Rudeness In Dogs (why Your Da Dog, May Not Actually Be Da)

Discussion in 'General Dog Training' started by sara, May 20, 2012.

  1. running_dog Honored Member

    I wonder if there are any to copy and paste (in context) that I haven't already copied and pasted. She used a shorthand form ONCE otherwise the aggressive non-aggressive breed term was qualified every time.

    "Typically" is an adjective used to mean "normal", "characteristic" and/or "having the characteristics popularly associated with something"

    Like a border collie is "typically" a high energy breed some breeds are typically less likely to show normal dog behaviour that is associated with aggression, in fact the author takes a whole paragraph to point that out and the fact that there are exceptions in every breed. She is talking about normal spectrum aggression not genetic aggression.

    But I've already said all this before... this discussion is pointless. You have convinced me that will just never agree ;) .

    You are reading something in this article that try as I might I simply can't see :confused: .

    And you can't see what I am reading :confused: .

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    well, we can agree to disagree.;) Thanks for reading my replies.

    Still, my open invite stands, for you or Sara to come stay with me a week, and learn what a da dog IS actually like! :D
  3. sara Moderator

    You dont think I know DA dogs? I've worked with many, including my own. I've rehabbed DA dogs, and I'm apprenticing with someone who specialized in rehabbing aggressive dogs. I just saw one of her successes at class the other day... A rez dog that used to attack every dog it met. after alot of serious work and rehab, the dog is perfectly safe with strange dogs. I cant say what her behaviour was like originally, as I never met her before, but I believe the behaviourist. You wont agree that it was DA, as she was rehabbed, and that's against your theory, but she certainly used to attack and ask questions later.

    And I do read your posts, I just dont have time to pick apart everything like Rdog did, and when I've tried previously, you mistook almost everything I said, so I generally dont even worry about it anymore.

    We will have to agree to disagree :) This article was never about your dog specifically, and not about DA dogs specifically, it was about people mistaking dogs that are correcting rudeness for DA. Sorry you didn't get anything from the article.
    Adrianna & Calvin likes this.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    OH, Sara, like i've said many many times, i totally believe A)a shy dog OR a "normal" dog,
    who has either been taught/abused/mismanaged to escalate to the point of dog-aggression, CAN BE rehabbed, "what a dog learns, he can UNlearn" (not always super easy, but, can be done).
    and i have said many many times,
    that i totally believe,
    B)a shy dog who has escalated to include aggression towards other DOGS can be rehabbed back off of targetting dogs, i sure do believe that. I think your Oliver might agree, as well.:D

    Not all dogs who display aggression towards dogs are "da dogs", Sara.:rolleyes: like your article points out.:ROFLMAO:

    A shy dog is born SHY, not aggressive.
    but, is super prone to develop to develop aggression towards humans, and can even escalate to aggression to include other dogs, as well, but, most shy dogs DO get on well with other dogs, or can be readily be brought to get on with other dogs if they don't already.
    {exception, is a shy dog who is living with a da dog---that's a real hotmess there}


    Neither of those (A or B, above) is same as a da dog, Sara.

    I also always say, and truly believe, even da dogs can be made better,
    or worse.
    I even believe shy dogs can be made better, :eek: even about their primary target of humans, too, i do believe even shy dogs or fearful dogs, can be desensitized/reduced down a few notches, to several notches. I always say "never give up on your dog."

    and it's not just "my" theory, that da dogs,
    and shy dogs,
    will be da dogs,
    or shy dogs,
    to one extent or another, for life.
    as they do have a neurobiological disorder.
    Again, their brains are NOT like "normal" dogs, on MRI scanners. EVERY shy dog, and EVERY persistently da dog, had brain anomalies in the MRI/P.E.T scans, which were never ever seen in even one (1) "normal" dogs brain.

    and it's not just "my" theory, that 'normal' dogs who HAVE been abused/neglected/mishandled,
    to the point of aggression, can be rehabbed back, to their default "normal brained behavior" like 95% of Michael Vick's dogs proved.

    but, wait a minute, if you, Sara, want to give "me" credit for either notion, i'll TAKE IT!!:D:ROFLMAO:
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"This article was never about your dog specifically"//

    duh. :ROFLMAO: :LOL: :rolleyes:
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"and not about DA dogs specifically, it was about people mistaking dogs that are correcting rudeness for DA."//


    yes, i understood that, like i've repeated endlessly,ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz, but, the author herself refers to "most cases" of dog aggression, not MY words, but HER words,

    and i still object to the author going overboard to suggest that "Most" of the cases of dog-aggression is just "stupid" humans.
  7. running_dog Honored Member

    I'm sorry Tigerlily, I agree we are never going to agree on this one. :rolleyes:

    One other thing I am sorry about, I thought it would be so easy to explain the author's meaning when she says "most cases" but seems I just can't be explaining it right... still, as the single relevant use of "most cases" in the article has been mentioned several times, (I know there is only one relevant use, I searched the article for the phrase) maybe anyone reading along can cope with reading my explanation just one more time...

    In most cases, the true problem - the rude dog and rude owner who allowed his dog to be rude - is not even noticed or addressed.”

    In most cases of what? She does not say at all in this sentence, it could be most cases of elephants dancing a waltz for all the information the sentence gives :LOL: .

    The only way we can know what the author is talking about is to read the context, emphasis added is mine.

    "Sadly, normal behavior is quickly labeled "problem" behavior, and the dog is now a "problem dog." Depending on the skill and awareness of the trainer or instructor, the dog may be merely puzzled or irritated by well meaning attempts to desensitize or re-condition the behavior or actually punished quite severely using any number of horrific and senseless techniques.

    In Beckett's case, a lack of understanding nearly cost him his life. Had I not intervened, his extremely uninformed owner would have had him put to sleep as aggressive. In most cases, the true problem - the rude dog and rude owner who allowed his dog to be rude - is not even noticed or addressed.”

    She is talking about "normal behavior"
    behavior "labeled problem behavior"
    "Beckett's case" (a dog that was incorrectly labelled as aggressive for displaying normal behavior)
    and notes that his owner would have through lack of understanding had him put to sleep as aggressive.

    Nowhere in the context of this use of "most cases" does the implication of "real" dog aggression appear. In fact the dogs that the author has most clearly excluded from this use of "most cases" are aggressive dogs (whatever her definition of these is).

    Whatever the authors failings (and I agree she is not perfect :rolleyes:) she is not guilty of saying that in most cases of dog aggressive dogs reacting it is the fault of another dog anymore than she is guilty of saying that in most cases of elephants waltzing the cause is a rude dog. :)

    And now I quit! :sleep:
    sara likes this.
  8. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    I have read this article before some time ago. Overall I think the author makes some salient points. I didn't think she was dismissing the idea of genuine DA existing at all; rather simply not addressing it as it was beyond the scope of the article (at least that is what I am giving her credit for :)) . Truly DA dogs as TL mentioned cannot be rehabbed. They can be managed - taught to ignore other dogs, focus on handler and properly contained; but that's about it. As you can imagine, DA and all the various forms of DA behavior along the continum are hot button issues on the pit bull forums.

    I think what I like about the article is that it implies DA is not just the dog's problem; and it isn't a reason to label your dog defective, kill it and go on to the next. In general there are many factors that go into why a dog displays certain behaviors and it is on the owner to try to understand, figure out what is making their own dog tick and then devise appropriate interventions. Yes, sometimes DA behavior occurs because dogs are under-socialized, lack appropriate social skills, other dogs are rude, they have learned the behavior, etc - and rehab is possible.

    My definiton of true DA is a genetic propensity towards the behavior, a behavior that needs no triggers and that is executed with lethal intent. I think if you have one of those dogs, if you have any common sense you realize it pretty damn quickly and hopefully wouldn't let anyone talk you into interventions that would put other people's dogs at risk and set yours up to be euth'ed. I think the article would have been more well rounded if a cautionary statement was thrown in about the existence of pure DA and the dangers of trying to "rehab" a dog with this type of issue.

    I really like the advice she offers at the end and her Do's and Dont's. The way I am reading it, it does show some awareness that there are some dogs that are just not going to be social because she talks about knowing your own dog and it's limitations, and respecting them to include adjusting your own expectations even if that means accepting your dog cannot do what you had hoped.

    My current dog is reactive. She has been such a hodge podge of contradictory behaviors towards dogs since she was a puppy that she has had multiple trainers stumped and in disagreement. I have heard everything from "she is dog friendly, I'm the one with the problem, I'm letting myself be swayed by stigma and affecting her behavior" to "she's a DA pit bull and I have no business dragging her into a class around other dogs because I'm just stressing her out". And thank God I got some even keeled middle of the road advice in between.

    Ultimately I had to figure out my own dog and take little pieces of advice that were useful and seemed to fit, and toss out the rest. My dog is definitely way more complicated than the scenarios addressed...but I figure the article is on the generic side, introducing the topic but not going into all the nuances.

    With my dog it is a 2 way street. Yes, rude behavior on the part of other dogs will most definitely set her head spinning like that poor little girl in The Exorcist. But the main problem lies with my dog. She is both fearful and self important with other dogs. She lacks social skills (We say she has Aspbergers), she is pushy and rude and oblivious to the signals of other dogs and then extremely quick to take offense and act like the injured party when called out on her rudeness. She is not in my mind DA because despite her at times (in the past) very impressive displays of "psychotic, vicious, lunging, snarling, spittle flying" behavior - she never ever tried to hurt another dog. She has never so much as scraped another dog with her tooth. Of course as time went on, we started limiting her access and opportunites to interact with other dogs...but her behavior has always been "I don't know what to do, get away from me or how dare you talk that way to me" never "I want to bite and attack you".


    Do I think that in the right set of circumstances all that could change in a heart beat and those breed specific tendencies could get triggered? Yeah, I do - I've seen inklings. I would never put my dog in that position, and I would never put someone else's dog at risk. So even though she isn't DA; that doesn't mean there's the possibility to rehab her to the point where she could intereact safely around other dogs.

    Certain dogs, on leash with intense supervision - absolutely; and she loves it. Right now she has 1 doggy friend. Sadly there are few takers who want to allow V. time to get used to and comfortable with their dog and then settle for just leash walks with occasional bouts of on-leash play interrupted with cool down periods.
    Adrianna & Calvin likes this.
  9. sara Moderator

    I certainly would! Oliver's very much the same way :) Except he always reacts to strange dogs on a one on one situation, especially when off leash, but walk him with that dog, slowly getting closer and closer, and that dog will be Ollie's buddy for life! His best bud was a Pitty who was bred for fighting. He had an EXTREMELY strong prey drive that was directed into an EXTREMELY strong ball drive. Rocky did attack (and injure) a few dogs for seemingly no reason, though I never witnessed those attacks, but he totally ignored Oliver when they first met, until Ollie realized he wasn't going to hurt him. They became best buddies, and loved nothing better than a running game of keep away :)
    [IMG]

    Oliver's aggression stems from fear of the unknown. Strange people and dogs cause immediate reactions, though since I've had him he's never bit any human, and has never caused injury to other dogs, though he's had a couple of "scuffles". It's like he cant read intent, which is strange as he was living peacefully in a pack when he was a puppy one the streets of a poor, Houston, TX, neighbourhood. He must immediately look big and mean, so the other dog/human will not hurt him. And on leash, he is a nightmare, however off leash, I think he'd be fine.

    But once he knows a dog? he wouldn't hurt that dog. He LOVES playing with other dogs. I'm able to foster no issue. He's perfectly fine if I bring a dog into my house.

    Our dogs would probably get along famously! (after awhile :whistle: ) If we weren't on opposite sides of the continent, and in different countries! LOL
    bekah1001 likes this.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //

    She is talking about "normal behavior"
    behavior "labeled problem behavior"//

    Yes, i've agreed with this, ZZZZZZZZzzzzz so many many times. Beating me over the head with it will not further your point, as i've already agreed a bazillion times with this point, from my 1st post after i read the article,
    and frankly, i'm baffled why you repeat this over and over and over. If you want to ignore the fact, that this author never ever once mentions nor separates out true da dogs, from those owned stupid humans, in her suggestions over and over, that most da dogs are simply 'normal' dogs being mistreated/mislabelled by "ignorant" "stupid" "fools", that is your choice to do so.
    whatever.

    //In most cases of what?.....it could be most cases of elephants dancing a waltz//
    rofl, oh come onnnnnnn, this article is about dogs being labelled as aggressive, and you go off pretending she might be referring to "most cases" of elephants dancing. Sorry, i can't debate at that level of far-fetched "reasoning". sorry. Especially odd, when you later post it in context, and it becomes clear, the author is talking about dogs being owned by "stupid" humans, not dancing elephants, yet you put forth dancing elephants as a possibility. Sorry, i really AM losing you, and if you want to accuse me of not understanding you, i will concede, i now have no idea some of what you are saying anymore. at all. :ROFLMAO:

    I'm not sure the 36 point fonts are helping make your points seem more logical, but, if it makes you feel better, guess it's fine. I just hope your font size does not reflect you yourself are somehow emotionally upset that i disagreed with this author's "conclusion" that most cases of DA dogs, (and Sara's remark "a lot of" cases of da dogs,) are just stupid humans who can't properly intervene or interpret. It's not worth getting emotionally upset over, imo. I don't fully understand your emotional investment into my different point of view on this article. (IF your 30 point fonts indicate that, i am not sure)

    Did you read my post about i can disagree, and still like, even love someone, that to me, liking someone does not require we agree on every idea? (when you accused me of "hating", and i wrote back, nah, i just disagree and challenge this author's conclusion that most da dogs are really just 'normal' dogs owned by stupid humans, nothing whatsoever with "hating":rolleyes: )

    but, back to dogs being owned by stupid humans----------like i stated earlier-
    I don't think most dogs become aggressive even when handled by stupid humans, i don't. Some will, yes!! YES!
    and Especially a shy dog, or a da dog, if mishandled, will become far worse, no question.
    but most don't, or, we'd have the vast bulk of dogs being da dogs, since most humans really don't know a lot about dogs.:rolleyes: Most dogs have probably have had their leashes yanked around, or been scolded out, and yet, still most dogs still love everyone and everydog.


    But many to most 'normal' dogs can survive even horrible abuse and neglect, and still love everyone and every dog. 1000s of examples of this, happy to post articles on this, or tons of individual articles to prove my point there.
    so i also disagree with that notion itself, that most cases of da dogs are result of abuse/neglect/lack of socialization, etc etc.


    So so many of my replies, you did not reply to, but, i won't keep reposting my posts that you have not even replied to at all, or, continue to disagree with, (or possibly do now agree with),
    over and over
    and over.

    interesting. but that's fine, hope you at least read them. I thought i made some very good points in my replies, when i went through your posts, line by line, reading your replies carefully as you requested i should, but, you didn't reply again to those comments, so whatever.
    Just that one comment, over and over, about dogs can be mishandled/mislabeled, which i have agreed with all along.

    //And now I quit!//
    You say that, Rdog, but, then you continue to post and repost, that the author talked about dogs being improperly labelled as da dogs,
    again
    and
    again,
    over
    and
    over
    and
    over
    and
    over,
    which i agreed to, from my very 1st post after i'd read the article, and from then on, stated this probably a dozen times by now. What can i say that will convince you,
    that i do recognize,
    and agree,
    that some dogs are both mismanaged, and mislabeled?

    Can you recognize or hear me, that i DO agree with that point, or, what? why do you keep repeating and reposting that line, or idea,
    over and over and over and over and over? I am baffled why you don't seem to realize, i have agreed, all along, from page one onwards, that yes, dogs are mishandled/mislabelled, and yes, the author does discuss a few dogs who have been mislabelled or mishandled. That is not, and never was, the partS i disagreed with.

    It'd be like, if i kept saying that remark to you, Rdog, kept posting to you, in a 36 point font,
    RDOG---THE AUTHOR SAID "DOGS CAN BE MISUNDERSTOOD/MISLABELLED"!!
    like 10 times.

    and each time, you WOULD agree with that notion,
    yet, i'd keep reposting it to you, for days, over and over, as if you were arguing with it.

    but, whatever.
    but mostly I agree, i do not understand some of your remarks anymore. Some of your remarks, sure i sure do, but, stuff like the elephant reference, i don't see why you said that one, for example. sorry, and thank you for the discussion.
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Interesting post, Veronica, and i agree with most of what you say.
    I empathize with the misinformation and even blame, you have faced, as the owner of a dog with issues.

    //My definiton of true DA is a genetic propensity towards the behavior, a behavior that needs no triggers and that is executed with lethal intent. I think if you have one of those dogs, if you have any common sense you realize it pretty damn quickly and hopefully wouldn't let anyone talk you into interventions that would put other people's dogs at risk and set yours up to be euth'ed//


    I am not sure lethal intent is req'd for a dog to be a da dog, but, i otherwise like your definition. If lethal means "to the death" level of fighting, i would disagree that all da dogs have urge to killthe unknown dogs, many may have the urge to just fight them and make them leave.


    Many many ppl like to lump in da behavior with prey behavior,:rolleyes:
    but i don't. My da dogs reaction and approach to an unknown dog is not like his swift and silent zooming approach to a bunny.
    at all. A few similarities, but, a LOT of differences!!
    My dog bolts, silently, at bunnies full speed, with total abandon, and goes instantly and directly into full speed immediate biting attack on the bunny, no snarls, no growls, no creature-to-creature signalling prior.
    ^Which is NOT his reaction, or approach, at all, to unknown dogs. Da behavior is not prey behavior, :rolleyes: imo.


    //I think the article would have been more well rounded if a cautionary statement was thrown in about the existence of pure DA and the dangers of trying to "rehab" a dog with this type of issue.//
    I agree.
    I don't know if i fully agree rehabbing da dogs is "dangerous", but, i would certainly agree, a person who just guesses how to rehab a da dog could indeed, pose great dangers, to himself, to his dog, to other dogs, and to other humans who may become involved.


    //. She lacks social skills (We say she has Aspbergers)//
    I have often wanted to say, i think my dog has dog-autism, (aspbergers is considered a subset of some of the autistic disorders) but i worried i'd be attacked by ppl with autistic human relatives. I have some autistic relatives, as well. Autism is inborn, although not immediately apparent at birth, similar to da disorder, which does not usually manifest at birth, but not until about 9 mos old in most da dogs.(varies a bit, though)
    When da first begins to manifest, it is not usually with bites, but, just "displays" like you described. but yeah, Both disorders also impede successful interaction with others of their own species, there are some similarities, i see your point.

    My da dog has very good social skills, if he KNOWS the other dog. It is not lack of social skills for my da dog, and most da dogs also play nicely with their housemate dogs, or dogs they KNOW.

    //.She is not in my mind DA because despite her at times (in the past) very impressive displays of "psychotic, vicious, lunging, snarling, spittle flying" behavior - she never ever tried to hurt another dog. She has never so much as scraped another dog with her tooth. Of course as time went on, we started limiting her access and opportunities to interact with other dogs.//

    This, to me, might reflect wise and proper and careful, ongoing management on your part,
    not that this dog is not a da dog. I have an alcoholic uncle, if i put him on a desert island, where he can not get any alcohol, one could say, "Look, Bill is not alcoholic, he doesn't drink at all."
    but, it's just Bill has no access to manifest his alcoholism. (maybe poor analogy, as i am uncertain if alcoholism is genetic anomaly or not, but, you get idea what i meant)

    But, you know your dog, not me, so maybe you are right, maybe your dog is not a da dog. If your criteria for a da dog requires that the dog has to have inserted a tooth into another dog, then, by that criteria, your dog is not a da dog.
    Many dogs may have actually bitten another dog, to the point of stitches, (like this author's dogs did) yet, still not be da dogs.
    My dog has not bitten another dog in years now,
    still, i have no question in my mind, buddy IS still a da dog, and that my dog, like your dog, doesn't actually fight or bite unknown dogs---- because i control his lil world for him, and prevent such incidents.

    //Do I think that in the right set of circumstances all that could change in a heart beat and those breed specific tendencies could get triggered? Yeah, I do - I've seen inklings. //

    Yes, i bet you have. It's wonderful that you have prevented such actual fights, and limit his opportunities to escalate into full on fight.



    //So even though she isn't DA; that doesn't mean there's the possibility to rehab her to the point where she could intereact safely around other dogs.//

    I completely agree, 100%. Not all dogs are cureable, but, most can be reduced down.
    My dog is da dog, i have no qualms using the "A" word. I can and have rehabbed my dog to safely be around other dogs--------one dog at a time.

    Most any dog i have regular access to, i can almost always successfully desensitize Buddy to, with a few exceptions.
    some of buddy's friends took year or more, some only a few weeks. And since Buddy HAS made some doggie pals, now, he occasionally, (well rarely is probably more accurate)
    spontaneously likes a dog on sight----instantly---no work req'd on my part at all.
    This is always a huge exciting moment for me, but, it can happen.
    (of course, i severely limit Buddy's access to unknown dogs, it's not like, he is at dog parks, etc)
    But i have taken the time, to desensitize Buddy to all the dogs in his world, like our friends' dogs, our neighbors' dogs, our relatives' dogs, etc etc.

    Since Buddy has made some dog friends, every once in a blue moon, Buddy will now spontaneously "like" a dog on sight!

    Just like, i hear owners of shy dogs mention with great joy and excitement, that every once in a blue moon, their shy dog may occasionally accept some unknown human right off the bat, with no effort from owner. Doesn't happen often, and i often suspect, when that does happen, that that human may have used marvelous body language, whether on purpose, or by chance, to convery "i am no threat" and helped the shy dog accept that one (1) person. but, who knows.

    My dog, like most DA dogs, reacts to most of the UNKNOWN dogs,
    not dogs he has been helped to get to "know". My da dog, who is undeniably a da dog, makes new friends, loves his old pals now for a few years now. My da dog has lovely social skills, and play very successfully with dogs he KNOWS.


    He is not pushy, nor dominant, nor overly submissive, is actually fairly laid back personality-wise, in his doggie play. He takes turns with 'tag' and other games dogs play, just fine.

    He even communicates successfully when he is done playing, without aggression. You'd think he was normal.
    0701091633a.jpg


    For example, a greyhound mix pal of Buddy's, can run for hours, even on hot days, my dog can't keep up on hot days. When Buddy lies down, to rest, the greyhound comes over and tries evvvvverything to get Buddy to get up and chase him some more, even humps on Buddy as he lies there. Buddy stand up, barks once at greyhound to stop humping him, and lies back down,
    as opposed to attacking the greyhound, or using "lethal" force. And the greyhound DOES understand Buddy, and gives up, so i am guessing Buddy was both successful, and not aggressive, in telling the other dog to leave him rest a moment.

    still, if i left Buddy alone with an UNKNOWN dog, there'd probably be blood, it'd get real ugly, real fast, i'd bet.
    It's not lack of social skills for my da dog, and for many other da dogs, who CAN and DO interact appropriately with their housemate dogs, or their doggie friends, and dogs they KNOW.

    some ppl even say, "My dog is not a da dog, cuz he gets on well with my mom's dog, or my other dogs." etc. (lots of ppl are loathe to use the "A" word, it's very common)
    but a point so so so often overlooked when discussing da dogs is,
    and shy dogs,
    is----------- it is the UNKNOWN creatures that they react to.
    I sort of wish more owners of da dogs were aware, YES, even a da dog can be helped to make doggie pals. Yes, yes, it has to be approached carefully, and knowledgably, no question, that is so true, but, it can be done.
    The bummer part for me, was, when i first was able to help Buddy make some new friends,:D
    i sort of thought that could be a sign he could be "cured", but, i have since learned,
    that Buddy will continue to go through the world, "one dog at a time".
    Buddy does NOT generalize dogs, so Buddy deciding he likes Max,:D
    does not help Buddy when he meets Frito.:mad: To Buddy, Frito is an UNKNOWN dog, and is about 90% chance, Buddy will NOT like Frito.

    but, Buddy is doing the best he can, with the brain he has.
  12. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    I know it sounds like it should be the other way around...but actually I'm Jazzy...and the dog is Veronica.:LOL: I'm actually Johnna, but I use Jazzy on every forum I'm on. My initials w/ my maiden name were JAZ.

    //I am not sure lethal intent is req'd for a dog to be a da dog, but, i otherwise like your definition. If lethal means "to the death" level of fighting, i would disagree that all da dogs have urge to killthe unknown dogs, many may have the urge to just fight them and make them leave.//

    I guess by lethal intent; I mean intent to do significant damage. Not just a show of teeth and posturing, or mouthing that leaves a barely visibly scratch; but intent to attack and bite and do some damage.

    Perhaps I am stuck in the pit bull mentality where so many people talk of their DA dogs as fully intending to kill any dog they get their paws on. Then I think of Veronica; and I think..."well...if that's DA...then she really isn't very good at it...because she doesn't intend to hurt anyone". We've had her since she was 10 weeks old, so over the years she had allot of time and opportunity to interact with other dogs before things started to go south. And then when it went, it wasn't like a switch, and even trainers were confused...so she still had opportunities to interact with other dogs. If she had ever hurt or bitten another dog or even really acted like she meant business and was going to...I would have stopped interactions a long time before I did...but she was just so damn confusing. So I go back to: 1. She really had plenty of opportunity to hurt another dog if she were so inclined, and it never happened and 2. Her behavior (which we have worked on with LAT, ignore, focus on me, making sure she has her space, etc.) has always seemed full of sound and fury but amounting to nothing. I used to joke that she couldn't possibly bite another dog, she can't keep her mouth shut long enough".:oops: Also and this is interesting, sometimes she will still react to other dogs if they get too close to her; but if she sees an off leash dog or a dog she thinks means business - she shuts her mouth, focuses on me and proves she really has taken all her lessons to heart - she really doesn't want a fight. I think of DA dogs as wanting a fight. Again maybe that's the mindset I picked up on the pit bull forums; but I think of a DA dog as wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.

    // I have often wanted to say, i think my dog has dog-autism, (aspbergers is considered a subset of some of the autistic disorders) but i worried i'd be attacked by ppl with autistic human relatives. //

    The reason I say it's like she has a doggy version of Aspbergers is because it seems to fit V. perfectly. People with Aspberger's have deficits specifically in the areas of social intereactions, because they aren't able to pick up on social cues, they can't read other people or their emotions so then they don't respond as expected. Veronica has never had good doggy social skills. Even as a puppy, all the adult dogs I had access to HATED her. I tried to socialize her but they wanted no part of her. She was rude, pushy, in your face and oblivious to corrections. A dog could growl at her and snap in her face and she's keep coming like it never even happened. The adult dogs would give up and actually run away from her, so I had to intervene because she was harassing them.

    And she has stayed this way. She thought she could do whatever she wanted to another dog and that dog should shut up and let her do it - sniff, lick, and poke it relentlessly, and then put her head over it's neck". If V. could do as she pleased all would be grand. The problem arose when the other dog indicated that perhaps she had overstepped her bounds and then would come her display of growling and snarling...but never ever trying to bite...just running her mouth...for all the world sounding like she was berating the other dog for being so rude to her. :rolleyes: I really think V. would like to interact with other dogs but doesn't know how. I think she can, as you said about Buddy - learn one dog at a time - but for V. it has to be the right dog...and we just don't have many (like none really) opportunities.

    V. also like buddy; does not generalize to other dogs if she makes a friend with a particular dog.

    It think there is so much variation among individual dogs, each dog really requires it's own individualized assessment and treatment plan.

    I will end with a picture. @ 2 years ago now I started chatting with someone on a pit bull forum who was having some issues w/ their dog and lo and behold...they lived 20 minutes away from me. They knew all about V.'s issues from the forum, and were willing to meet us anyway. By the end of an hour walk V. was able to sniff and kiss their dog. She also would still periodically growl at him and try to jump on his head; but they knew it was "her" and weren't freaked out by her behavior, their dog was really laid back and good with V.; and eventually through more and more time spent with him she got more comfortable and more appropriate with him.

    However we would never consider off leash play. This is where we have seen inklings of play getting too rough, someone getting too aroused and the next thing you know you can hear it in the vocalizations that someone just switched from playing to being seriously ticked off. That is when we separate them and have a cool down period. If they were off leash...I don't think it would end so well.

    But here is Veronica with her beau of 2 years; Socrates:
    [IMG]

    Dinner date:
    [IMG]

    Matching outerwear (he bought her the coat for Christmas)
    [IMG]
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    so sorry about the dog name, and your name getting mixed up by me! :rolleyes: I tend to do that!


    //"Perhaps I am stuck in the pit bull mentality where so many people talk of their DA dogs as fully intending to kill any dog they get their paws on"//

    oh, okay, gotcha. Yes, there is a lot of talk about pitties having been bred to have a different ability/tendency, that once on attack, will fight to the death of the other creature. Pitties so often get a bad rap as a breed, but don't even make top five breeds responsible for bites to humans. The breed who bites most humans in USA is golden retriever.
    (i suspect, that stat is due to GRs are breed most often set among children, besides, being a wildly popular breed, more GRs = more chance a dog biting a person could be a GR.) These stats do not separate out perfectly normal GRs who were provoked beyond any other option, is just a plain cold bite count.

    The pitties do, however, slide in at #1 on most lists, of dogs who kill humans. I think, that is where pitties get a bad rap. Mind you, the number of pitties who have killed a human, is probably like 0.01% of all pitties, not some rampant thing, but, it always makes the news when this happens. I've read that pitties were bred to continue to bite to the death, whereas most breeds don't have that "to the death" thing when fighting.
    Maybe maybe this is what you meant by "lethal" and "pitbull" mindset, cuz, some pits will continue on to the death if they escalate or are ordered to fight.
    But, the overwhelming majority of pitties are lovebugs, and get on fine with humans and dogs.

    But, dog-aggression,
    or shyness (which can escalate to development of fear-aggression to humans, and sometimes, and some shy dogs can even escalate to aggression towards dogs as well)
    can strike any breed. Any breed of dog can be a shy dog, or be a da dog.

    A chihuahua to a great dane, and everything in between, can be struck with either shyness,
    or dog-aggression. It's not a breed thing, but, most ppl do think of their dog's breed as part of his da behavior, but, most da dogs seem to all be a lot alike, regardless of breed.

    A da chihuahua would most likely behave just like my da border collie. I've watched other da dogs in action, and watched tons of videos and read a lot of descriptions of da dog behavior, and it all sounds a lot alike to me, just like my Buddy.

    On boards for owners of aggressive dogs, there is always huge variety in the reported behavior of shy dogs, from mild to severe, (and even here on DTA, the owners of shy dogs report a variety of levels of shyness from mild to severe)

    but, the da dogs all pretty much sound a lot the same, some spectrum there, but, we all recognize each other's descriptions.
    Buddy USED TO be a whirling dervish spinning madly at the end of his leash, smack outa his mind, in total frenzy, almost seizure-ish, almost expect foamy mouths, real extreme stuff when i first met him, reacted to dogs 500 feet away. Buddy even bit humans back then, too, he had escalated to diffuse, generalized aggression onto humans as well. (he loves all humans now)

    and now, his reactions, if he reacts at all, to unknown dogs are down to a bark, not even a lunge now. OH, he'd probably re-escalate if i let him, sure, he could become a total maniac again, i bet he could. For my dog, it seems to sort of take some ongoing type of management to keep him reduced down to just barks. He is by no means "cured" and never will be, probably.

    a few da dogs are better due to rehab efforts, a few da dogs a lil worse due to owner mismanagement,
    but, the bulk of them all sound a lot the same, the pattern and behaviors are a lot the same, much in common there, it seems.
    not like shy dogs, who seem to have a bigger spectrum, not all shy dogs are aggressive, either, some just duck away and display avoidance moves, not aggression.


    I don't think da dogs necessarily want to kill other unknown dogs, but would probably end up in a fight, and probably do want other dog to leave. Like many owners of da dogs, I myself joke around about Buddy wanting to kill other dogs, or being honked off some dog is being allowed to live, but i've never considered that someone reading it thinks i literally meant "to the death"....wow, now i wonder how many ppl i've confused in the past.:eek: Maybe i should stop joking about my dog wants to kill other dogs. A lot of owners of da dogs say that same thing, more as an expression, i see that all the time, too.
    but, i don't sense that is Buddy's main objective is murder, and i don't truly believe Buddy would fight to the death of the other dog, but, i don't know that for sure. I say it more as a joke. One thing owners of da dogs need, is a sense of humor. but, now i will probably have to rethink it next time i joke my dog wanting to commit first-degree murder, etc.

    but, there is no doubt, that my Buddy definitely would and could harm the other dog, he isn't the least bit afraid to challenge or attack another dog,
    as do most da dogs if they are allowed to escalate to that point, most da dogs would probably end up in a fight of some type, whether severe or not too bad, i do think, most da dogs, if left with unknown dogs and no rules, no interventions, just on their own, would probably end up fighting.

    And maybe owners of da pitbulls, maybe they do have a different level of concern, maybe they are not joking when they say "Buffy wants to kill Max."
    never thought about that.

    (but prior to some rehab, Buddy was far worse back then, wayyy worse, than he is now, NOW i do sense some hesitation to escalate and some reduction in his approach, years of "Let's Go" seem to be messing up "his style" a bit:ROFLMAO: ). And that is if Buddy reacts at all, a lot of the time i can get Buddy to walk by unknown dogs calmly. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.




    I should keep records to see what % of the time, my efforts to get him to walk calmly past unknown dogs do work, and what % my efforts don't work. I'd guess it'd probably be about 60% to 75% success, which, is good, and it gets better each year. But, i don't expect 100% success and am pretty stoked with that progress, from how he used to be.
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //had her since she was 10 weeks old, so over the years she had allot of time and opportunity to interact with other dogs before things started to go south. And then when it went, it wasn't like a switch, and even trainers were confused...so she still had opportunities to interact with other dogs.//

    Yet Another well socialized dog who developed issues about other dogs. Lots of ppl try to say da dogs are result of not socialized, or improper socialization, but, there are a lot of owners of da dogs who did socialize their dogs.

    How old was Veronica when she first began to display some unwanted behaviors or reactions to unknown dogs? do you remember?

    Yeah, i hear from others, it is more a progression, the first few signs of da behavior, can be missed, written off to the other dog, bad day, etc etc. (mine was in full bloom when i met him, so i did not get to witness this escalation as the dog reaches maturity, but, i've heard about it)
    It's not like you have perfectly normal dog, who suddenly begins to full on fight one day and every day from then on. It is a progression, usually beginning with displays, a pattern is becoming evident.
    and again, if dog is mostly around dogs he KNOWS, that can mess up when one notices it, too.

    //. If she had ever hurt or bitten another dog or even really acted like she meant business and was going to...I would have stopped interactions a long time before I did...but she was just so damn confusing//

    But you have stopped interactions, or are in very careful control of V's interactions now. so, it might be, that if you were not, you might find out things you don't want to know about Veronica. Maybe just as well to do it this way, if it comforts you to think she is not a da dog. (and she might not be!!!!!!!!!! you are probably right! maybe V is just a rude dog not a da dog).
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //1. She really had plenty of opportunity to hurt another dog if she were so inclined, and it never happened//


    then, if you do not think V would aggress to unknown dog,
    then the reason you restrict V's access to unknown dogs,
    because..........?
    (not that i don't think you are doing right thing, i'm just interested)
    it sort of sounds like, you had a da dog in the making, but arrested the full display from ever happening, but, who knows, and now carefully and wisely control your dog's access to unknown dogs.
    Most da dogs don't have trouble with other dogs til they approach maturity. Many were socialized, and no probs in their puppy times, til they get to be about 9mos to 12 mos old, a few scragglers a lil older. I've heard of a few owners who said they noticed da when their dog was only 7 or 8 mos old, too. so there is some variety.

    Shy dogs can escalate to dog-aggression at any age, if not managed well or if severe case of shyness, and can be DE-escalated back off of dog aggression, as well, but, that is not same disorder as da dogs. but most ppl think a shy dog who also reacts to dogs is same disorder as da dogs.
    but their brains are different on MRIs, shy dogs and da dogs.
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //I used to joke that she couldn't possibly bite another dog, she can't keep her mouth shut long enough".//

    lol, my dog, can also bark his head off, but, i still see him as a da dog.

    //but if she sees an off leash dog or a dog she thinks means business - she shuts her mouth, focuses on me and proves she really has taken all her lessons to heart - she really doesn't want a fight. I think of DA dogs as wanting a fight. Again maybe that's the mindset I picked up on the pit bull forums; but I think of a DA dog as wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.//

    I think of da dogs as wanting to fight or having reactions
    cuz of their neurobiological disorder. Not like, cuz they find joy in fighting. If there is one word that does not fit my dog's behavior when he is having a reaction, it's "happy". He's not doing this reaction for fun, nor for love of fighting. I'd bet my dog has that same neurobiological disorder seen every da dog they've ever put into a MRI scanner. It's probably almost a reflexive thing for my dog.

    Nowadays, my dog is also much better with offleash dogs,
    and is also better if HE is offleash, as well. I still think my dog is a da dog.

    I kind of sort of see that leash thing as sort of holding my hand (the leash) is protecting him to fully indulge in bully behavior, :rolleyes: Buddy must know by now, that he is NOT going to get to fight if he is on leash, it's never happened, never will. It's like consequence free taunting the other dog, "Ey, you wanna piece of me?" :mad: kinda thing, when Buddy knows i will remove him.
    there i go again, with the da humor, just a joke mostly.
    PLus, leashes do mess up some dogs ability to communicate well with other dogs.


    Off leash, Buddy is a bit better, less aggressive, less reactive, and sometimes, once leashed up, Buddy THEN turns to other dog, "Ey, you wanna piece of me!?" after he is safely on leash again.:rolleyes:



    My da dog also loves rude dogs, those "in your face" dogs, Buddy adores them. Go figure. there are a few other types of dogs, that buddy is more likely to accept, such as a the true alpha dogs, (wow, my dog is like a saint if a real alpha is the area) and Buddy likes young females, oddly likes small white fluffy dogs, (?)and confident easy going dogs are his favs.



    Buddy has his types he likes, and another list of types he hates most.

    Took me forever to sort the dogs out, but, Buddy's got his "types"!:LOL:




    //"It think there is so much variation among individual dogs, each dog really requires it's own individualized assessment and treatment plan"//

    I think that is true, but, i think da dogs do have much in common, and i think there are some things which i feel are detrimental to all da dogs, and some things i think are beneficial to all da dogs.
    Same for shy dogs, i think, even though there is a spectrum from mild to severely shy dogs,

    i think there are some things which are good ideas for all shy dogs,
    and some ideas i think are deterimental to all shy dogs.
    But you are right, all dogs are unique individuals, but, i think some things are always good for all dogs, and some things are bad for dogs.
  17. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    The photos of Veronica and Socrates are SO CUUUUUUUUTE!! LOve it!

    You must have been so so thrilled when V made friends with Socrates!! YESsss!! I love it when that happens!!
    It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right with V, too, sounds like V is so lucky she has ended up with a lovely person like you! I am sure you are helping V be her best possible self!! KUDOS to you!
  18. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    The interesting thing about V. is that allot of the time I can walk her past another dog and no one will know she's reactive b/c she has the look at me, get your treats down pretty good - but she is still anything but relaxed; I can feel her body practically singing with energy.

    My other replies in blue above.
  19. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    I am thinking maybe it is simply a matter of semantics. I don't doubt V. could possibly hurt another dog; and herself get hurt in the process. I guess I just think of genuine DA as a matter of intent and, (this is going to probably sound foolish) but it's not a matter of not wanting V. to be DA - I just don't want to sound like a drama queen; as I envision "real" DA dogs as being more intense, harder to manage, and more...lethal. I don't want to "over-react".

    And I think some of V.'s reactiveness is fear related...

    And I do think she would be better, maybe allot better if she had the opportunity to be around other dogs and could learn how to relax and behave...

    however at the end of the day, she has 1 dog friend and I wouldn't turn my back on her with him...so maybe for all intents and purposes she is DA.:unsure:
  20. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Love your posts, i don't even know what "game" means in reference to pitbulls. Off to google!:ROFLMAO:
    You sound like you are doing great job with V, too. I have found this whole experience to be sort of a journey, i really have, and i feel i have learned a lot in the process.
    If one has a da dog, and they can successfully walk it by another dog, it's like over the moon!
    I didn't really get that kind of buzz from walking my 'normal' dogs.

    Well, if if if V is a da dog, and she might not be, but if she is, it's not worst thing in the world, imo, and you are not alone, and this is still an "if" of course. I guess i better understand your meaning of the word "intent", i guess i go more by behavior/result. I can't say i'm always 100% sure of Buddy's inner intent, but, i'm pretty darn sure what the result will be, if i do not intervene.:ROFLMAO:

    Re; the puppy classes, well, Lots of da dogs are raised, socialized from birth on, by positive only pro trainers, animal behaviorists,(like author of "click to calm" raised up a da dog, first signs at 9 mos old btw) and da dogs who were raised by vets, knowledgeable dog ppl, had puppy classes and all, and still, the dog turns out to be da dog against all odds.

    A dog can be da dog, even if raised alongside several other dogs, 24/7, for it's whole life. The da dog would probably love all it's housemate dogs,(who all turned out 'normal') and yet, this one dog does grow up to be a da dog, as the dog approaches maturity, BAM, there it is. Okay, maybe it's not quite a BAM. :ROFLMAO: but more a progression into a persitently present aggressive reaction to most unknown dogs. There's some da dogs right here on DTA who live peaceably with their other housemate dogs, but, "hate" all the unknown dogs they pass on walks.

    So it's good to know it's not your fault, it sounds like you are doing great job with V.
    I think we humans sure can make a da dog better:)
    or worse,:oops:
    but, we can't 'create' one, (not a persistently da dog)
    nor can we 100% totally cure a da dog, either.

    does V like humans?

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