Discussion in 'Dog Behavior Problems' started by tigerlily46514, May 23, 2011.
I know about this way of looking at puppies, it is used here too. But I am a sucker for the ones who are different... I am ususally the one to go home with the smallest, or the shy one
I still don't how I managed to pick Jinx from her litter, as one of her sisters stuck in my mind a very long time. She was the runt of the lot, and did turn out to be a real beauty.
Another sister had a white head(not a good sign, since it CAN predict blindness or deffness) That was one of the reasons I did not choose her. SHe is perfectly fine though and in her behaviour, she is truly Jinx her twin. I am in contact with her owners and they show amazing similarities.
Katz... please don't make the same mistake as I did...
I have done this with my dog and his behaviour only got worse. Of course your dog is not the same as my dog, and maybe it would work for him.
But my trainer has taken this form of dominating completely out of her program. She did so, because she had to conclude that it does not work for most dogs.
At Anneke, i so so so understand, the difficulty in accepting the idea that dogs can be born to be aggressive, with the wiring in place, so that the dog lives with an entirely different balance of hormones, chemicals, serotonin, dopamine, etc than other dogs do.
Me, i think when it dawned on me, the dog is wired wrong, i think i did go through a bum-out period of time AT FIRST, but, then, something good happened in how *i* saw Buddy's problem, hard to explain, but, i felt better. My frustration with my own inability to 'cure' him went away. I even now have a sense of humor about his problem.
BUT I DON'T WANT TO CONVEY that i have 'given up' on buddy, i KNOW i can make Buddy better, or worse, and i also believe that to be true of *all* dogs with problems, whether their problem is caused, or inborn.
WE *CAN* MAKE EVEN THE INHERENTLY SHY DOG
THE INHERENTLY AGGRESSIVE DOG
A LIL BIT BETTER, or a EVEN a lot better,
and we all know we can sooooooooo make them WORSE!! LOL, that is true!
I myself don't find accepting the idea that buddy's aggression being permanent-----(like the lifelong aggression found in millions of other dogs) as a depressing idea. Well, maybe, yes at first i did, but, then, i came to see it in an entirely different light, and i STILL work to help him become his best self. He IS BETTER!!! But, he'll always be my lil gangsta, and that is how it is. And i am MUCH better at helping prevent reactions, and handling his reactions, too, i've learned a lot from Buddy. Me and Buddy are BOTH 'better' ha ha!!
I have a mentally challenged relative, who will never ever join a Mensa club, but, he can still learn *some* things, so we all work to help him become his best self that he can be, and our accepting his limitations that he ws born with, actually makes it EASIER to work towards reasonable goals for him, and it makes accepting the set backs, easier, cuz, he was born that way. But, if we thought he was just being a slacker, or if we were annoyed with our own selves for being unable to improve him much, well, if we did not accept his limitations, well, i imagine we'd all be upset all the time that he "just wasn't getting it", or, that we just weren't good helpers.
also, i ALSO do think *some* aggressive dogs can be created, but those dogs, who have "learned" a maladaptive behavior, can also UNLEARN it, if they had 'normal' brains all along, like 95% of Michael Vick's dogs all rehabbed fine, once they got away from there and were treated right.
SO, i won't argue with anyone who says *some* dogs can be made aggressive, however, we humans can not create a PERMANENTLY LIFELONG aggressive dog who can't be rehabbed.
There's just tooooo many dogs, puppies, who have suffered horrible abuses, yet,
turned out just lovely.
There's just toooooo many dogs, puppies, who were raised perfectly well, yet,
turned out aggressive, or supershy.
but, if it is inborn, THEN it all makes sense. all of it.
and when i read up on the physical differences found consistently in aggressive dogs, and the reverse findings found in the "anxious" dogs (do they mean the shy dogs?) being consistantly abnormal, well, then i felt pretty convinced this is inborn..... cuz Humans can't impact the number of serotonin receptors in a dog's skull. We just can't.
ANYWAY, FUN discussion, let me know if you have any questions, cuz, you DO ask really good questions!!
Also, i don't have anything to say about an entire breed being labelled as aggressive, except, that each dog is an individual. I'm only discussing INDIVIDUAL dogs being born aggressive,
not an entire breed being labelled as aggressive.
I know some pit bulls who are total lovebugs, love all ppl and all dogs, and i know some Pomerians who bite eveyone they see. So we have to try to meet each dog as an individual.
Yes, it's true, in USA, the dog who bites ppl MOST OFTEN is the golden retriever. HOWEVER----------i think this is because the breed is wildly popular, so that breed is AROUND PPL more than any other breed, and also, that breed is most often put next to small children, who may accidentally provoke a dog into biting. I also think, many dogs, sooner or later, may reach their limit on what they can and will tolerate, ha ha, and that same dog, if he didn't have a two year old trapping him into a corner poking his eyes, may never have ever bitten anyone.
I also don't think *all* dogs who have ever bitten, can be labelled "agressive", there CAN BE extenuating circumstances for the dog who has only bitten one person, etc.
yes, Katz, feel free to post about your dog's behavior, either here, or feel free to start your own thread on whatever it is you are worried about your dog, so it wont' get 'lost' in this 10 page thread!! ha ha
I so agree with Running Dog's reply about the trainer doesn't sound really good to me, either.
Here is a thread, on choosing a trainer, that you might find interesting:
(anyone can hang out a sign "dog trainer"...and they are NOT all equal in ability or skill or idealogy or methods, nope, trainers are NOT all equal!!)
//"Our police K9 handler says I definitely need to alpha roll him a few times when I see him changing."//
OH NO! that K9 guy is another dog whisperer fan, turn off the dog whisperer, he is toxic, and DO turn on "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stillwell.
Please don't do this alpha roll. It only adds further to your dog's lack of confidence or trust, it will NOT create a calm dog. In the wild, alphas do NOT do this to others.
//"I try to keep him well exercised and seperated from the others...I am sure no one else would put so much work into him."//
I'm sure your dog IS lucky to have YOU!! AND you are not alone, Actually, there are a TON of us out here, all working to help our dogs become their best selves ever.
//" I certainly show no fear around him or allow his poor behavior,,,,,,,,,,,,,"//
This smacks of dog whisperer, too. the old i mean old-ER theory on dog aggression, used to be, (well, it still is popular): "the dog was abused/neglected/not socialized/was OVER socialized/was frightened/was stared at too hard by an older dog/was yanked by his collar/etc etc" is *why* a dog is aggressive, however, Caesar Milan has begun hypnotizing USA that the reason the dogs are aggressive, is,
cuz the dog is manifesting his humans secret inner issues.
There is absolutely ZERO research to support this theory, either.....
still, i find Milan's theory even more hilarious than most of OTHER theories.........!
What, if Bill has 4 dogs, and only ONE is aggressive, does this mean the other 3 dogs are too dumb to pick up on Bill's secret inner issue? rofl.
I know some pretty weird, high-strung ppl who have marvelous easy going dogs.
Us being calm does NOT prevent our aggressive dogs from reacting, however, i do think, if our dog is upset, and we also freak out, we could "add" some extra intensity to our dog's reactions. But the dog is reactive, cuz he his brain is wired wrong. NOt cuz you are not confident enough, or whatever.
An aggressive dog is NOT caused by the human's personality, so you can toss that one out the window. Even flat out abuse, can't create a permanently aggresive dog. Many many stories of puppies and dogs found severely abused, but turned out JUST LOVELY!!
I know some very confident ppl who have messed up dogs, and i know some jerks who have lovely dogs. Dogs are not "manifestations" of US, but they are their own unique individual selves.
actually, THE NEW DOG WHISPERER "THEORY" ON DOG AGGRESSION
(that the dog "manifests" his human's inner personality problem) must have amused some scientists, and so they did some tests,----------- to prove, the human's personality had nothing to do with helping out a dog who is aggressive:
turn off the dog whisperer---he'll only mess you up.
When my dog approaches other dogs he raises his head, curls his tail higher and puffs up. He goes directly toward them and chest bumps them. If they retreat before he gets there he either leaves them alone...or if they are unlucky he will grab their necks. He has injured one of my dogs. The behavior started early this summer. Most of the time he is good natured. This is not an everyday occurence. He never backs away from a dog he is meeting. He has never tried to bite a dog while we are out and about but he is always in his sled dog mode, harnessed and flying. I sometimes wonder if it is partially because of the slower summer training schedule. They do not run if weather is above 60. Earlier this summer he actually ate a bird and always seems to be searching for the next bird or rabbit....he actually nearly cause us to wreck as he tried to take off after a turkey feather that blew past him. He jumped sideways and bolted after it, while in tandom lead with my shy Alaskan Husky. She was startled by the feather (it was kind of big!) and did not want to go near it. When we left he constantly kept rechecking the area where it flew too until we were out of site of the location. My dogs are used for bikjoring and wrecks hurt!!! We avoid them LOL.
Umm, well Siberian Huskies are the one breed I have met that have bigger prey/chase drive than the sighthounds. I know one that catches songbirds and on one horrible day chomped up a chicken in a farmyard ALL while walking on leash! There is another local pair that hunt deer - their owner is very irresponsible and physically can't hold on to the dogs at the best of times. But prey drive is totally different to dog aggression, two of the above huskies LOVE other dogs, one is dog aggressive.
I'm nonplussed by the chest bumping, do you mean he barges them holding his head high above their back and neck? It doesn't sound like classic dog aggression though, it sounds more like a dominant dog with a communication problem. Hopefully someone will come along who understands a bit more than me but if you are using the alpha rolls, I really would stop. An alpha roll will (maybe) teach the dog that YOU are boss but it will also teach him that the way to prove HE is boss is to pin other dogs (and maybe you) on the ground by their necks...
Woohoo! I just wanted to let you all know my "dog aggressive" is MUCH better!!! I owe this to hard work and LOTS of time. I simply increased his exercise...limited his doggie friends to times away from his kennel. I ordered a book on my kindle about rehabilitating shy dogs and made a list of the behaviors mush like they do for the fearful dogs. I noticed his aggression was primarily in his kennel or right when he got out of his kennel. He now gets out of the kennel before the other sled dog to release his burst of energy prior to our runs. My husband has taken an interest in bikjoring with me so that has helped.
This has fixed the problem at home for the most part but we still watch him close while encountering other dogs, read their body language before allowing any kind of meet...and never let him pause while running to meet a dog as his energy level is on GO GO GO. Still need work on meeting strange dogs...but better!
OH, good work, Katz! YAY!!
I know I'm late on this thread but I totally agree that some dogs are just born with dog-aggression or other aggression, but I think most dogs with aggression are like that from abuse, bad experience or unsocialized.
I have had a highly aggressive dog who was socialized around other dogs and humans starting about 8 weeks maybe a little older. He came to my little brothers baseball games were kids were running around screaming dogs everywhere and he was perfectly fine with it. He would often play with other dogs and had a best friend that was a wiener dog. With baseball season over we stopped going when it started back up he, Domino was wanting to kill every dog in site and no he did not just wanted to fight he wanted to kill every dog in sight no matter how far away. For the most part he was probably aggressive cause our other dog/his dad would bite and attack him as a puppy after a while we had to keep them separated cause Domino would attack out of fear of his dad. So he may have been naturally aggressive and being attacked could have osculated it or it may have just been from being attacked.
You say, initially, Domino got on well with other dogs, at age 8weeks on and as a puppy, but then later on, Domino displayed dog aggression....did anyone memorizie HOW OLD was Domino when he first acted aggressive to other dogs?
//"...but I think most dogs with aggression are like that from abuse, bad experience or unsocialized."//
of course you think this!!
everyone thinks this.
It's almost heresy to NOT think this. Feathers fly if the accepted meme is even questioned!!
It's like the old children's book, "The Emporer's Clothes" .
We are told this, by everyone, absolutly everyone, even dog authorities, everyone says this, why would you even question it?
But science disagrees.
These aggressive dogs have physical abnormalities in their brains and bloodstreams. ALL of them.
and NO 'normal' behaving dog has ever ever been discovered to share these same abnormalities, not one dog. If there is such a dog, he has never been discovered in all the studies done, by multiple geneticist research teams from all around the world, not one such dog has ever been discovered.
but even common sense should make us question the theory.
There are 1,000s of dogs, well socialized in proper manner, never suffered any abuse other than to have to wait to get their biscuit,
they manifest aggression.
There are 1000s of stories of dogs, rescued from the worst abuse you can imagine,
they stand there, loving everyone and all other dogs.
sure, sure, "abuse" is why dogs are aggressive.
No doubt, we can take a dog with a normal brain, and get him to act aggressively..........for a while. but, once he is rescued from the abuse, he rehabs quite readily. LIke MIchael Vick's dogs, almost all rehabbed beautifully and quickly back to normal behavior, dispite a lifetime of abuse.
Great news Katz.
Well done for identifying the likely flashpoints for your dog's aggression and finding ways to manage his behaviour I just wish more people took the time to work with their dogs like you have.
Domino was about 8 months old maybe older when he became aggressive. I'm not sure if he was like this because he was attacked by his dad or if it was just how he was born, but he was best friends with Missy, his mom.
Like I said before I do agree with you that dogs can be born aggressive or shy. I say that I think that a lot of dogs are aggressive because they weren't socialized is because I've noticed not a lot of people take their dogs out on walks anymore or to the park. Basically everyone in my neighborhood has a dog only me and my next door neighbor walk out dogs my cousins who live in my neighborhood my walk their dog once a month and never take them anywhere are aggressive they bite at joggers and bikers one actually bit my mom they are also very mean to my dog. I think this is because they never get out to get rid of there energy. This is why I think a lot of dogs have issues because of owners, but I may be totally wrong. I'm very much aware that there are many dogs out there who have awesome owners but are aggressive because that's just how they were born.
//"Domino was about 8 months old maybe older when he became aggressive. I'm not sure if he was like this because he was attacked by his dad or if it was just how he was born, but he was best friends with Missy, his mom"//
Most of the dog-aggressive dogs i hear about, all have some dogs they do love. My dog is dog-aggressive, but, he has wide circle of doggie pals he LOVES!!! It is *most* (not ALL, but *most*) UNKNOWN dogs that set off a dog-aggressive dog)
yes, 9 mos old is typical age of onset for inborn dog aggression. Some dogs, like yours, do have humans who notice it a bit earlier,
and some dogs, especially if owned by homebodies who don't get much company nor walk their dogs much around UNKNOWN dogs, don't report til it as late as 12 mos old, but, the overwhelming majority of humans notice it at about 9 mos old. (IN OTHERWISE HEALTHY DOGS)
by 12 mos old, most of these dogs are being brought to trainers, or vets, etc, and these ppl, since they've all been hypnotized that abuse "causes" dog aggression, are racking their brains to remember what "abuse" or "lack of proper socialization" they did wrong.
Almost all humans do come up with some "event", that they feel "triggered" their dogs aggression............. if they think back very very hard, they find one, and say THAT day is what ruined their dog for life. sometimes, the events they report sound ridicously trivial, yet, the human clings to the notion, that THAT day is what ruined their dog's inner brain and bloodstream for life.
"Oh, must have been that time a dog scared my puppy..."
"oh, must have been that time, my dog got bit by another dog"
these same ppl manage to overlook alllllll the dogs who DID suffer horrible abuse, MUCH worse than a dog scaring or even biting their dog, yet, THOSE dogs, who DID suffer horrible abuse,
love eveyrone and other dogs.
makes no sense.
yet, most ppl seem to struggle with the concept,
that a disorder CAN be inborn,
yet not manifest IMMEDIATLEY upon birth.
IMPOSSIBLE! They say, they even GET ANGRY if you suggest it as an option, as if you've insulted dogdom.
everyone agrees, the very complex herding behavior of many border collies, IS on the dog's DNA.
The mutated malformed hip in the GSD, does not show up in the litter box, but IS on the dog's DNA.
Many disorders or behaviors, that ARE born in,
do NOT manifest in the litter box.
I get impression,
that despite all the top geneticicsts, and veterinary research teams, who all identify the exact same anomalies in aggressive dogs,
for ppl to believe dog-aggression can be inborn,
the infant dog must display it in the litter box!! rofl!!!
THAT's the whole problem in getting humans to accept a dog CAN have an inborn problem (or skill) which does not manifest in the litter box. It HAS TO show up "right away" or it can not be on the dog's DNA, is what many ppl seem to think,.
the bad hips of many GSDs do not show up in the litter box....
the worlds best herding border collie, won't show any urge to herd in the litter box....
a great sighthound won't go chasing prey while in the litterbox.........
yet, these behaviors ARE set to go off LATER------------as the dog begins to mature, -------by his DNA.
but aggression, if it doesn't show in the litter box, it "can't be inborn" is how most humans understand it, dispite allllllll the research that shows aggressive dogs ALWAYS but ALWAYS have mishapen amygdalas in their brains,
and abnormal levels of serotonin, dopamine, adrenaline, zinc, and omega 3 levels in their bloodstreams,
to name a FEW of the PHYSICAL abnormalities found in ALL aggressive dogs, but NEVER found in "normal" dogs.
There are physical differences found in ALL aggressive dogs,
but never ever found in dogs who behave "normally".
it's born in.
we CAN take a 'normal' dog, and create a TEMPORARILY aggressive dog,
sure we can! but those dogs revert to 'normal' brained behavior quite readily.
the born in aggressive dog,
will be aggressive for life, on some level,
we can CERTAINLY make aggressive dogs BETTER, or WORSE, but we can't create one that persists his whole life dispite many therapies to heal it. that kind, is born in, and has been proven to have physical abnormalities in his brain and bloodstream.
and dog-aggression (towards other dogs) does tend to manifest at about 9 mos old or so.....
I firmly believe that aggression can be born into certain dogs. My two Boxers can be proof to that.
When we went to TN for these pups we also recieved their brother, Axel. Jinx was given to my mother and I, Axel was given to my dad as a truck dog and Isis was given to my brother also as a truck dog. My dad and brother drive semis and like to have one dogs with them in the truck so they don't get lonely.
Jinx was brought to Petsmart everyday and was allowed to play with both people and animals at the local nursing home. A lot of socialization was put into making sure she was okay around everyone.
Isis was with my brother's truck most of time socializing with other truckers and their dogs. She had an excellent recall when playing and was welcome into many of the truck stops because of her manners.
Axel was with my dad and regularly met up with Isis and my brother. He was also allowed into truck stops and many truckers loved playing with him.
Isis and Jinx are both human and animal aggressive (I would say it started around 10months). Axel was fine with both people and animals til his death (He died at 11 months from a blood clot). I heard from others that got their litter mates. At least 3 others were aggressive as well, more so than Jinx and Isis. Two of the other puppies were just like Axel, perfectlly okay with humans and animals. I'm almost positive that there was a gene of aggression in this litter.
//"I currently do believe people-agression is taught/ learned, a result of not being socialized, something, so far as i know right now, and ppl agression IS VERY highly curable. My own dog was also ppl=agressive, but, we cured him of that 100%."//
I now disagree with my own remark, above. My above remark applies only to dog-aggressive dogs, not shy dogs.
I have learned more about the shy dogs. Not all shy dogs become ppl-aggressive, but, shy dogs do have the primary target of humans. Shy dogs are wayyyyyy more likely to bite humans, than dog-aggressive dogs.
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