Trick Challenge: Limp

Discussion in 'Training Challenges' started by running_dog, Mar 21, 2014.

  1. running_dog Honored Member

    Control is something we are working on but Zac's just feeling rather out of sorts and uninterested in most things at the moment, including treats, food, training, most other dogs and even cats. All was explained when I discovered there is a lovely lurcher in season just down the road! Hopefully he'll snap out of it soon and be back to his usual cheerful self.
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  2. Ripleygirl Experienced Member

    Ahh, I see!
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  3. MaryK Honored Member

    Bummer! Got the 'error try later' message. It's really late here so will try again tomorrow.
  4. MaryK Honored Member

    Leaf and I are in! LOL should have had the camera with me on our walk, I accidently stood on her paw, great limp for a pace or two. And NO it wasn't pay back for all the times she's jumped on my broken toe!
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  5. running_dog Honored Member

    Now now, positive only, no sneaky revenges :D
  6. MaryK Honored Member

    LOL nope no revenges, she's a fantastic little girlie:D

    Actually very proud of her. She's never attempted limp before and we've started really well. I did find something, as per the video, for her to put her paw up onto, and she did that with ease. So we progressed through to her giving me her paw - she's a 'right pawed dog' and although she can do right paw, left paw, her preference is of course the right paw. She offered her paw with ease, so taking a bold step I tried getting her to walk - luring I admit with a treat in front - she 'limped' along for around four/five steps with her paw resting on my hand. I didn't need to 'encourage' her (except with the treat) at all. Feel she would have done more but this place is very small, it's broiling hot again outside, and we literally ran out of room and into my older boy Zeus (he's our 'audience' and gets the odd treat for sitting still like a good boy).

    And I only had a few minutes time wise, which disgusted Leaf who likes a good half hour training! Not bad for just a few minutes work. Now of course the tough step (no pun intended) getting her to 'limp' without my hand under her paw. Don't won't the rush the gal but she's really 'limping' along quite happily - FOOD OMD she'll do anything for food! She's not fussed at all by 'limping' on three legs.

    Also, at present I'm just asking for 'paw' and holding out my hand. When do you feel it's best to change to 'limp' for the cue and what hand signal would be appropriate - they always give me a headache! Will try to get partner to video her first part of training, hopefully tomorrow or over the week end, though I maybe busy with work.
  7. brody_smom Experienced Member

    We're having a bit of a struggle with the limp challenge. Brody is pretty good with the lift part, but he wants to lean into me. If I sit on the floor, he moves sideways and lifts his foot and rests it on my lap. If I stand up, he still moves right next to me and leans against my legs. I am trying to only reward him for standing away from me, but he won't do it. I am also having trouble getting him to take a step while keeping the leg up. Any suggestions?
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  8. MaryK Honored Member

    Do you use a target stick? You may be able to try getting him to lift/target the stick with his paw. Also, this means a bit of bending/leaning on your part, try standing well away from him and extending you hand out and the moment he touches your hand click/treat.

    Have you tried using a low stool or similar object as per the video? I did this with Leaf, but have to say she will target easily and doesn't lean (had a GS who was a 'leaner' and it is hard with some tricks to stop them leaning). But if you use a stool or similar and place it between you and Brody, then he may get it to target the stool without being able to lean on you. Once he targets the stool, then you could remove the stool and try again with just your hand.

    I'm not an expert on this trick, just starting doing it with Leaf, who's 'limping' at a fast rate but still needs my finger as support, so others will undoubtedly have a better solution. But until Master Brody will give you his paw without learning, I wouldn't try to get him to walk. It's an advanced trick, so one step at a time, take it easy and work on getting the paw without the lean. Don't think I do it sitting on the floor though, that may encourage him to lean more.

    When you can get him to paw without leaning, then start to move forward. I use a treat as a lure, although sometimes now she'll just do it with my hand held in front, then click/treat when he takes even one small step.

    Good luck he'll make it, just take it one baby step at a time:)
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  9. MaryK Honored Member

    One bit more, sorry forgot this. Is Brody right or left pawed? If you're not sure, just watch which leg he uses first when he's walking, if it's his right then he's a right pawed dog, if left then he's left pawed. Personally I would, at this stage, work with his right paw, if he's right pawed or left if he's left pawed. Dogs are like people, if they're right pawed then they will 'offer' that paw more easily than the left one and vice versa.
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  10. brody_smom Experienced Member

    I used the wrong word. He isn't really leaning on me, that is, he is holding his foot up just fine. It's more like he's pushing into me with his side before he even lifts the leg. (We have been working mostly with the right side, although he knows "lift" for both, depending on which side I am standing. We have to wipe his feet nearly every time he comes back inside as the yard is very muddy.) I have tried pushing against him, but he pushes harder, and then he really is leaning. I am having trouble communicating to him that I want him to be away from me. I will try using a stool, but I thought to skip that step since he already knew how to hold the leg up. Maybe I need it just to create the distance. The problem is that the two stools we have are used as cues for other behaviors, one being the elephant trick, the other for backing up onto in preparation for the handstand. Maybe I can find a box.
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  11. running_dog Honored Member

    When you are
    When I am wiping a dogs feet I find that the contact with the dog is part of the action, Brody just thinks it is a necessary part of the trick - maybe even the main part of the trick. So you kind of need to separate the contact and the paw lift. I think I'd do the opposite of what you are doing (leaning into him) and instead fade the lean by leaning less and less, maybe even move away suddenly and click for that instant of zero contact. It shouldn't take long for him to get the idea that zero contact gets the reward and then he'll shift his balance to support himself properly and you can build up the duration again.
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  12. brody_smom Experienced Member

    Yes, I think you are right. He was very intent on the contact, but we have been doing some work on back end awareness, so I thought this one would be in the same vein. I brought out a two-step stool, thinking I could get him to put his paw up on that. He would only put his front paws on, and when I didn't click for that, he just lay down. I decided to use the steps as a barrier instead, just to keep the space between me and him, then ask for the lift while he targeted my hand. This worked much better, and he didn't even put his foot up on the step at all. I did place my hand under his foot a few times at the end of our session, not really lifting it, but stopping him from lowering, then clicked for the duration. Hopefully we will see some progress with these changes. Still working on the video, but since we haven't made much headway, no loss!
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  13. running_dog Honored Member

    The barrier was a great idea, he just needed a hint to get him to understand what you want.

    I haven't been able to do anything much in the way of training so not much headway here either. Zac's grumbling pancreatitis is grumbling madly at the moment so I can't even do shaping with him a) because he won't/can't/shouldn't eat and b) because trying to work things out during shaping is a little bit too "stressful" for his interior.
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  14. MaryK Honored Member

    Good work Brody's Mom:D(y)

    Poor Zac, hope he's feeling much better now(y)

    Leaf's making excellent progress - pity my partner isn't with the video:rolleyes:

    We're doing the limp (with assistance) but I no longer have to lure her - just reward heavily after the click.

    Tried today removing my finger, all that she needs for support, and she did hold her paw up for a nano-second and darn it, my click was too slow (maybe I was a little stunned?). Tried again but she dropped her paw immediately, so went back to 'supporting limp' using just one finger.

    Any suggestions as to how to get her to limp without my finger supporting her? Would it help to train her to keep her paw lifted in the 'limp' position without actually moving?
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  15. brody_smom Experienced Member

    I've decided to go for the sustained hold before attempting any forward movement. I think this may help with balance and muscle development. It may take a few more days before we can get to the actual limping, but may be worth it in the end. Much like the development needed to do the handstand, it has to be done over time in order to build the strength to hold the position before they can walk at the same time.
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  16. brody_smom Experienced Member

    Is this in combination with his distraction with the female in season? Or was it a misdiagnosis? Poor Zac!
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  17. brody_smom Experienced Member

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  18. MaryK Honored Member

    Thank you for the share. Dogs are just amazing!!!!!!!!!

    I knew a dog (GS) who was involved in a car accident and both front and back legs on the same side where injured so badly amputation was the only solution. The vet was sceptical about the dog's ability to lead a 'normal' life, that he would never manage to balance with both legs on the same side removed etc. etc. However his humans decided to at least give him a chance. Suffice to say that after recovering from surgery and a bit of unsteadiness at first, he was soon able to race around as if nothing had happened!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think it's a dog's ability to not worry about looks etc. which gives them the edge over humans when it comes to what we perceive as a 'disability' - they just don't 'see' that at all - 'o.k. I can run, just gotta adjust my balance' is their motto.

    Loved that he was allowed to run around au natural on the beach!
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  19. running_dog Honored Member

    My plan was also to go for a sustained paw up before trying to work on movement. Mostly because I think it means the dog is more secure with what you want before starting to combine it with new elements.
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  20. running_dog Honored Member

    I think it is in combination, the stress of being aware of the female in season may even be a cause of his illness if it is stress related, his worst grumbles seem to have been after walking her route or passing her house. But anyway I think we are going to miss the deadline on this challenge now as we've had to be at the vets twice in 12 hours with whatever this is (my own vet is still unsure whether it is IBS or pancreatitis) and Zac doesn't look like he's bouncing back to full health quickly.

    Hopefully we'll just have to post our "limp" a bit late. I had just started to get a tiny bit longer out of the paw up by adding a "finish" cue. I use "finish" in a lot of tricks, but maybe a verbal hint it is a deviation from my intention of shaping only? Is adding a verbal finish cue like luring or physical hints? I'm not sure whether I'm playing fair by my original intentions :confused:
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