Rudeness In Dogs (why Your Da Dog, May Not Actually Be Da)

Discussion in 'General Dog Training' started by sara, May 20, 2012.

  1. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //here are “a lot” more dog owners in the world than you, Anneke, Jackienmutts and all the other members of your dog aggression forums and all the other owners of genetically dog aggressive dogs.//

    maybe, whatever you are saying there, was addressed by me in my reply to Anneke, in reply #73.and if you are suggesting that most dog owners think/wonder if their dogs are da dogs,
    that seems an exaggeration, imo. I think most owners of dogs do not think their dogs are da dogs.
    not that there are not stupid humans,

    but, i don't think most owners have some inner anguish, suffering in their minds, about this topic, nor do i think most dogs in the world are treated badly, either.

    but, if you do, that is fine, you can believe whatever you want to.

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //When a DA dog came at Zac I have to say I had no warning, it just hurtled at us from nowhere, there was no escalation (we weren’t even in sight) it just hurtled at us. //

    because you did not see the da dog escalate,
    from a stiffness, to a crouch, to a glare, etc before the da dog charged you,
    does not mean those precursors of a da dog charging did not happen.
    Most all da dog owners can spot just exactly what i am describing there.

    and not all dogs who charge another dog, are da dogs, either.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Many friendly dogs will barrel straight over to another dog.

    and some charging dogs,

    are just RUDE dogs, not DA dogs. (read the article:ROFLMAO: )
  3. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //but… would there be any warning signs if a DA dog wasn’t restrained in any way and another dog just appeared… possibly the DA dog would just go directly for the jugular.//

    Yes, even off leash, my da dog has early signs he is about to charge. My da dog, like most da dogs,

    stiffens, postures, often crouching a bit, glaring, staring hard like green lasers are coming out of his eyes, hackles up, facial expression is hard,

    you gotta come see it. It's hard to miss.

    No, not even in his most severe days of da behavior, did Buddy just instantly zoom over to charge the other dog, there was always a display of some type prior.

    I can spot these, and usually intervene, even off leash. I can get my dog to freeze right there, and wait til i leash him up. I've done that any number of times.
    (that took extensive training, btw.)

    come to think of it, Buddy has not charged another dog now, in years. Not off leash, i mean. On leash, yes, yes he still charges now and then ONleash, or where there are fences, even despite my best efforts.
    but off leash, nope. Been a long long time...(he used to, though)
    OPEN INVITATION, to Sara, and RunningDog,
    do come stay a week in my home,
    and come learn about DA dogs!!:D
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    btw, the display i mention above, in "pre-charge" display,
    is sometimes skipped if Buddy is onleash,
    or behind a fence.

    In which case, Buddy can and will skip the display,
    and if on leash, sometimes, Buddy will just instantly lunge, or react.
    Never does that off leash, just ONleash. This cracks me up, cuz i sort of see my Buddy as a bit of "Barney Fife" character, from old tv show, a guy who postured as if he was brave, but, really wasn't.

    And, in his yard, Buddy zooms across his own yard, instantly, no display,
    to yell at any dog he sees, if i don't intervene, or if i haven't been working with him on this for a while. It is almost like how we have to keep recall sharp with ongoing lessons?? it's sort of like that for da dogs, it is sort of an ongoing thing, imo,
    if i do not maintain lessons for Buddy to not lose his mind from his own yard, he will default back to that behavior.
    but, if i keep up ongoing lessons on how to be calm when dogs go by his fence, he can do it. Luckily for buddy, dogs he can see from his fence, are not right there, but about 100 feet away.
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    wait, when i said that pre-charge display, is hard to miss,
    i have had an occasion or two,
    where i was not paying any att'n to my dog, at all, (like, standing there talking to someone, holding Buddy's leash, not looking at Buddy at all, and unaware a dog was approaching)
    and realized, after the fact,
    that Buddy was reacting.

    adorably, Buddy is way more likely to emit an audible growl, when i am not paying att'n, as if to alert me. I could be reading into that, i won't argue if anyone posts "Oh you are just imagining that" cuz i can see how it sounds. But, Buddy doesn't always growl in his pre-charge displays.
    but, if i am NOT paying any att'n to him, as he escalates, Buddy is WAY more likely to growl outloud.
    for which i am grateful.

    so, i disagree with my own self, there. A person CAN miss the display!:ROFLMAO: I have now and then. but not too often.
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //She does not say that dog fights don’t exist. //

    She does indeed, stop short of saying that, but, implies it with the "most".

    //As the author uses the speech marks around the word “fights” she is talking about perceived fights or if you prefer ‘dog-dog interactions which people describe as fights’ many of which are little more than spats or corrections//

    I see your point, and the author's point, but, da dogs don't do that. DA dogs can and will fight, oh will they ever. IF the author had even once, even once, set da dogs apart from normal dogs, my disagreements with the entire article, would be reduced by probably 90%.

  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //I’m not going to deal with the GSD incident in detail as it has already been discussed in the thread. I do disagree with the author's interpretation of it to some extent – I believe the owner was to blame not the dog.//

    Yes, i agree.

    The only part which has been discussed, was whether or not the author was present. The author does not say, "I was told Skippy reared up on the end of his leash." The author says, "Skippy reared up on his leash." and so on, in a first person account way,
    BUT, i do spot where she says she was not supervising the interaction.

    why she wasn't supervising the interaction, why she did not instruct a woman she felt was not smart, with a dog who was not good with GSDs, around a pack of pentup GSDs, to stay away from her pack,
    since she states this known-to-be-stupid woman was just inside her home, IS a mystery.

    //It is clear that the GSDs were not trying to hurt/kill the sheltie or it WOULD have been dead//

    I agree, the GSDs did not want to kill the dog,
    but, the visitor dog did end up at the vets with stitches. That qualifies as "hurt" in my book.
  8. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //I agree 100% with the author that people who allow their dogs to get too close to other dogs are rude and a menace to society//

    I agree, but, i'd add in,
    //people who allow their dogs to get too close to other dogs WITHOUT ASKING are rude and a menace to society//

    Lots of dogs get near each other, and it is great thing. Maybe even "most" dogs who get near each other have a good time.
  9. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //If the author could turn the clock back I’m sure she would have warned the owner//

    Odd, that she did not consider it beforehand,
    with the perfect storm of
    ~visitor dog who does not get on well with GSDs
    ~an owner the author knew was stupid
    ~a pent up pack of GSDs who rush visitor dogs and force the visitor dog to lie down (which author seems to think of as normal behavior).

    Even i would have seen that risk, with that combo of factors,
    and i am just a stupid dog owner, not a pro. Especially since the author then goes on rant about how owners should be in control of situations at all times, etc etc. when she herself was not. Hard to imagine the author left her own home while this stupid woman, with a dog that provokes GSDs was on her property, hard to imagine how the author did not foresee this possibility, since the visitor woman was stupid and all.
    Interesting, too, author makes no mention of how leashes mess up dog interactions for many dogs, too.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //She doesn’t.(say breeds are aggressive) //

    do you really want me to go copy and paste her references more than once,
    to "aggressive breeds"??

    and "non-aggressive breeds"??

    //To the owners of non-aggressive breeds, there doesn't appear to be any thought that rudeness can take many forms.
    any breed CAN have a da dog in it. or, rather, a da dog, can be a dog of ANY breed.

    Here, the author seems unaware of GRs who are da dogs:
    Does that mean she or any other typically low-aggression breed should tolerate rude dogs making physical contact?
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    out of order, but while searching the article, for her references to "aggressive" breeds,
    i spotted this line:
    // Dog who mean to do harm do so with breathtaking speed, and intervention is generally not possible. //

    and i felt neat,
    that i can intervene.:D I can get my dog to freeze and wait while i leash him. And i'm not a pro, just a nobody, yet, i can do that. I wonder if this author can, or even knows how to train that?

    although, i disagree with the "breathtaking speed" part, it can happen quickly, but, it's not some instant thing, but sure, it can vary, i repeatedly just get impression,
    that the author, maybe like you, and Sara, just really hasn't been around DA dogs much.

  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Like i have said, I DO AGREE with some of the author remarks:
    and here is one of them:
    No matter what the breed, no matter how much genetic manipulation may have muted or inhibited certain behaviors, a dog is a dog is a dog. And the basics of dog-to-dog communications remain the same: a growl means back off in any breed's language, a tail held high and stiffly is a warning, rolling over on your back is an apology, etc//

    i so applaud that one,
    and i always find myself smiling and shaking my head, when someone with
    a da dog
    a shy dog,
    tries to act like it "is a breed thing", which, imo, da dogs are not a breed thing.
    "Yes, Fido is a da dog, but he is ___________breed, so naturally he would be (territorial, protective, etc). "

    The dogs breed has nothing to do with being a da dog.
    nor a shy dog either.

    a shy dog
    a da dog can happen to any breed,
    any breed at all.
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    btw, not sure i can finish replying to all your remarks today, but, i will sooner or later.

    also, btw,
    i ALWAYS go back and edit my posts, as i rarely say anything right the first try. sorry.
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    True, the author doesn't say "all" but does say "most", and Sara says "alot" of da dogs are just normal owned by stupid ppl. (and that is progress, from years ago, when Sara would say all, or "most" so YAY)
    Never ever once,
    not even one time, does the author ever even acknowledge da dogs do exist, instead, banging on about "most" cases are result of stupid owners.
    If the internet, books, blogs, etc, were not chockful of similar "info" that da dogs are just result of stupid, ignorant humans, i would not object to yet another article being posted here with that "info".
    If the author ever DID distinguish, or even suggest, that there ARE da dogs, and lots of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    i would not have objected, probably.
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //Like humans, dogs can act aggressively in abnormal ways due to biochemical imbalances, various diseases, genetic defects, psychological and/or physical abuse, drugs or chemicals, and for reasons science cannot explain. Like their human counterparts, such abnormal dogs are rare but can be extremely dangerous.//

    I would not call da dogs or shy dogs "rare"
    but ARE a minority.

    and science has explanations to offer, suggesting the mishapen amygdalas in both the shy dogs' and the da dogs brains, may be a big factor,
    as the amygdala is thought to be responsible in humans for emotional control. (sorry, i can NOT turn off the italics:ROFLMAO: )

    Aggression in dogs are the NUMBER ONE complaint from owners, and the NUMBER ONE reason for voluntary euthanasia in vet offices.

    //About three times as many dogs are destroyed because they have behavior problems as die from cancer.[1]
    With the exception of abusive or neglectful situations, most canine behavioral problems are not created by people. But this does not mean that if owners do not change the way they respond to their dog that the dog will not continue with the problem.
    It does mean through ignorance or misinformation, or through the use of techniques not based on scientific evidence, it is possible to make the situation worse. [2]/.............
    According to Dr. Nicholas Dodman [1], forty two percent of dog owners report their dogs as having behavior problems of some sort. Aggression is the most common behavior problem of them all.
    Yet there is a prevailing attitude that there are not bad dogs, only bad owners. This attitude is unhelpful and misguided.//
    ^i just grabbed this one, i have tons more. I have many links on how common da dogs,
    and shy/fear aggressive dogs, ARE.
    NOT a majority, nope, but, "rare"(?) is not true, either.
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    True, my definition of what a da dog is,
    may vary from another persons.

    Like the author herself says, many ppl will mislabel a dog who had a display or two, of even appropriate aggression,
    as a da dog.

    i don't.
  17. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //She doesn’t have to “except” dogs that are DA by your definition because she makes quite clear that (a) she is talking about normal dog behaviour and (b) she is talking about dogs that are wrongly labeled aggressive.//

    then she is, by default, lumping them all, referring to "most cases" of da dogs are just stupid humans.
    I'm totally open to what YOU, or anyone else,
    uses for a definition of
    a da dog.
    I do not feel an isolated or infrequent aggressive display from a dog qualifies that dog to be a da dog.

    Da dogs,
    like shy dogs,
    have some pretty consistent markers and behavior patterns.

    i'll happily read any definition YOU feel is appropriate to define a da dog.
  18. tigerlily46514 Honored Member


    As I said in my earlier reply I do think that an owner of a shy dog that puts the shy dog in a situation where that shy dog can’t cope is stupid.//

    i agree, but, sometimes, even the most careful of shy dog owners, can find an unexpected situation, not by choice. As hard we dog owners try to control the world our dogs move through,
    we can't always 100% control the world around us.

    stuff does happen.
  19. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //I do think the owner of a rude dog (you said Buddy is rude in your first post) who allows their dog to approach another dog is rude.//

    Yes, i think, my Buddy might be seen as a rude dog. Not sure, but, probably he is rude as well as a DA dog. Buddy is NOT an "in your face" kind of dog generally, if ever, but, when he dislikes a dog, he is aggressive, just plain ol ugly aggression.

    When Buddy has made friends with a dog, Buddy plays very well, and successfully, with his friend. buddy is not pushy dog, not a dominant dog, not super submissive, either, and sometimes takes turns being 'top dog' with his friends. Buddy can successfully let his friends know when he is done playing, too, without being ugly about it.

    He has good dog manners, IF HE LIKES THE DOG.
    If you saw Buddy playing with one of his friends,
    you would not know Buddy is DA dog.
    I rarely allow Buddy to approach an unknown dog, almost never.
    but, my dog whines when he 'likes' a dog, :D and sometimes, i will allow him to meet an unknown dog if other owner agrees,
    and if Buddy has signalled he will 'like' that dog.
    worst that will happen, is, one dog or the other of the leashed dogs, will bark around and we leave before it escalates further. I always have my "Let's Go" at the ready.

    but, yeah, that is extremely small % of Buddy's meetings with dogs, rare event.
    I go to great lengths to keep my da dog from bothering other dogs, both for his progress, and for the other dog's sense of peace.
    My impression is, most owners of da dogs also do this, (try to keep their da dog away from unknown dogs)
  20. tigerlily46514 Honored Member


    In fact I do believe our behaviour can influence our dogs. If we react badly often our dogs do too.//

    again, with this, all the time, we owners of da dogs get this. Yes, i think to some extent, we can excaberate a dog or stir up a dog,
    but, my dog reacts when i AM calm, (for real, my da dog's reactions are NOT a big deal to ME anymore, not at all, they used to be, but, not at all now. big deal, my dog barked or even fully reacted, so we leave, so what)
    and my dog can stay calm when i am tense, even sweating and shaking.(rare event for me to freak out, but, off leash dogs charging us or kids nearby, can worry me)

    He is his own separate being,
    with his own mind,
    his own ideas. My dog is NOT an extension of me, and is not easily controlled by "my moods", but, wow, do i wish he was!!!

    I know some hyper spazzy dogs owned by calm humans,
    and some laid back, easy going dogs
    owned by tense, stressed out humans.

    more later,
    gotta go, be back later.

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