Some Dogs Are Born Dog-aggressive, Imo

Discussion in 'Dog Behavior Problems' started by tigerlily46514, May 23, 2011.

  1. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    @Anneke, HANG IN THERE!! Thank you for kind words, and do not give up, nor be hard on yourself. Working to help an aggressive dog is NOT easy, and most of us have to learn from scratch how to best approach it. I know, i have made mistakes with Buddy, but, Buddy always stands ready to give me another chance to do better.

    I so so so *hope* that you will also see the difference from walking Cooper in a heel, that i witnessed with Buddy. I hope hope hope i am not setting you up for a disappointment, that just crossed my mind, that i might be doing that. Cuz all dogs are different, and what helps one dog, might not help another, and last thing i want to do, is set you up for a disappointment, like, if you do walk Cooper for 2 months in a heel everytime, and then, if Cooper is not a bit better, it might break your heart cuz i have set you up to expect improvement. So, i might have done wrong there, to set you up like that, so it's only fair, to caution, it did not 'cure' Buddy, nope nope nope, ha ha, nope, my lil dog is still a gangsta, but, he IS better.
    And you walking Cooper only in a heel, (while providing him chances to run full speed somewhere else) *might* not bring the improvement i did witness in Buddy, cuz all dogs are different. And it is obvious, you are a soft-hearted person, and if Cooper is not better, after all my insistance you give it a try, well, then, maybe i've set you up for a let-down, so try not to have a let-down, if i am full of baloney, okay???
    and if you find things that do help Cooper, please also share the idea, so i can also try that on Buddy, too.

    AT any rate, Anneke, i have zero doubt, that you are doing the best anyone could for Cooper, no doubt in my mind, that you are trying your best, and sorting your way to find what helps your dog. It is so nice to discuss dog-aggression with someone who is trying as hard as you are, and thinking about it, as much as you are. That right there, is huge plus for Cooper, your willingness to find the best way to help him.

    DON'T GIVE UP, I am sure you are making progress!!

    btw, Buddy *only* gets the treat when he looks right at my eyes. I have made mistakes on that cue, by accidentally treating him for looking AT THE TREAT, but, luckily, Buddy stands ready to let me get it right, so i was able to correct my error there. I practice, with the treats held out in each arm, far out to my sides, see?
    And Buddy has to bring his gaze away from the yummy treats,
    onto MY FACE, "LOOK AT ME".....
    not the treats in each hand....
    THEN he gets click/treat.

    I then move treats even closer to HIS face/mouth, still, Buddy has to look at MY FACE, not the treat so close to his face, to get the click/treat.

    Then, over time, once Buddy understands, "ohhh, i have to look at HER to get the treat, okayyyyy, got it."
    THEN i ask for a longer look at my face, before i click/treat. HOpe that helps Cooper get the hang of it.
    worth a try.

    in the presence of enemy dogs, i DO also squat down, to make it easier for him to put his att'n on my face, which IS now right in front of HIS face....sometimes i stay standing up, but, more often, i squat down in front of Buddy, with Buddy's BACK to the enemy dog.

    but oh dawg, Anneke, you are sooooooooo right, working with a dog with issues, SURE DOES TAKE TIME, that is yet another thing we who have 'special' dogs learn, is PATIENCE and PERSISTANCE!! HA HA!!

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    I wasn't entirely sure i spotted the 'one' question in your post, that you had mentioned you would prefer we narrow the scope down to one question, so feel free to repeat it, if i missed it, i am feeling fairly dense today. (i like to add in "today" to make it sound like on other days, i am NOT dense, rofl)

    //"I want to set you straight on that. I KNOW Ollie was made people aggressive, it was totally my fault, ase Oliver is NOT aggressive, he is FEAR aggressive, and MOST dogs that are aggressive, are actually driven by fear"//

    I feel bad, Sara, that you feel you caused Ollie's issues, and it is your right to feel that way, but, it is just hard for me, knowing what i know about you----a committed, caring, sensitive dog lover, could 'mess up' a dog for life. If you say you caused it, i have no right to argue you on that, but, inside my heart and mind, i doubt it very seriously, especially cuz of who you are.

    I DO AGREE, so much, that there IS a fear component in most dog-aggression!! Absolutely, this makes sense to me. In post #10 of this thread, i explain which of Buddy's 4 or 5 known reactions, are fear-based. Buddy's GSD reaction, is entirely fear-based.
    Unlike most guardians of aggressive dogs, *i* sort out Buddy's various types of reactions into 4 types. Maybe other DA dogs have only ONE kind, but, Buddy has at least 4 types of reactions. I could watch Buddy on film, and decribe the type of dog he is reacting TO, even if i can't see the other dog in the film.

    and not *all* Buddy's reactions appear fear based to ME. Maybe Buddy is unique in that respect, but, do read post #10 on Buddy's 4 types of reactions. if you are interested.
    and again, it might only be MY dog, who has MORE than one type of reaction. Still, i do believe, all of his types of reactions share an inability to respond properly----------- he goes straight for "I'M NUTZ!"/blow a fuse, no matter if it is a prey-based reaction outa control, or "i can't stand puppies" reaction, or a "ohmidawg, it's a frightening GSD!" reaction, something in Buddy's brain blows a fuse for all his reactions,
    although, i sense fear is NOT present in his puppy-reaction, nor his 'chihuahua' reaction.
    However, the fear is quite palpable in his GSD reaction.

    I guess, i don't usually sort out dog-aggression into whether it is fear-based or not, i do tend to lump it all together as "aggression"......
    but, you have a good idea there, to distinguish whether the type of aggression each dog has is fear based or not.

    To me, inappropriate aggression is aggression, is aggression, whether it is based on fear or not. Buddy is NOT 'afraid' of puppies, yet, he reacts to *most* puppies. However, THAT reaction looks nothing like what he does when he sees a GSD, and his GSD reaction looks nothing like his chihuahua reaction, which to ME, appears to be some queer mix of predator + his baseline inablity to control any excitement about dogs in general + his dog-aggression coming in as well.
    I've always suspected, since Buddy had ONLY rats to play with, for whole life, (he lived in rat-infested barn, 24/7) that somehow, somehow, the small thin-legged dogs who have short fur, always elicit an especially insane form of reaction in Buddy, but, i could be full of baloney, that is mere speculation there, on the rat thing..)

    Still, i do call what he does towards puppies a form of aggresssion. Maybe you wouldn't though, not sure. Even some 'normal' dogs tend to get honked off at puppies, even puppies who are sitting calmly, not acting up, not sure why even some 'normal' dogs do that to puppies. Obviously, if puppy is acting up, an older dog might 'correct' a hyper puppy, but, a calm puppy is also sometimes 'yelled at' by dogs, no idea why THAT happens..

    i've been losing posts lately, so i'll post this, and then i have some more remarks too, in next posts.
  3. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"The only DA dog I know that does not fit into the fear catagory is a dog who was perfectly fine until the age of 3, when she started unprovoked attacks on foster puppies"//

    Sara, I found several of your stories, amazing and very interesting. This one interests me, as i only rarely hear of dogs who begin to manifest their dog-aggression at age 3 or older. I've heard 'some' stories like that, but they are so far outnumbered by humans who could ended up in trainers or vets offices with 1 year old dog. That actually was discussed in one of the research links, is, the age most owners of DA dogs seek help. (which, i assume, would also include FA dogs, as the researchers did not sort out the FA dogs from DA dogs).
    With older dogs presenting for first time for help with DA, the researchers noted, USUALLY the humans did report, a the dog had exhibited earlier issues, but, the owners often dismissed it, felt they could handle it, wasn't a real problem due to set-up of few other dogs around, etc etc.

    Still, it does seem, that a few or even some dogs, don't fully display their dog-aggression til 2 or 3 years old!! Which i find interesting. I wonder if there are any studies which sort out such late-display dogs as to size of dog, or something, possibley delayed maturity or some other factor is unaccounted for with late-display dogs. Just wondering. I have not yet ever heard of a late-display shy dog, though, not even one.

    but I haven't ever heard of a 'normal' dog, who displayed ongoing, life-long persistant severe shyness, suddenly, at like age 2 or 3 or 5. Have you? Every shy dog i've ever heard of, was that way from birth on. Certainly, i suppose, if someone was nutz, and wanted to try to create a shy dog from a normal dog, they probably could TEMPORARILY, but, i think, the dog would revert to his normal brained behavior, once he ws removed from the nut who tried to make a shy dog.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"but I think, most often dog aggression is caused by something causing a fear response that works, the fear goes away and a behaviour is born."//

    now this remark, i wasn't entirely certain what "response that works" meant. Do you have any research which supports this "most" theory of yours? It IS widely widely,
    almost unanimously
    but, is there any research to support it?
    THERE IS MUCH MUCH MUCH RESEARCH on the genetics of dog-aggression, much which proves in the dogs they studied, that IT WAS inherited, but, i haven't seen any research on "most" LIFELONG, PERSISTANT, dog aggression is 'caused'.

    And what about allllllllllll the exceptions, Sara?
    what about all the dogs, who were raised by vets, dog behaviorists, who know the dog suffered no abuse, no neglect, no under or over socializiation, and yet,
    their dog turned out DA against all odds?

    What about 2 dogs, side by side, raised exactly the same, but only ONE of the 2 dogs turns out DA?

    What about all the dogs who WERE ABUSED, severly neglected, NEVER socialized, at all, suffered terrible lives, yet, turn out lovely?

    what about alllllllllllllll the research i've posted, which shows there IS an inherited gene or genes that causes aggression?

    Sara, do you think a border collies ability to herd, is on the gene? yes or no. (yes, yes, not all BCs can herd, but, many or most show the urge/tendency/ability)
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"I am not against your theories, I just think you are putting this on way too many dogs, I know we're splitting hairs, and I want you to know I do believe that a very small minority can be born DA, but it's highly unlikely"//

    Sara, i remain very open to any research or studies (not opinion blogs) taht you have to support your idea on this topic. Lol, i sort of feel the same,
    i DO AGREE, humans CAN cause a dog-aggressive dog, or a ppl-aggressive dog, i DO! I DO!!
    but, the caused kind is curable, NOT lifelong. LIke Buddy's ppl-aggression, was curable.
    whereas the inborn kind, because IT IS demonstrated to be visible in their blood work, in their brains, IS permanent.
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    BUT SARA, OF ALL YOUR REMARKS, i find this one most fascinating of ALL:

    //"I have rehabbed DA dogs before (Rez dogs int he rescue I volunteer with), and once they're no longer fearful of other dogs, they're perfectly happy to play. "//

    do you know how extremely difficult it is, to locate ANYONE who claims to have cured a DA DOG?? Sara, you might become famous, and will be in high demand!!
    I am fascinated to learn more, what method did you use? How old was the dog? How severe was the aggression---can you please elaborate??? YOu could help millions and millions of us, who are out here, trying to find a way to help our dogs!!

    I have gotten Buddy to accept dogs he once hated, one at a time, however, Buddy will not generalize that onto any OTHER dog,
    than that ONE dog i desensitized him to.

    but, you were able, to take a truly dog-aggressive dog, who reacts aggressively to almost all dogs, (many dogs appear upset/aggressive while IN dog pounds, cuz of the stress/fear/etc) but you worked with dogs who were TRULY persistantly dog-aggressive,
    and cured them to accept all dogs??? WOW! PLEEEEEEEEEASE POST HOW YOU DID IT???

    Of all the 100s of humans of dog-aggressive dogs, that i read about, correspond with, belong to boards with, YOU are THE only human* i know of who claims to have cured not just one, but several of DA dogs!! Sara, i'm not kidding, this is HUGE!!!

    caveat, i am currently corresponding iwth someone from one of my dog-aggresion boards, who is telling me, she has almot cured her DA dog, with a shock collar, and i've heard of one other story, of a puppy who aggressive, but cured(<---only scanty info on that 2nd case there)
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    if you want, i can post many many research links, that show, there is a consistant abnormality of dog brains, receptors in dog brains, dopamine levels, and dog serontonin levels,
    in both aggressive dogs,
    and also a reverse correlation in what the researchers called "anxious" dogs (which *might* be what we dog lovers call "the shy dog"??), and links to the alleles that determine our serontonin levels, brain structure, receptor formation in our brains, our neurobiology, our neurochemistry, our dopamine levels, etc etc. We can't 'cause' those abnormalities to occur in our dogs, Sara, you can let yourself off the hook, if you want to..

    The researchers (who post results, not their emotional feelings about a matter, it's just flat out science)
    all do say these disturbed serotonin levels, and numbers of brain receptors, for example, are present "very consistantly" in aggressive and in reverse correlation are also consistantly present in "anxious" dogs. Not a "few".
    this is an inheritable condition, there are alleles that determine one's brain receptors for serontonin,
    this receptor distribution is not caused by humans.

    I thought these might be good, understandable links, cuz, even humans who have zero interest in genetics, or neurobiology and neurochemistry, have at least heard the word "serotonin" <--- as it is often mentioned on tv ads for depression pills.

    Let me know, i have many, many scientific, data-filled, research articles, using different methodologies,
    from all various universities all over the world,
    and many many various geneticists,

    and mulitple veterinary science research teams,

    all showing a constant correlation between dog-aggression AND some ABNORMAL, PHYSICAL inborn factor, (like brains, serontonin levels, dopamine receptors, etc etc)---------- and -------------------aggression in dogs.

    we just can't 'cause' a dog's brain to become built wrong....that is "born-in."

    it's *NOT* like the research team, says, "Well, only 25% of aggressive dogs had alleles for way abnormal serotonin levels" or "Only 5% of aggressive dogs had wayyy undersized, funky looking amygdellas in their brains" or "Only 10% of aggressive dogs had way less receptors in the frontal cortex of their brains"..............the researchers found,
    and again,
    the biological abnormality to be *CONSISTANT* in aggressive dogs.(occurs very very often in most if not all)

    THAT'S where i "get" the idea *most* aggressive dogs ARE born that way.----report, after report, after report, just tons of such reports, from so so so many different widespread sources from all over the USA and all over the world.

    If science said, "Well, only 5% of aggressive dogs have this funky undersized brain part over here.", well, then i'd think only small amount of aggressive dogs DO have an inborn thing,
    science finds the physical, biological abnormalities in aggressive dogs to be VERY VERY CONSISTANT, (occuring MOST of the time, Sara)
    and posts much evidence that such dogs' behavior ("maladaptive aggression" is what they call it)
    is genetically and neurobiologically driven.

    "consistantly"......a word the research teams----------- from all over the world------- use often when describing physical abnormalities in both aggressive and "anxious" dogs (are those "shy" dogs?).........that is why i say "most"----------------------- cuz science does.

  8. sara Moderator

    OK, I'm going to answer to a couple of points, than I'm done with this one.

    I rehabbed 2 rez dogs that were FA towards dogs, I used the term DA loosely, as you are. True DA, as a completely seperate behaviour from FA is rare, infact so rare that I've only met one I could class as DA, with no fear involved, that is the adult dog I talked about. Maybe I live in a strange place with some sort of DA black hole that sucks up all the DA dogs before I can meet them, but I've met plenty of FA dogs.

    FA is tough to rehab, but can be done, as I am working on with Oliver.

    Speaking of Oliver, yes, it is my fault he's FA with strangers and children. I wasn't completely converted to positive methods when I adopted him. He is a jumpy kinda guy, and liked nothing better than jumping up on people, which people hate, so instead of being a good dog owner/trainer, I was very, very bad, and used leash corrections to try to prevent the behaviour... you guessed it, he blamed the people, and he became FA with strangers and children (I wont cop to the kid thing, as he was absolutely petrified of a couple of little girls who ran up shaking stupid toys when I was talking to their mother... I didn't notice his fear, and from that point on, Ollie growled at kids.) Oliver does not forgive what scared him, once scared once by something, he reacts to it for good, until the desensitization begins to work. Oliver is a very complicated dog, but the best dog for me :love:

    I was a tad bit offended by your famous comment, I realize you didn't intend it to be offensive, but it has put me off this thread... besides, it's way more work than my 9-12 hour night shifts and 5 dogs can handle. :sleep::coffee::sleep::coffee::unsure: I really dont have time to go searching all over the internet.

    I will gracefully accept defeat:D, due to time constraints:notworthy:
  9. zoogal Experienced Member

    I totally agree! They can even test for possession in the WOMB! So if your dog is going to be aggressively protecting things it deems valuable, they can actually find that out before the dog even pops out of mom!
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Sara, i'm sorry you were put-off, i'm not kidding, i DO wish you'd post your method of curing a DA dog, whether it is fear-based or not, that fact you CURED one, is just stunning to me. ABsolutely stunning, sorry, my shock and urge to hear more, got the best of me. It's soooooooooooooo rare to hear anyone say they've found a way to cure DA dogs!! I swear, if you wrote a book, "How i cured aggressive dogs" IT'D FLY OFF THE SHELVES------------------there are MILLIONS of us out here, struggling for an answer!!
    YOu would NOT be able to print enough to meet the demand!!

    *THAT'S* what i meant about 'famous'. Well, in the dog world, you'd be famous. AND a best seller!

    And i've agreed, all along, that i also think many DA dogs have a fear component in their reaction.
    (see post #10 on page 1, and that is repeated throughout the thread)

    I don't think all supershy are aggressive, some can be, some aren't, and i hear some of the supershy dogs can be made less aggressive BUT they remain supershy for life. The research refers to "anxious" dogs in their studies, whose serontonin levels and receptors are all askew too,
    and i suspect what researchers call "anxious" are what we call "shy" dogs.

    I know of some shy dogs who are not aggressive. They are shy-for-life, some may call them "fearful" dogs, but not neccessarily aggressive. They'd rather avoid if they get the choice, than fight. I do think supershy-for-life dogs can be curbed from being aggressive, many of them are not aggressive at all, ever, just duck away from all ppl.

    My dog is NOT shy, not at all, but is aggressive.

    To me,
    there is a difference between a SHY dog (who indeed, may become aggressive if ppl get too close/startle him, etc)
    an AGGRESSIVE dog.

    I do not understand the difference it makes if the "maladaptive aggression" is fear based, or not, in whether or not this "maladaptive aggression" is inherited or not. It is still within the realm of what the scientists call "maladaptive" aggression, and it is still "consistently" associated with physical, measurable anomalies in the dog's brain and bloodstream.
    I DO HOPE YOU START A THREAD ON HOW YOU CURED DA DOGS!! FOR REAL, I'M NOT KIDDING, in past 3 years, you are only person i can recall, who has "cured" a DA dog! (except for the 2nd hand story i have on an aggressive puppy who was cured that i know very little about, and the other story, of someone i barely know who claims she has almost cured a dog with a shock collar, i'm not entirley certain if her dog only barked at passing dogs, or what all her dog did)

    SO SARA, WHATEVER METHOD YOU DID USE, TO CURE DA DOGS, I SURE WISH YOU'D SHARE IT, I know, i for one, would most certainly like to try it on Buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEEEEEEEEEEZE???
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Zoogal, i'd love to see this link. I'm not entirely certain that all aggression is based upon 'possession'. Some 'normal' dogs are possessive of various items, and can be reconditioned to be less so.
    Dog-aggression is an entirely different thing, imo, than possessiveness.
    My dog will yell, "Ey, you wanna piece of me!?" when zero possessions are around at all, not his turf, no toys at all, not even me.
    Certainly, his possessions can set off triggers for him, if dogs Buddy is NOT friends with, get by Buddy's toys, he'll get upset. But, dogs he IS pals with, usually can play with his toys.

    but, i'd love to see this link you mention!
  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    And Sara, one simple question,
    that i've posted numerous times,
    do you, Sara, think a border collies herding instinct is inherited, on his DNA, on his genes, etc? "inborn"

    yes or no?
    My point there is, if such a complex behavior as that CAN BE on the dog's gene, why is maladaptive aggression impossible to be on the gene?
  13. zoogal Experienced Member

    you are absolutely right, I didn't mean that all aggression was based upon possession, was simply saying that if some form of aggression has already been scientifically shown to show up in the womb, it is entirely possible that others could be as well, they just haven't studied it yet. Also interesting to note is that the genetic ones are next to impossible to completely get rid may appear that the problem is gone but it is still programmed into the dna, just waiting for a "mistake" in the way things are handled to appear again.
    Sorry, no link, my behaviourist friend found out about the study during a behavioural conference and told me about it. We deal with 100's of aggression cases a year and like Sara says the majority are fear based and not what I call TRUE aggression. What I call true aggression in possesion is when you take an object away from a dog and throw it in the trash and leave the room....then when you come back the dog actually targets YOU (often targeting the throat or gut) because you were the one that took it away. The dog having been fine with you before you took the object away. Also cases like my wolfdog who was OC'd since he was a pup and I can take MOST things away but even though he lets me take them away he STILL growls under his breath about 80% of the time and if it is really valuable I don't even GO THERE! I would like to be able to live to talk about it so I respect his genetics :)
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    interesting post.
    //" may appear that the problem is gone but it is still programmed into the dna, just waiting for a "mistake" in the way things are handled to appear again."//
    Re: the famous reports of "mistakes" that "cause" dog aggression. this is the very very point of my thread. I disagree a dog turns permanently dog-aggressive because of "human errors".
    I'm not buying it, sorry.
    There are 1000s? millions? of dog-aggressive dogs who have been hand raised properly, no mistakes made, still turned out dog aggressive. The dog-aggression boards are chockful of vets, behaviorists, dog trainers, and humans who have all raised up a dog aggressive dog. These dogs, as science has shown, have anomalies in their brains.

    There are 100s and 1000s of dog agressive dogs, raised side by side, in exact same way, alongside 2, 3, or 5 other dogs, allllllll the other dogs that human raised, grew up just fine, only just the one turned out dog aggressive.

    Humans who have raised a lifetime of dogs, all turned out fine, but, one dog turned dog-aggressive, although, the human raised that dog exactly the same way as all his previous dogs.
    I know,
    i know,
    EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVERYONE does believe that aggressive dogs are 'caused' by human mistakes, but, humans can not change the number of serontonin receptors in an aggressive dogs brain,
    humans can not change the size of an aggressive dog's amydella inside of their brain.
    sorry. i just don't buy it. I know, i know, i pretty much stand alone in my views, but, science thinks so too.
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //" What I call true aggression in possesion is when you take an object away from a dog and throw it in the trash and leave the room....then when you come back the dog actually targets YOU (often targeting the throat or gut) because you were the one that took it away"//

    well, my dog is definately aggressive, truly, undeniably aggressive, yet, i can take any toy he has away from him, and he will not bite me or even growl. I can do anything i want to my dog, he accepts it totally. (now).
    Your definition of "true" aggression leaves out a lot of dogs.
    Most dog bites occur on the hands, btw.

    Earlier in this same thread, there was much discussion about dog-aggressive dogs (DA dogs) and people-aggressive dogs (PA dogs). I am uncertain about PA dogs being born in/ or caused, i do need to learn more on that topic.

    i've often said, humans can 'create' an aggressive dog, temporarily.
    If the dog had normal brain, the dog will be easily rehabbed to normal.
    Even Vick could not create a PERMANENTLY aggressive dog.

    If the dog has an inborn aggressive brain, you can line up all the best trainers and behaviorists in the world, and you might get that dog to become better managed, but, he's aggressive for life. Or, if Sara will give up her secret, we'd know more.

    I do think, the supershy dogs (born that way) who are aggressive, (not all shy dogs are aggressive, many prefer to avoid than fight)
    can have their aggression reduced, science even shows the shy dogs have an entirely OPPOSITE level of serontonins than the aggressive dogs. But, they'll be shy for life, can't change their brains.

    This does bring up a good point, though, what IS a truly aggressive dog? I think it is when the aggression they display is consistantly over-the-top, excessive, and is inappropriate to the situation. To me, the cause, whether it is because they are possessive, or afraid, or whatever, doesn't matter to me, they are still aggressive dogs. Aggressive dogs consistently have physical anomalies that show up in the neurochemistry and neurobiology.

    I just wrote that, it might need tweaking, ha ha. Aggression can include growling and posturing, many aggressive dogs have never bitten anyone or any dog.
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    i just thought of something.
    Even if we set aside all the research that shows aggressive dogs consistantly display physical differences in their neurochemistry and neurobiology from normal dogs------------if you say you caused your dog's fear of ppl by 'correcting' and 'yanking' on your dog's collar to prevent him jumping up on ppl caused his to be permanently, irrevocably damaged for life-----------------
    WHAT ABOUT allllllllllll the bazillions of other dogs who experienced that same thing, but love all ppl?

    I would guess, many ppl do this same thing, and seems like most 1st time dog owners allllllllllll do that in their attempts to prevent their dogs from jumping up on ppl. Many lifelong dog owners still do this to 'teach' a dog to not jump up.
    but all those millions of dogs did NOT turn out dog-aggressive, or ppl-aggressive.

    to say nothing of dogs, like my own, who were actually BEATEN, definate undeniable abuse, yet, don't fear ppl.

    There are TONS of stories,
    all over, from all around,
    of totally abused puppies and dogs,
    who love everyone.

    there is *something else* going on.

  17. zoogal Experienced Member

    Sorry I think there has been some sort of misunderstanding. I never intended to say that the mistakes "caused" the aggression, it was always there in the first place. What I am saying is that through a lot of really good training you can hide true aggression, you just can't get rid of it for good.

    Also I think you are mistaking me on what I mean on some things and maybe I you (sigh, one of the many reasons I normally don't post). I didn't mean to say that possession was the only type of aggression at ALL. There are MANY forms of aggression and it would take FOREVER to discuss them all...really this is getting to be too time restrictive to keep having to post back and try to explain what I meant. Let us just say that I was talking only about possession, that it can be a form of aggression and what I am referring to when I talk about TRUE possession aggression

    I have yet to see a true possesive aggressive dog that was ONLY possessive towards dogs and not humans. I have seen MANY possesive dogs that are extreemly possessive towards dogs and not humans but not what I would call true possession aggression as all the TRUE ones were possessive to both dogs and humans, there was no difference. Since if they were only possessive towards dogs then it is a "choice" they are obviously making of "whom" they choose to be possessive over, whether it be a pack mate or human but TRUE possesion aggression doesn't discriminate who. It can't. That would be a genetics thing. Either they have the desire to protect that object no matter what...or they don't. If they can choose, then it isn't true, it is more of a personality thing then, where they respect humans but don't respect dogs when it comes to their stuff...

    Feel free to comment but I most likely won't have time to respond back (sorry) :( but would love to hear your thoughts on it anyways...
  18. zoogal Experienced Member

    oh, I should also add that this does not include DA then they are aggressive to dogs in all situations but I wasn't referring to those.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  19. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //" What I am saying is that through a lot of really good training you can hide true aggression,"//

    It's actually harder than you'd imagine to "hide" a dog's aggression, at least it is for most of the humans i know or interact with online, we all mostly only can "manage" the dog, and many of us just only BARELY manage our aggressive dogs..........and dispite our best efforts, there will still be moments our dog does react.

    There are millions of us out here struggling with that very issue. LIterally millions. Aggression is the #1 reason dogs are put to death in the USA, more than cancer, more than terminal illness, more than car accidents, more than all other reasons put together................ it is THAT difficult to manage it.

    I readily admit, i am completely baffled what you mean about possession-aggression. Most of the DA dogs i know of, hear about, etc, loathe other dogs, on sight,
    there is no possession needed to trigger this instant, overwhelming revulsion to the mere sight of another dog, even 500 feet away.
    that is a typical description of a dog-aggressive dog.

    Have you ever lived with a dog-aggressive dog?
  20. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"oh, I should also add that this does not include DA then they are aggressive to dogs in all situations but I wasn't referring to those. "//

    oh, this thread *IS* about aggressive dogs.
    Many normal dogs will be possessive of their toys.
    that is not what i'm talking about. We're discussing aggressive dogs on this here thread.

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