Rudeness In Dogs (why Your Da Dog, May Not Actually Be Da)

[sara]

A VERY interesting (and long) read!!!!

Alot of people feel their dog is DA, but might not actually be DA, just intolerant to rudeness!

http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/

 

[bekah1001]

The dog Cream reminds me of Brody. He does not like puppies at all. Manny, the puppy we used to have would bite Brody's mouth repetitively and Brody would growl at him. Huxley, a pup from Riley's litter, would jump over Brody and get into his space and now brody growls at him every time he goes close to him.

 

[tigerlily46514]

haven't read it yet,
but, my DA dog reacts to dogs who are asleep.
Yes, asleep.


.....dogs out of car windows who aren't even looking at Buddy.

........dogs far away, who have not even so much seen Buddy yet.


.......elderly dogs, walking away from my dog.

Buddy might even react to a dead dog, no idea, but, i wouldn't be surprised.

Anytime my dog spots an UNKNOWN dog,IF I DO NOTHING, then there is a good chance my dog will try to pick a fight with that dog. MY dog IS the rude dog.

Denying dog-aggression exists, and that it IS a disorder, which has physical abnormalities in those dog's brains (visible in MRI scanners) and in their bloodstreams, is not helpful, imo. Just like i think denying there are shy dogs, is not helpful, either. (shy dogs also have visible differences in their brains, and bloodstreams, too)


Also,
every once in a blue moon, Buddy loves an unknown dog on sight. This did not happen til i'd been working with desensitizing Buddy for years,
til after Buddy had some actual doggie pals that i'd worked to get Buddy to accept,
and it does happen more often now, that Buddy accepts an unknown dog on sight, no desensitization work needed.
okay, it's only happened a few times, but, still, i get terribley excited when this happens. There are only a FEW kinds of dogs Buddy will occasionally accept on sight, and rude dogs are one of those kinds.
but my whole point is--------
Buddy loves rude dogs.
Just adores them. Rude, in-your-face dogs, my dog loves 'em!! right off the bat, no questions asked. Maybe Buddy sees the rude dog as "speaking with same accent" as i always say. There are a few other types of dogs Buddy is likely to accept, but Rude Dogs Rule in my dog's opinion.
He's such a gangsta.
i'm just saying.
DA dogs may not be like people think, if you've never been around a true, neurobiologically abnormal DA dog.

And a DA dog is not like a shy dog who has escalated to diffuse, generalized aggression towards canines** also, it's NOT the same thing as a DA dog reactions. Also, **THIS is entirely curable.


Just like a DA dog, who has also escalated to diffuse, generalized aggression towards humans* also, it's NOT the same thing as a true shy dog's reactions. Also, *THIS is entirely curable.


Til you ever ever get to live with a DA dog, it IS very very hard for ppl who do not live with a DA dog to even imagine what owners of DA dogs are trying to describe.
There ARE da dogs out there, and they are actually not uncommon. Aggressive dogs are so persistently difficult to rehab, that aggression is THE NUMBER ONE REASON dogs are voluntarily euthanized in vet's offices....more than cancer
more than car accidents, more than any other reason, far and away, the #1 reason dogs are put down in vet's offices, is aggression.

but certainly NOT all reactions from dogs are inappropriate. Not at all. Even Buddy, a true DA dog, IS "right" now and then, when he objects to some dogs' behavior!! Just the other day, Buddy scolded another dog, and i said to my pal, "Ey, Buddy was right on that call, sure was. the other dog is wrong."
(Buddy especially dislikes hyper, spazzy dogs and shy, overly-submissive dogs)





now that i've said all that, now i'll read the article!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

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Depending on the skill and awareness of the trainer or instructor, the dog may be merely puzzled or irritated by well meaning attempts to desensitize or re-condition the behavior or actually punished quite severely using any number of horrific and senseless techniques.​

//​

facepalm.​

if a dog is being "irritated" by desensitization efforts, that is not desensitization efforts. Desensitization, by definition, is working at SUBTHRESHOLD LEVEL of behavioral training.....​

​

oh my.......

//​

In most cases, the true problem - the rude dog and rude owner who allowed his dog to be rude - is not even noticed or addressed.//​

Read that again, and now, swap out the word "rudeness" for "shyness", and read it again. ​

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​

​

Very deep lack of understanding of dog aggression from this author. *sigh* Even seems to be denying this disorder EXISTS!!!! It's all the owner's fault, gotcha. Heard that one a million times by now.....sigh.​

​

but, that lack of understanding of dog aggression IS pretty darn common. ​

I feel so bad i am one of those rude owners who allows my dog to stay rude. SO SORRY!!​

this author, ​

is taking one experience, of some dogs who did not get along in a house, (never once refers to the stressors placed on newly rehomed adult dogs, either) and now, ​

is trying to extrapolate her one, second-hand experience there, acting like now she "knows" alllllllll about dog aggression!​

facepalm.​

​

still reading....but, i might need a tums to finish this article....​

​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

​

and I get Cream off the dog immediately (and "correct" her - laying her down, holding her muzzle, shaking her a bit, saying "NO!" very sternly, etc.//​

facepalm. Many many normal dogs dislike puppies. Even Tx_cowgirls' lovely Mudflap tends to dislike most puppies. THAT is not dog-aggression. (oddly, my DA dog tends to give puppies a "pass", he barks at them, sometimes overly loudly, and then, Buddy turns his own self AWAY from puppies)​

​

Disliking puppies is not uncommon. It is NOT dog-aggression.​

The owners "treatment" of the issue has caused this normal dog to make terrible associations to puppies or hyper dogs.​

this email is NOT what living with a true DA dog is like, or about. sorry, Sara, but owners of true DA dogs, know they do have a true DA dog. DA dogs do exist, like shy dogs exist. Taking an email from a stupid owner,​

and suggesting THAT is what dog-aggression is about, ​

is both a form of denying DA dogs exist,​

and is misinformed.​

Cream is MOST OBVIOUSLY not a DA dog, and lumping this story of a dog who played nicely with all other dogs, but disliked puppies----------in an article titled ​

''why Your Da Dog, May Not Actually Be Da)"

is so so misinformed, imo.

​

​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

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Dog who mean to do harm do so with breathtaking speed, and intervention is generally not possible.//​

false.​

more proof this author has only heard about DA dogs, and never lived with one.​

There are indeed warnings, ask any owner of a DA dog.​

And yes, interventions are possible, not easy, but possible.​

//​

Though noisy and scary, most "fights" are a series of threats with fully inhibited biting employed by the combatants.//​

​

Many many dog fights involve biting, and dogs escalate to biting, yes, actual teeth-included biting, within moments. Actual dog fights do exist, the author, not having been around DA dogs much, seems to think dog fighting is just posturing.​

How sweet she is able to imagine that is the case.​

hmm.​

Who is this author, and where oh where is she getting her opinions from?????​

​

​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

if the number of bites inflicted in those fights is low or zero, then you know that the dog inhibiting his bite - a good sign even though there may be problems that cause the fights and which need resolution.//​

NO SH#T SHERLOCK!!

rofl, (almost)​

oh my. My dog did indeed, bite any dog he got a chance to bite when we first got him. Through years of desensitization, i do suspect, he would be slower to actually progress to biting, but, i could be wrong, and i'm not willing to test that guess. (and that is just my guess)​

but, a dog who is truly dog aggressive, can and will easily escalate to actual biting. ​

this possibility of my dog slowing his aggression to bite time, ​

(IF it's true, no way to know for sure)​

in no way means my dog is not dog-aggressive. wha?​

​

 

[tigerlily46514]

sorry i am disagreeing with almost every point this author is trying to make about dog-aggressive dogs. I rather wish the author had been someone who has actually lived with a DA dog.

this is not personal, Sara, it's not, it's not about you. I just disagree with *most* of this article.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

My experience has been that it is owners of breeds considered non-aggressive that cause the most problems in dog-to-dog interactions simply by being unaware that their dog is rude. To the owners of non-aggressive breeds, there doesn't appear to be any thought that rudeness can take many forms.//​

The fact this author lumps entire breeds as "aggressive" and "non-aggresive" breeds , further displays her lack of understanding of both breeds contain unique individual dogs,
and that dog-aggression can strike ANY breed of dog, any breed at all.

this author is almost pretending, that a normal dog's normal reactions to some situations is what dog-aggressive dogs are about, over and over and over. Stunning. I'm so happy for this author, that she HAS had so little actual direct, firsthand experience with dog aggression, that she often seems to be unaware that dog-aggression even exists. Lucky gal!​

 

[tigerlily46514]

Individual isolated acts of disagreements between dogs is NOT dog-aggression,
yet,
in pointing this out, this author seems to deny there are true DA dogs in the world. Wait'll i link this to the forums for owners of aggressive dogs! (it's just a bunch of us ignorant and rude ppl, like this author says).

In the story of her own admittedly under-exercised pent-up german shepherds charging a dog they all knew entering her own yard, and then wounding the dog so much that he needed stitches, a dog that she herself describes as an "older, retiring dog", as well as biting the other dog's owner,
then this author blames the other owner for not realizing her dog was the "rude" one with no social skills. Interesting.
Interesting, this author had big compassion for other dogs objecting to inappropriate dog behavior, (i'm not certain this author's dogs rushing a dog and demanding he "lie down" and submit is "normal" behavior as she thinks it is)
but, her compassion for dogs objecting to, or being excited by being rushed by, and later injured by, her own pent up pack of GSDs, nope.
odd.
odd that this author did not seem aware, leashed dogs, when excited, and they get to the end of their leash, do often end up with front paws off the ground. We can only wonder what might have happened instead,
if this author had warned her friend that her dogs rush other dogs and demand them to lie down, or if this author had realized how leashes mess up dog interactions.

but, then again, safety first. If there was a concern about this author's pack of "nonrude"(?) dogs behavior, if that fear of the GSD's behavior was reason to leash the other dog, this re-introduction of dogs who all know each other, was done entirely wrong anyway then.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//After all, she is a Golden. Does that mean she or any other typically low-aggression breed should tolerate rude dogs making physical contact?//​

again, with the breed stereotypes as aggressive, nonaggressive. Hilarious. (almost)
this author seems unaware, the dog responsible for the most dog bites to humans,
in the USA is the golden retriever. I bet the author would not believe that stat if she heard it.

I would not label GRs as a whole, though, as i think a huge part of that statistic, is, that GRs are the breed most often set among children. (that's just my own guess, on why GRs lead the nation in biting humans).

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

So, I'd take a very hard look at the relationship between dog and handler (particularly in the areas of leadership and boundaries), the dog's degree of self control and socialization with other dogs.//​

yeah, it's the owners fault if a dog isn't acting right. sure. I guess my poor ol Buddy doesn't realize i am leader (whiffs of dog whisperer there)​

and that there are boundaries. ("...rules, and limitations" as the rest of the DW quote goes.)​

i feel so bad i've let my dog down.​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

​

To my way of thinking, a critical part of the relationships I have with my animals is this promise: "I will protect you." And to the best of my abilities, I do not violate this promise in any way.//​

^an especially adorable remark, after this author has brought into her yard, a dog she herself said she'd noticed was "rude".​

hmm.​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

Their own concern coupled with the death grip escalates the dog's anxiety and aggression, usually resulting in precisely the behavior they sought to avoid in the first place.//​

yes, we owners of DA dogs do get this one a lot, it's our fault our dog is a DA dog, and DogWhisperer has further fed the idea, our own energy is being channeled down the leash, is root of dog-aggression. Adorable. ​

My DA dog has reacted when i was so calm, i wasn't even paying att'n.​

My DA dog has stayed calm, when i was sweating bullets, and almost shaking, as we were rushed by giant off-leash pitmix rushing us at full speed, with a child running after this dog. In those seconds, i had made decision, i will grab the CHILD and move her out of harms way, and then see about the dog fight.​

(luckily, i did not have to,
the pittie was a rude dog, ran up to Buddy nose-to-nose, and Buddy loved him) whew.

Turns out, my dog is NOT an extension of me, at all. Buddy IS his own separate being,​

with his own ideas on things, which do not match my own ideas.​

Sara, you mentioned once, that although you've had Ollie for years and years, Ollie was afraid of plastic bags. I doubt, that YOU, Sara, are afraid of plastic bags, i really do. I suspect only Ollie is afraid of plastic bags.​

Dogs are not extensions of their humans. sorry, not buying it.​

True, if dog is pulling towards/lunging at a dog,​

it's far better to have taught the cue, "Let's Go!"​

than to continue to just try to prevent forward motion and contact. ​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//In one of my seminars, //​

OH NO!! THIS WOMAN GIVES SEMINARS???????​

SOMEONE STOP HER!!! oh my, there is already ENOUGH misunderstanding in the world about DA dogs, and she is out there talking like THIS to groups? oh nooooooo.....​

​

I'd bet, Brisky was either a normal dog, or a shy dog who had developed generalized overspill aggression to dogs.

DA DOGS do NOT appear fearful, not in the least, NOT AT ALL..........oh baybee, my dog's behavior does NOT fit her description of Brisky. I'd so love for this author to come meet my Buddy, but, then again, the author herself would have to interact with one of those foolish, ignorant, tense, fearful, punishment-laden, rude dog-owners like me.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//

​

Not all owners work so hard to find an answer that satisfies the unpleasant niggling in the heart that says, "Something is not right here."//​

i agree there, too many owners give up,​

and just settle for their dog's behavior, and don't try to work on it.​

I do agree with a few of her points, i do, ​

but overall,​

i think this author has a devastating lack of insight into dog-aggression, even seems to deny it exists. Not one reference to dogs who ARE actually DA dogs, and seems to continuously lump dogs like Buddy in with dogs owned by ppl who don't know anything, AS IF, that IS what dog-aggression is all about.​

oh my.​

it's not.​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//2. When socializing your dog under someone else's instruction or guidance, be careful. Some instructors and trainers are appalling ignorant about basic behavior, and unable to set up a positive socialization situation//​

as this author demonstrated when her german shepherd pack attacked another dog so severely he needed stitches. (and then the author blamed the other dog, who was left onleash to join in with the dogs that he did know, and who had gotten excited about her pack rushing the elderly dog and demanding he lie down)​

​

//3. Watch your dog. Your dog will tell you all you need to know about his perception of the world. When you're with him, really be with him. Pay attention to his behavior.//​

​

I take it this author was not "really with her dogs" when they attacked her friend's dog...​

​

//DON'T allow your dog to become overexcited or rude - help him find a more appropriate behavior or remove him briefly from the triggering situation//​

​

^This author should read her own advice, and protect dogs who visit her own yard, imo.​

​

My dog is a DA dog, and guess how many dogs he has bitten in his own yard? Zero.​

 

[Dogster]

Tigerlily, your fingers must be cramped, LOL

But isn't it interesting how Buddy loves RUDE dogs???? The Dog Whisperer would not be able to explain THAT, LOL But I wonder....

 

[Anneke]

I think you're missing the point, that the author is making, Tigerlily.
She is taking Cream as an example of a dog labeled to be dog-agressive, when in fact she is not.
There are many dogs out there who get the label Dog-agressive stuck to their foreheads, when in fact they are only "speaking dog-language.
I think Cream is a very good example of this. A dog comes barging into her and she gives off all the signals that she wants nothing to dog with this dog. But this dog ignores her signs and keeps coming to her. So she growls and lunges for him, in the hope of chasing him off. She has no intention of hurting this dog, she just doesnot want to be jumped at.

What the author is trying to say, is that Cream is getting punished for very normal behaiour, but noone is doing anything to get the other dog to behave. Everybody only sees the growls and lunging of Cream. But noone sees WHY she is doing this. The reason being a very impolite dog invading her space and not taking notice of her warnings.

So Cream gets falsly accused of being dog-aggressive.

I see this happen all the time. People let their dog race into another dog and are surprised when the other dog does not want to be bulldozered.
A lot of dogs need to be taught how to respectfully approach another dog. It is not polite dogbehaviour to just charge at another dog.
Polite dogs don't approach in a straight line, they curve towards the other dog, you will see a lot of calmingsignals.

Of course there are o lot of dogs out there that ARE truely dog-agressive, but I do feel that there are also so many poeple out there that just don't understand how dogs communicate. As soon as their dog growls, they label it aggressive, forgetting it is only a way of communication. And yes it most likely is a warning, but certainly NOT ALWAYS a sign of agression.
When a motherdog raises her puppies, she will also growl at them, she will also lunge, snap and even put the very rude pups on their back and pin them down, just to educate them.

I don't think the author is saying there is no such thing as aggression, only that sometimes dogs are misunderstood.

 

[tigerlily46514]

I do like *some* of this article, there are even good parts on an otherwise rotten apple, too.

Sorry i posted so much, but, i figure, IF SOMEONE POSTS, they want feedback, or, they would not post it.
I realize my posts are long, longer than anyone here will probably read, but, i can read entire BOOKS!!! so a few paragraphs is nothing to me. I AM A READER!!! But most ppl today do have twitter level att'n spans, and zone out for a long post, so SORRY!!

i am passionate about at least trying to reduce the myths about DA dogs. The author is correct, none of the dogs she describes in her article are DA dogs, imo. I agree. so she does have one good point there. but her continuous suggestions, that THAT is what ppl mean when they have DA dogs, or that THAT is "Most" of DA dogs, is doing a disservice to those of us out here truly working hard to desenstize our DA dogs, indicating WE are the problem/caused the problem, etc. At no point in the article, does this author distinguish us at all from owners she calls "just ignorant."<-------which she says are "most" of the situations.OVER AND OVER AND OVER, she makes claim that "most" DA dog are just owned by "ignorant" and rude ppl.


I do agree with some of her points
but most of her points are lame and reveal a lack of understanding of DA dogs.