Trick Challenge: Limp

running_dog said:
Hopefully we'll just have to post our "limp" a bit late. I had just started to get a tiny bit longer out of the paw up by adding a "finish" cue. I use "finish" in a lot of tricks, but maybe a verbal hint it is a deviation from my intention of shaping only? Is adding a verbal finish cue like luring or physical hints? I'm not sure whether I'm playing fair by my original intentions :confused:
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What do you mean by "finish"? I've never heard that before. I've been trying hard to shape only, but since the challenge has a time limit, I'm having to use some hints and verbal cues as well.
 
brodys_mom said:
What do you mean by "finish"? I've never heard that before. I've been trying hard to shape only, but since the challenge has a time limit, I'm having to use some hints and verbal cues as well.
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Just like it is fairly standard to introduce a "break" cue to end a stay I also find it useful when I want a Zac to perform an action several times or with duration to introduce the cue "finish". I'm also finding it useful in interrupting unwanted offerings during training - I was worried about the abrupt "stop" I used in the first stand tall video but noticed happily in one of the later videos that I had unconsciously switched to using "finish it, finish" to interrupt Zac's circling.

In the context of limp once Zac was reliably lifting his right paw when I said "limp" I started to wonder about duration and after various failures I started to say "finish" as I clicked and then before I clicked. Once he understands I can then withhold the click/reward if he drops his paw before I say "finish". Duration still has to be built up slowly but because Zac already understands "finish" it gives a hands off way of speeding up the learning process. If I simply withhold a click when he drops his paw early he starts trying different angles of paw movement and pawing at things, introducing "finish" tells him he's right but needs to hold it a while.

The proper way to shape for duration would probably be to pick out the moments when in expectation of having to raise it's paw in the imminent future the dog is not resting it's full weight on the paw you want it to raise, then it could be rewarded repeatedly as long as it's weight was not fully on that paw and shape it on from that.
 
So "finish" is like "break", letting him know you are satisfied with the number of repeats or duration? I have used a similar cue, kind of a "no reward marker", which is "try again". We have a trick where we play fetch with two identical balls and a basket. Brody must drop his ball into the empty basket before I throw the other ball. Sometimes he gets going so fast that he just tosses the ball and turns to chase the next one, not realizing that he missed the basket. If he doesn't realize it right away, I say "try again" and he has to look for the ball and place it in the basket. So far I have only really used it for this game, but today I started using it with his "lift" cue as he would occasionally only barely lift his foot, but I was looking for a higher or longer lift.
 
Oooooo! Only just found this thread! Geez, we're going to have a whole forum full of limping dogs!!!

I'd join in but Evie already knows limp... it took us quite a long time to teach, but we didn't use shaping..
 
Evie said:
Oooooo! Only just found this thread! Geez, we're going to have a whole forum full of limping dogs!!!

I'd join in but Evie already knows limp... it took us quite a long time to teach, but we didn't use shaping..
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Does Evie know hind leg limp as well as front leg limp? River's learning to limp with a hind leg instead.

You don't need to use shaping it is just that I and it seems also Brody's_mom want to increase our use of shaping, I think most people are starting with targeting and then going on to support the leg while in motion.
 
brodys_mom said:
today I started using it with his "lift" cue as he would occasionally only barely lift his foot, but I was looking for a higher or longer lift.
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I hope it works for you :)

I think "try again" does have a slightly different emphasis, because the dog has already failed when you use it. "finish" tells the dog when he can stop without failing.
 
I am working on both back legs at the same time, because when I taught him limp on the front leg and then awhile later went back to teach him 'hobble' with his other front leg he favored his right paw and now when I point to his left leg sometimes he will still want to lift his right instead because he is more used to it.
 
Any suggestions on what to call this trick with his back leg to use a different word to separate it from the front feet?
 
srdogtrainer said:
I am working on both back legs at the same time, because when I taught him limp on the front leg and then awhile later went back to teach him 'hobble' with his other front leg he favored his right paw and now when I point to his left leg sometimes he will still want to lift his right instead because he is more used to it.
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That is interesting, do you train each side in separate sessions or alternate within the same session? Does River connect the two tricks?
 
running_dog said:
That is interesting, do you train each side in separate sessions or alternate within the same session? Does River connect the two tricks?
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It varies. Sometimes we will alternate other times we focus on one paw and later on switch to the other one.

I'm not sure that he is really connecting the tricks. He has limp on a verbal cue so if I said that and pointed to his back leg he would lift his front.
He is getting really good at holding his leg up for a while but we need a lot of work on taking steps with it up.
 
Poor Zac and poor you. I know the misery of not knowing exactly what is wrong. Hoping Zac's illness can be quickly diagnosed and a cure found for him.

I'll work on paw up with Leaf as she can 'limp' but only with my assistance. Hoping to be able to post a video of her progress this week end - partner is now working again YEAH - so it will have to be the weekend as he's home too late to do it week days and I still haven't managed to do it by myself!
 
MaryK said:
Poor Zac and poor you. I know the misery of not knowing exactly what is wrong. Hoping Zac's illness can be quickly diagnosed and a cure found for him.
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Thank you. He's bouncing back now so I'm trying to work out what treats I can use with him and then hopefully we can get back to training limp...
 
Chloe and I are going to be a little late, as I have been on vacation for about 11 days of this trick challenge, so we haven't had much time to work on this. At this point, Chloe will hold her paw in the air without assistance, and will limp with assistance, but won't limp without assistance. Any advice?
 
kassidybc said:
Chloe and I are going to be a little late, as I have been on vacation for about 11 days of this trick challenge, so we haven't had much time to work on this. At this point, Chloe will hold her paw in the air without assistance, and will limp with assistance, but won't limp without assistance. Any advice?
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Repetition. Lol.

Basically with lots of repetition it will happen. Just be patient :)

When I taught Evie her front leg limp, we got to the holding paw up part, but then it took aggggggggggggessssssssssssssss until she finally took a single step without assistance. Once she got one step, it was fairly quick - more just her building up the muscle, to get her to do multiple steps
 
kassidybc said:
Chloe and I are going to be a little late, as I have been on vacation for about 11 days of this trick challenge, so we haven't had much time to work on this. At this point, Chloe will hold her paw in the air without assistance, and will limp with assistance, but won't limp without assistance. Any advice?
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You're at the same stage Leaf and I are at. Leaf too will hold her paw up without assistance but will only limp with assistance. The moment I take my finger away, she drops her paw.

I think it's a matter of perseverance, building up the muscle memory etc. Good luck, sorry I can't help you.
 
Evie said:
Repetition. Lol.

Basically with lots of repetition it will happen. Just be patient :)

When I taught Evie her front leg limp, we got to the holding paw up part, but then it took aggggggggggggessssssssssssssss until she finally took a single step without assistance. Once she got one step, it was fairly quick - more just her building up the muscle, to get her to do multiple steps
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Yes you're right! Leaf's doing well with assistance but I think it's going to take a lot more repetitions before we get that first unassisted limp step. Once she does, if I know Leaf, she'll not take long to do more than one step.

Muscle building is a big part of this trick that's for sure.
 
running_dog said:
We've got about ONE week left to train the limp challenge!
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EEEEEKKKKKKK!!!!!! We'll make assisted limp easily but unassisted, miracle needed here!!!!!!!!!! Leaf's a very willing worker but.........not sure she'll manage that all important first step without assistance in a week.

We'll keep working though! We never give up!
 
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