Rudeness In Dogs (why Your Da Dog, May Not Actually Be Da)

Discussion in 'General Dog Training' started by sara, May 20, 2012.

  1. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    I have to have treats. I used to click her when she looked at another dog (before she reacted) and treat her; but it's been 4 years and I'm really sick of panicing because I left the house and I don't have a clicker on me.
    So I have been using my voice and little motivational tugs (not corrections) of the leash to get her attention and I tell her she's a good girl (that seems to make her more workable) and to watch me and focus and leave it...and in all honesty after 4 years the damn dog knows exactly what I want her to do; but she still needs coaching to actually do it). Also I give her distance, so if we are coming towards another dog on a sidewalk if I don't see there's enough room I will go around the car parked on the street vs. forcing V. to walk closely by the dog. But then sometimes, like in summer months - dogs are everywhere - I just stick a treat under her nose and lead her along...

  2. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    It's not that V. will like other well behaved dogs that give her her space; it's that she won't actively dislike or fear or try to keep them away...or whatever is going on in that little brain of hers. I think to an extent it is just excitment and stimulation and that can so easily trip the switch into aggression.

    It's hard to say how much space she needs because it depends ehat kind of mood she's in that day, what wlse is going on in the environment, what the other dog's behavior is.
    But let's say a dog is totally mellow; just lying there...V. would rush it, lick it. poke it and if the dog just continued to lie there she would then turn away like "WTH???". SHe might go back and continue to poke and lcik but eventually she'd just walk away.
    She got amazingly well with my in-laws Westie; the dog had to be 16 or 17 when V. met it; V. would just give her a few sniffs and a lick...and I swear half the time the Westie didn't even know she was there.
  3. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    I'm so loving this thread, i'm so stoked to find someone like you, Jazzy, who is also much interested in helping dogs who react to other dogs!!

    Boy oh boy, did i totally understand THIS remark of yours:
    // Yes there are times my attempts to distract her fail. Once she has the opportunity to react then she is more amped up and more likely to react for the rest of the day; but not always//


    Yeah, no way i get close to 100% either, and YES! I have noticed that same thing, once i fail to prevent/interrupt a reaction, wow, Buddy IS then much harder to control !! I read up on this phenomenon, (i used to think, well, he's having "bad day" or something) but, turns out, it's cuz when a dog reacts, their bloodstreams are flooded with various hormones and adrenaline and stuff, making them lil time bombs, and very easy to set off.


    I usually stop working with Buddy on his issues, once he HAS lost it.
    I've found, for *my* dog, it usually only takes about half an hour, to maybe an hour, though, for those neurochemical agents to fade back out of his bloodstream, and often, he is then okay again. but, it can vary from dog to dog. Plus, lol, usually, i'm back home again by then anyway!!:LOL:

    I sometimes think, NOT being aware of that phenomenon, of the "post-reaction" state of mind, can impede some human's urge to keep working on issue. Cuz once their dog DID react, and then, they try again,
    over and over,
    for next hour, and fail each time, (cuz dog is full of adrenaline)
    they give up, and think, "this method does not work" or worse, "my dog can't be helped".
    when in fact, it was just their dog was in that "post reaction" state of mind.


    I so so wish, that more of us struggling to help da dogs, were aware of this "post reaction" neurochemical phenomenon, so those ppl would not feel like failures, nor feel their dog is past helping.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Again, i totally understood this remark, too:

    // I would have to put ALLOT of work into getting her to not plow people over in a quest to stick her tongue in their mouth. I fully admit I have been lax in training her in this area; but in my defense...why are there so many complete strangers that not only allow but encourage her???//


    Oh, yeah, my best pal, insists Buddy jumps on her, which, if she visits too often, Buddy gets a lil mixed up about jumping on visitors all over again, and then, he needs a refresher course.


    I used kikopup's method for stopping jumping, this worked great, and my dog rarely if ever jumps on anyone ever, but, lol, it does not take much of invitation for him to jump up. but he won't jump on anyone unless they invite him, which, like you say, happens a lot.


    and i also did some door work, as well, training Buddy to keep his lil butt on the floor when i opent he door, ever escalating the challenge, starting with empty door,
    then adding in doorbell and opening an empty door,
    then advancing to a doorbell/opening door/person actually there.

    This wasn't that hard at all, it really wasn't. but, if my best friend visits too often, with no other visitors in between, well, Buddy does get mixed up about how to greet ppl at our door!!:rolleyes: Buddy now jumps on her, whether she invites him to, or not, but, only her, cuz SHE trained Buddy, "if you see me, jump on me" so, what can i do. If i know she is coming over, i try to keep Bud indoors for a lil while to make sure Buddy's paws are clean! lol
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    amazing story about the dachsund, glad it all ended well! Aren't some ppl breathtaking?
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    yes, yes, i agree, just learning how to manage it is way way more important, than whether or not we fully understand the dog's motives.
    I do think da dogs are born that way, and knowing that, or learning that, (after having heard for my entire life, that da dogs are 'created' by stupid humans) i found it an odd comfort.
    This research showing the brains, and the bloodstreams in da dogs are different,
    might not have anything to do with Veronica, as she may, or may not be, a da dog. But for ME, my knowing that most likely, Buddy has an inborn neurobiological disorder, helped me feel better about the whole scene, it did. For one thing, i stopped blaming myself, and for another thing, I was now far more content, with learning how to manage him, than trying to figure out how to "cure" him, if that makes any sense.

    of course, thinking a da dog has an inborn neurobiological disorder, in NO WAY ever means we can't help that dog, not at all what i'm saying, but, lots of ppl DO interpret that info that way, as if it indicates "there is no hope" BUT, i strongly, wholeheartedly, believe, almost all da dogs, if not all da dogs,
    can be made BETTER
    or
    WORSE, by how we humans manage them, even if the dog does have a brain anomaly in there.
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //It sort of feels like a half hearted attempted to get close. I'm 5 feet 105 lbs and I can hold her back easily with one hand.//

    How far away are you talking about i wonder.

    this fascinates me, as it is NOT how Buddy is, at all. and the closer the more he pulls, i think.
    I'll have to check that next time, to be sure that's right.

    Buddy, if allowed to escalate,
    will indeed pull 100% towards the "enemy" dog, especially if he is on an extendaleash. (which i never ever use, if i know we are going where dogs are/could be).
    BUT
    On a 6 foot cloth leash, way less pulling, it is not nearly as strong of a pull, not at all, but, still, it's a pull.
    I think Buddy may have figured out, "this here cloth leash just never ever gets bigger, and i never get good chance to get that other dog on this here cloth leash."
    (forgive anthropomorphising, but, it's one of my hobbies,:ROFLMAO: lol) or who knows why Buddy pulls way less on a short cloth leash. no idea, really.
  8. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //

    I know this is something different; but I keep meaning to say; I love BC and I think it is so cool the way they do their "eye" //

    yes, his eye with "enemy" dogs does sort of resemble his "eye" for his herd of laundry baskets, which is all the poor dog has to herd around.:rolleyes: Buddy stalks his collection of laundry baskets, and herds them, piling them all up together in some area,
    and then, a lil while later, Buddy is moving them all again, to whole new spot,
    over and over, for hours. this is good exercise, the way i see it, and he seems to enjoy so much.
    But, i couldn't much argue if someone else might say, "your dog pretending that baskets are sheep is totally insane".
    But only drawback i see to this weird behavior is, our yard, and our living room, look odd with laundry baskets all over them. (Buddy has indoor collection, too, and Buddy gets honked off if we swap out an indoor basket for an outdoor one)
    Every visitor always asks, "what's with all these laundry baskets?":ROFLMAO:

    Sometimes, Buddy sits there staring at his baskets, as if they are moving, which, of course, they are not. :ROFLMAO: Other times, Buddy sits there, right by his baskets that he just moved to new location, smiling, :) looking around, and he looks extremely pleased with his work and with his "herd", and very relaxed. I do think Buddy may have more than one game he plays with those baskets, but, he wont' tell us his plot or plan, we just have observe and just guess his plan or goal for his baskets that day.

    but, i've also seen other breeds of da dogs also give the stinkeye to "enemy" dogs, as well. I think a hard stare is sort of universal to all dogs, as an aggressive display, even great danes, even chihuahuas, use a hard stare to tell other dog they are about to escalate....maybe a dog glaring, with hard eyed stare, is maybe a "last chance" type of warning to other dog...(?).

    I do sort of think Buddy's stare/focus on the other dog, does bring to mind, the vision of green lasers coming out of his eyes onto other dog....like something out of a science fiction movie.
  9. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    sorry for derail about the BC eye, and Buddy's eye on his baskets, lol, but if i ever can afford a new video camera, i'm planning to make videos of this weird behavior.
    we didn't teach any of it, none, it's just my dog's idea of a good time.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    I so understood and agreed, if V ever does get into full on fight, it's a huge setback, and i think it does change things in a dog's mind. Buddy was far far worse after his fight, too. Took him weeks and weeks to lower back down to his previous level again.
    I think you are right, if V ever does get into fight, that could cause a deterioration in her mindset to a new, more horrible level, a step downwards.

    //

    Pit bull people talk about their dogs 'turning on"; an instance where like a light switch the dog does go from pretty cold/tolerant of dogs to wanting to kill every dog it sees.//


    I'm not sure whether those ppl who say that are indicating that stupid humans can create a da dog by allowing the dog to "turn on"
    or
    if the ppl who say, have stood witness to a dog beginning to manifest da behavior, and think, "this dog is 'turning on' something" when it is just plain ol dog aggression beginning to manifest in that dog as he approaches maturity, usually at about 9 mos old, but, it varies a bit.

    Not sure what they saw, or heard, that makes them think this, or what they are referring to.
    Although, i totally 100% agree that a dog getting into a dog fight, can be detrimental to his overall mental health, especially for a da dog------oh, is very bad thing for da dog indeed, imo.

    I know, almost all owners of da dogs, factor in the dog's breed, as a main contributor in their dogs' dog-aggression. This is real commonly done, by owners of every breed from lapdogs to guard dogs to dogs which are supposed to be "family" dogs, to hunting dogs, to owners of small dogs, etc etc, all of 'em, always find a way to focus on the breed of dog they own as being part of the reason their dog is a da dog. (which is not exactly what you are saying, i realize that)

    I don't much factor the dog's breed in, much at all,
    since the brain anomalies in da dogs can strike any breed of dog at all.
    and since the behavior of a da dog, IS all pretty much a lot alike, whether it is a BC, or poodle, or dachsund, or a St Bernard,
    all the da dogs behave a lot the same, regardless of breed.
    but Jazzy, i totally respect and understand your special concerns, since your pitbull has such powerful jaws, and possibly, a different mechanism for deciding when a fight is "over" as well, so i totally get why you especially, want to avoid ever giving V any chance to end up a dog fight.
    I get that, totally.

    Of course, like i said, there is *some* variety among da dogs,
    with dogs in rehab being a lil less reactive/more under control,
    and dogs being severly mishandled, being worse,
    and probably, dogs who HAVE been in actual fights, are probably worse than da dogs who have never quite actually been in fight, that makes sense to me.

    but i kind of think, if we threw a bunch of da dogs, none of which had had ANY rehab,
    all into some unsupervised thing to observe their interactions with dogs,(what a nightmare, eh)
    i bet the da dogs would all pretty much behave about the same way, regardless of the dogs breed.

    but, your pitbull might take off a leg, though, when HE bites....and it's not impossible, that your pitbull, *might* have a different notion of when a fight is "over" than some breeds might.
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    // I think you said sometimes if you leash Buddy it is worse or better unleashed...if left to her own devices V. would simply be an ass leashed or unleashed. :oops://

    OH ROFL, it is the same for Buddy, but, his reactions can be a different style of reaction, if he is UNleashed, he goes through more posturing and signalling,
    whereas leashed, he does more barking.
    but, yeah, Buddy reacts to dogs whether he is leashed, or not, it's just the leashed reactions tend to be more barky, and the UNleashed reactions, tend to have a more ominous, scary look to them. shiver.
  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //So I don't consider it leash reactivity if removing the leash doesn't solve the problem.

    Same with the fence; remove the fence and we still have the same problem.//

    Oh, i get it. Yeah, i can see i did not word it well at all, i see how i confused you some. i'd so love it, if removing the leash removes Buddy's da behavior, but, it doesn't. He is just noisier on leash. But sometimes, i do think, a leash can mess up some dogs, and there's been moments, where i think it messes up Buddy now and then, but, it's not just leash aggression for my dog.

    It's been so long, since i observed him meeting an unknown dog off leash, i have to scrap around to picture it now. Most of the time, by the time we get to offleash interactions, (if we can, and sometimes, this can take a year to get there)
    it's cuz i have done extensive work with Buddy, and have clear signals Buddy likes this dog, and has been tested with leashes on, etc etc.

    but, i must say, i have done really great with getting Buddy to calmly walk by unknown dogs behind fences, and we are having a very very high success rate for that one. But, remove that fence, and Buddy would most likely react.
    I think, i am guessing, that somehow, Buddy has figured out, "dogs behind fences can't get me" or maybe he's figured out "i can't get to dogs behind fences, it's no big deal"
    but, with few exceptions
    Buddy doesn't react to dogs behind fences much at all. he used to, but not now. I used the kikopup video called "Barking at Dogs behind Fences" to get Buddy to stop reacting to dogs behind fences. worked great for Buddy anyway.
    and a close by fence, is whole other deal, and Buddy could still react to a dog behind a very closeby fence.

    Now, Buddy being the dog behind the fence, :rolleyes: is always a work in progress. I can get him all trained to be calm, or not bark much, when dogs go by HIS yard,
    but, without ongoing refresher lessons now and then, Buddy can get sloppy about it, and become a barkmonster all over again, about dogs he can see from his yard. But, he can understand it all again, with a few refresher lessons about how not to bark at dogs who pass his house.
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Somethings you say about V, are not like Buddy at all,
    and somethings are the same.
    Like V not pulling super hard to get to other dogs, not true of Buddy, but, he does pull less on a cloth leash, and if i am far enough away, he won't pull at all.
    I am embarassed to admit, that Buddy even pulls to his friends, to dogs he LIKES. I have never taken the time, to train Buddy, when you see Duncan, or Maggie, or Jinx, or Maddie, or any of the other neighborhood pals that you love, that you can't pull to see them.

    I know how to do that, but, it'd take time, AND consistency,
    and my guy would not participate in it, (he'd just let Buddy pull to Duncan)
    and, i don't want to risk, the back and forth req'd to get Buddy to understand, "you can't pull to see Duncan" possibly getting Buddy frustrated about seeing Duncan.
    see?
    so i know i should, but, i have not yet ever taught Buddy, that if you pull to see your dog friends, you don't get to see them. cuz i'm so utterly thrilled to bits that he even HAS any dog friends at all.
    PLus, the dog owners would probably get bored of all that training, and begin to avoid us, so they wont' have to stand there while i train Buddy to stop pulling to see his friends.:ROFLMAO:


    and this, so NOT like Buddy:
    //She also tends to react more to the lone dog that comes out of nowhere as opposed to there being allot of dogs around.//

    see, my dog, is better with one dog, way better,
    and groups of dogs set him OFF. Buddy just blows an entire fuse over groups of dogs, it's most pitiful thing you ever saw.

    If i take Buddy to dog park regularly, (outside of the dogpark, far away, not IN the park:ROFLMAO: ) and work with him there, well, he gets better and better about groups of dogs, which is HUGE challenge for Buddy.
    I took exact same blanket, and we sat on this blanket, from 100s of feet away, and observed the dogs, Buddy got treats for watching them, and we left.
    I sort of thought, maybe the blanket itself, could serve as a signal, "we're just sitting on this blanket, and when we sit on this blanket, nothing bad ever happens." kinda thing.
    and moved ever closer, with plan someday, to remove the blanket as well.

    but, it's a 45 minute drive each way, so i don't get there quite as much as i used to, ga$ prices and all, this sort of falls off my priority list with my budget.
    and every spring, we have to start all over again, almost from scratch:rolleyes: .



    //Every winter her skills fall off and usually by the end of the summer she's really doing good. //

    OH YEAH, i so know what you mean, in winter, Buddy doesn't get to see as many dogs, and he is all kind of rusty on how to stay calm if he sees one, every spring. mmmHmm.
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //have to have treats. I used to click her when she looked at another dog (before she reacted) and treat her; but it's been 4 years and I'm really sick of panicing because I left the house and I don't have a clicker on me.//

    This sounds a lot like what i do, too.
    btw, you can always train a marker WORD, as well, like "YESsss" or something. Plus, the treat itself is a pretty powerful marker to a dog. I sometimes find it hard to time a click just right sometimes, for marking calmness,
    but, i think that might be *me*, cuz i hear others all do it very successfully.
    Sometimes i can, sometimes, i can't quite decide if this here is clickable or not, but, he gets treats. I'm not above speedfeeding treats to prevent a reaction, which is probably wrong,
    but, i've done that.

    I don't tug Buddy, not to get his att'n anyway, but, i have had to drag my lil gangsta dog away at times.:ROFLMAO:
    but, i did teach him "Let's Go" and "look at me" as last-resort bandaid moves, to prevent a reaction. but neither of those moves helps his inner attitude, or not much anyway.

    I try try try to get Buddy to a point, where i can have him looking AT the other dog, and getting treats for looking right at his enemy, cuz i think doing that helps him shift inner attitude, is calmly looking right at the other dog, hopefully making new associations in his lil doggie brain, that dogs = treats, and learning how to be calm when he looks at dogs.
    this is my HOPE anyway. And it seems to work.

    but, like you know, that (getting dog to calmly look AT the enemy) can not always be done, nope. The dog can be too darn close, for one thing, or our dog can already be outa his mind from previous reaction earlier, or, you are in the middle of traffic, etc etc etc.

    sometimes the best we can do, is just prevent a reaction.

    for whatever it's worth, i keep in my pocket, a squeak-whistle thing, from a squeak toy, and stick that in my mouth, and make it squeak, to help distract Buddy back to me at times.:ROFLMAO:
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //

    But let's say a dog is totally mellow; just lying there...V. would rush it, lick it. poke it and if the dog just continued to lie there she would then turn away like "WTH???"//

    but that was how V was 2 years ago, right, and you might not be entirely sure if that is what V would do nowadays to an unknown dog, or not, right?
    but, maybe you are right, maybe that IS just exactly what V would do.

    Yeah, my inlaws also had ancient dogs, too, which Buddy just looked at, ONCE, and briefly sniffed them, and ignored ever after, for reasons i can not explain. Those dogs even barked nonstop upon meeting Buddy, and barked every single time they saw Budd, they barked and barked,
    but, Buddy ignored them, completely. He could even nap once those dogs stopped barking.
    still, for whatever reasons (?)Buddy ignored those elderly dogs, still, i know buddy is still a da dog.
    (one of the dogs was not elderly, but was too obese to walk, severely crippled by obesity, it was a dachsund whose feet stuck out to it's sides, :eek: and it's feet could not reach the floor,:(:mad: like a Macy's Day float balloon, the dog had to be carried, couldn't walk at all)

    buddy is slightly better about very very old dogs, just slightly better. Not always though, like if it is german shepherd, Buddy will hate that GSD, no matter what. Elderly GSDs, baby GSDs, crippled, limping GSDs, laid back friendly GSDs, sleeping GSDs, GSDs who are lying down,
    any and every GSD sets Buddy off.

    probably a GSD under anasthesia would set Buddy off.:ROFLMAO:


    I once hired a trainer with a specially trained GSD, who works with da dogs,
    and got Buddy to sniff the GSD rear end, and Buddy instantly relaxed quite a bit (dog is not an unknown dog now) and those two did make friends:D .
    I was so stoked, as i thought Buddy would generalize that good experience with GSD and reduce his whole "all GSDs need to be taken out" kind of attitude.
    but, it didn't.

    and one other GSD, that i worked forever with, Buddy eventually decided he did not have to murder that GSD and they did become pals.:D

    but, Buddy did not generalize either of those two experiences,:( much to my huge disappointment,
    and Buddy still reacts to ALL german shepherds, no exceptions, no matter what i do, either, very very rarely can i control buddy's reactions around GSDs.
    I just avoid all GSDs cuz my dog is totally prejudiced about GSDs.:rolleyes:
  16. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    Apparently, we all have one of those friends. :rolleyes:
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  17. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    Firstly, I agree with you I think it is definitely genetic.

    I do think, like any other behavior there can be cases of it being learned behavior or lack of socialization; or a genetic predisposition aggravated by the environment; but I most definitely think it can also be primarily genetic - and then yes, as you said it can be worked with...but you will never have a "normal" dog; imo. As with Buddy, I think V.'s issues are genetic in nature.

    As far as how far away; I am a bad judge of spacial relations...pasing on the opposite side of the street; sometimes closer - passing on the same sidewalk - but I tend to "cut out"; maybe go around a parked car, or at least find a way to give us more space.

    But I have joked that V. seems to put on a big show, like she is saying "Hold me back, hold me back"!...but she really isn't trying very hard. She's a strong dog, and I only have her on a leather flat buckle collar if she really wanted to drag me I would think she could. Granted she isn't in shape, but these dogs excel in weight pull and pull thousands of pounds - how hard would it be to move me if she really set her mind to it?

    Other people in classes and trainers have noticed this as well. I have always joked (not that I would ever do this) but that one time I would like to just drop the leash and see what she would do. I really half expect that she would stop, turn and look at me; and if she could talk say something like, "WTH?? I told you to hold...me...back"! Of course we'll never know, because I'm not a gambler and the possibility of chaos, bloodshed and a lawsuit does not particularly appeal to me.

    Yesterday we went to a small dog boutique. We hardly ever go there because she has a history of reacting there; of course the store also has a history of being empty until we go in and then voila 1 dog materializes out of nowhere. So yesterday we went in, and then in comes a cute little beagal. Now granted the beagal started barking and that is something V. has a hard time resisting, so of course she startes barking. It always sounds a bit worse, at least to me; when V. barks...and she wasn't in aggressive m ode - it was excitment mode. However if I had let her meet the beagal, all that excitement and stimulation would flip the switch and spill over into aggression which is what happens with her.

    Later that day we went for a walk and I would fully expect her to be hyped up. We have to go past a black lab; who apparently also has issues. The lab starts barking at V. and quite frankly it sounded rather intimidating. I think V. thought so too, because she didn't make a peep and pretended she was a very good dog who didn't even see that lab. Normally even if she is quiet, she will keep looking back at the other dog over her shoulder as we walk down the street...but she didn't give that lab a second glance.

    Maybe a year ago we were walking w/ her boyfriend in a neighborhood we don't know and a strange dog charged us to their property line...V. made like she didn't even see it and that I was the most interesting thing in her universe.

    That's why for V. I don't think it starts as aggressive intent. I think it starts as overstimulation and then she gets too worked up and that energy escalates into aggression.
  18. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    BTW; I demand video of Buddy w/ his laundry baskets!

    He sounds like a doll!!
    tigerlily46514 and Dogster like this.
  19. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

  20. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    Where we live it is seldom if ever that V. sees a dog from her yard; but if she does she will bark. However she will also bark at people she sees or anything really. With people she would bark until they actually get in the yard then she would be all over them. SO that, I'm not sure if it's a territorial thing - it seems more like an excitement thing...like she is when someone comes to the door . "Omg! Company! Get the door! Put the coffee on!!!"

    We have a baby gate that separates the top of the stairs (raised ranch) from the door to the outside; so I use that to keep V. from assaulting unknown guests., or I put her in her crate which for some reason causes her to lie down and shut up :confused: and if the new person wants to meet her I then leash her and take her out of the crate once she is calm.

    We really don't get enough visitors to work on the issue; I know that suonds like a cop out...but we really aren't social butterflies and family lives out of state...

    Ooh here's a video if you want to see some of V.'s half hearted pulling. Granted this is at Rally class and she "knows the drill" so to speak so she tends to react less being in close quarters with other dogs than she would in another environment...I think...it really sort of depends with her. Anyway, some of these dogs she's familiar with and some she's never seen bfore b/c it's a drop in class and we only go every so often now. I showed the vid to another trainer who thinks V. started to react to the black pit bull's excitement with the tail that started swishing madly.


    When it's that crowded we don't sit along the line with the other dogs; we sit off by ourselves sort of in an alcove; like dunces. :oops:

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