Increasing Drive

Discussion in 'Advanced Dog Training' started by Pawbla, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. running_dog Honored Member

    Myraellen, to get Lotta to pay attention to you although the toy is there you are going to have to add distance between Lotta and the toy and control her access to the toy during the training session.

    The easiest way for you to do this is probably for you to START training outside.

    Take Lotta (on her lead), your clicker, treats and a toy. Find a fairly quiet space to work outside.
    Put the toy on the ground and walk away to a distance where Lotta starts to lose interest in it.
    Click and treat Lotta whenever:
    • she stops pulling towards the toy
    • she stops gazing at the toy
    • she looks at you
    • she looks at the toy and looks away
    • she does any simple command you give her (eg/sit, down, spin)
    If you can't click and treat her at least 6-10 times in a minute you are too close to the toy. Move a little further away.
    When she is ignoring the toy at this distance take a step closer to the toy and start again clicking and treating the same things as before, when she is successful most of the time again take another step closer. If she starts to focus too much on the toy take a step away from it again.
    As Lotta gets better at this you can keep getting closer and closer until you are standing on the toy as Lotta is working with you. Also to make it more difficult for Lotta you can:
    • walk back and forth past the toy
    • hold the toy
    • throw the toy
    • you can add more toys
    • add better toys
    That is stage 1 of training Lotta to work around toy distractions.
    kassidybc likes this.

  2. myraellen Well-Known Member

    My friend could not pick up the toys because Lotta would get even more excited about them. Although what you are telling here works with Piper, it wouldn't work with Lotta. My friend has heard/read that this is what usually happens with small children and would probably happen with Lotta:
    If a child doesn't do what you are asking him/her to do and goes to do something else instead, and you let him/her to go s/he learns s/he doesn't need to do what you ask. The s/he gets what s/he wants. So, that would probably happen also with Lotta. :ROFLMAO: So, shouldn't my friend be the one that decides when to start and end the training session?

    Lotta behaves the same way also after my friend has taken her out or she has been playing with her toys.

    You are probably implying that my friend wouldn't reward Lotta often enough? Lotta doesn't always run away in training but when she does she does it even when my friend has gotten her to do something several times like in the video we linked. The lenght of the training session doesn't affect in it.

    My friend could train Lotta outside only if she had own yard. It's because there are too many other kind of distractions there. Lotta sees other dogs and people there. Since Lotta likes people so much she would like to go to everyone. :) Lotta may also see birds outside and when she does, she may sometimes run after them. There are also a lot of smells there. Maybe my friend could do what you are suggesting here inside and in the room where there is room to train Lotta. Maybe Lotta would learn to work near the toys if my friend kept her on leash for now on? O_o

  3. running_dog Honored Member

    What Southerngirl is saying is that when Piper starts to get over excited she asks for one more easy trick that Piper will do. Then she ends the session.

    So Southerngirl ends the session while she is still in control and when Piper has done a command well.

    This is not the same as ending the session when she has lost control and not the same as ending the session when Piper chooses.

    Southerngirl is watching her dog's behaviour and choosing to end the session before training becomes too difficult for Piper. That's a really good dog training technique.

    I don't think keeping her on leash in the house will work because you are relying on the leash to control her not teaching her to control herself.

    You have to have enough distance so that the leash is not important to the training.
    myraellen, kassidybc and southerngirl like this.
  4. myraellen Well-Known Member


    Southerngirl already has that control and that works with Piper because she already knows how to work with her owner. Piper understand that if she runs away in the middle of the training session to do what she wants, she loses the opportunity to learn something. In another thread southerngirl had told that she had gotten Piper to learn some things almost immeadeately when she was only about six months old (either someone has already teached them to her or she is fast in learning). My friend has read that Piper is partly a Pit Bull. She has recently watched videos of Pit Bulls. In those videos they show also shortly when they are trainining them. In them they get even those dogs, that haven't been trained much, to learn things fast. Those dogs don't wander off in the middle of the training sessions to do something else either.


    Although what you are telling here works with Piper, it wouldn't work with Lotta because of this: if Lotta runs away in the middle of the training session to play with her toys and my friend would ask her to do something only once it would only interrupt the playing. Then this would still happen:



    That would happen because Lotta doesn't notice or understand that my friend is trying to teach her something. She is not very smart either. It's not always easy to teach Lotta things although my friend could get her to do something. In order to gain that control Southerngirl has, my friend would need to continue the training and get Lotta to do things many times. So, the questions still is: How does my friend get Lotta to come back if she starts to play with her toys?



    My friend thought that she could keep Lotta on leash so that she couldn't run away at the first place. Shouldn't my friend teach Lotta to work with her before she could keep her off leash? We told that my friend couldn't train Lotta outside but if she could, shouldn't she keep her on leash also then? So, these are the reasons my friend cannot train her outside:



    So, my friend would need to teach Lotta to work near toys first inside. She could not pick up the toys because Lotta would get even more excited about them. Since my friend cannot trust that Lotta could work off leash yet, couldn't she do what you suggested earlier when Lotta would be on leash?:


  5. running_dog Honored Member

    You can try but it is not the best way to train a dog to pay attention during training. In the next paragraph I am explaining why what you suggest is not the same as what I suggested, I know you have said you can't work outside but you need to know the problem you will have when you try the same thing inside.

    If you have a lot of space the dog is not very interested in the toy because there is a lot of distance so the lead does not become significant in training. If you don't have so much space the dog is more likely to run for the toy and be restrained by the lead and that is a problem. You want Lotta to control herself not be controlled by the lead.

    If you are working inside it is better to pick all the toys up and control the dog's access to them while you are training. It is not impossible to do. Perhaps you could play "It's yer choice" with a toy so Lotta learns how to control her excitement near toys?
    kassidybc likes this.
  6. myraellen Well-Known Member

    Lotta often follows my friend and she is often in the same room than my friend. If Lotta noticed that my friend would start gathering toys she would get even more excited about them and would try to take them from my friend's hands. In case someone suggests it, no one else can pick up those toys when my friend is somewhere with Lotta where she can't see them since she lives alone (with Lotta of course :ROFLMAO::love:).

    My friend has tried "It's Yer Choice" with treats. She should probably teach that with them before she would try it with toys?

    My friend thought that she would use a leash only to prevent Lotta from running away. She wouldn't necessarily need to tie that leash to anything.

    So, are there some other ways to teach a dog to work for her/his owner?
  7. running_dog Honored Member

    I don't see how that is a problem. Your friend just needs to put a big box on the table and pick up the toys and drop them in. No matter how excited Lotta gets she can't get the toys back. When all the toys are collected you wait for Lotta to calm down and then start training.

    You can train "It's yer choice" with toys before you train it with treats. It is entirely up to you.

    Preventing Lotta from running away by using the leash IS controlling her using the leash. You need to teach her to control herself.

    I think that in this and your other thread we have covered the main methods in some detail.

    To go back to your previous message, Southerngirl's Piper is not a specially clever dog, all dogs can learn many things before they are 6 months old if they have a trainer like Southerngirl. She uses a very rapid rate of reinforcement and short training sessions where she releases the dog before it gets distracted, over time this builds attention and focus.

    In contrast you are mixing two schools of thought , dominance and friendship:

    You are putting yourself in conflict with the dog because you are determined to decide on how long training sessions will be (dominance) but you won't use time outs or remove the distractions to enforce control.

    So it seems you want friendship with your dog but you don't accept that to build a training relationship like that you need to make things easier for the dog by giving a really high rate of reward and letting the dog have some control over the length of the sessions (friendship training system).

    At this stage with your mixed training philosophies I think your only hope is that "It's yer choice" will work.
  8. myraellen Well-Known Member

    We have told that what my friend can/could do and what she can't/couldn't do and what kind of limitations she has: We have told that my friend lives in a small apartment where there isn't an extra room and that she doesn't have own yard. If we lived in a perfect world, my friend would have a big house where she would have an extra room where to train Lotta and she would have own yard.:ROFLMAO: However, we don't live in a perfect world. O_o

    If Lotta noticed that my friend would start gathering the toys she would get even more excited about them and would try to take them from my friend's hands. Although my friend would manage to pick the toys up Lotta would get frustrated about it. Then she wouldn't be in suitable mood for training. Besides, how would hiding the toys help with training the dog to work near and for them?

    You suggested that my friend would seek to dominate Lotta if she makes decisions for her. However, my friend doesn't think that it relates to what dominance really is. We had just written about it in another thread.
    My friend would rather discuss about dominance in that thread.


    You might have understood or interpreted our comment in a different way than my friend has meant it to be. O_o We had just written about that in another thread (My Friend And Asperger's).

    In our comment my friend tried to explain that the breed affects on how well one can teach things to the dog. She just found an article about it:
    http://www.dogtrainingsingapore.org/are-all-breeds-trainable/

    Some breeds just naturally know how to work with their owners whereas others are more independent. Then things should be done differently with them. My friend was also trying to explain that Lotta and Piper view same things differently. So they should be trained in different ways.






    Then Lotta would think that she would get what she wants.

    Maybe you can ask if you are not sure what my friend means. :)
  9. southerngirl Honored Member

    I feel like you haven't tried any of the suggestions given to you. Even if you feel like they may not work you should at least try them.
    Such as I suggested you tire Lotta out before training and it may help her focus on you.
    kassidybc likes this.
  10. running_dog Honored Member


    I don't think that breed affect how a dog should be trained nearly as much as the attitude of the owner. The more the owner hides behind a breed label the less a dog will learn.

    I don't have what is thought of as an "easy" breed. My dog is bred to hunt independently, he is not bred for focus and close control but because I keep an open mind and try out suggestions I have learned to train him better and better and he is now more focussed on me than a lot of border collies.

    American bulldogs and pitbull terriers (similar type to Piper) are not bred for focus and close control either. If Piper was a border collie you *might* be able to hold that point of view. As it is Lotta's breed has a reputation for being easy to train and for being very focussed on their owners because they like food, and in this link the Cavaliers are listed as easy to train and Pit bulls are listed as hard to train. I really think you need to accept that Southerngirl is able to train Piper because Southerngirl is a very good trainer. It would be a good idea for you to take her advice.

    Dogs wander off in training because you are not keeping their attention. You need to train for less time and/or increase the rate/value of rewards. It is as simple as that. If this works for stopping my dog from chasing squirrels during training sessions then it will work to stop your dog running after toys during training sessions.
    kassidybc and southerngirl like this.
  11. myraellen Well-Known Member

    What we wrote about breeds is based on what my friend knows and what she has read/heard. She has read that some breeds are easier to train than others. When my friend has seen dogs on TV and in videos that are easy to train, they have often been border collies, german shepherds etc. It seems to my friend that those breeds just naturally know how to work with their owners. She hasn't seen Cavalier's for example in tutorials. Those Cavalier's she has seen in videos, do silly things like Lotta does. Although you are saying that they are easy to train, Lotta is more similar to those breeds that are more independent. Things should be done differently with them.
    So, we have told that Lotta gets excited when she notices that my friend is going to start training her. Lotta behaves the same way also after my friend has taken her out or she has been playing with her toys alone or with my friend. So, doing something else first doesn't get Lotta to calm down for training.
    Of course my friend could try what you have suggested. The question is how could she apply them since we have told what my friend can/could do and what she can't/couldn't do and what kind of limitations she has:
    "We have told that my friend lives in a small apartment where there isn't an extra room and that she doesn't have own yard."
    "If Lotta noticed that my friend would start gathering the toys she would get even more excited about them and would try to take them from my friend's hands. Although my friend would manage to pick the toys up Lotta would get frustrated about it. Then she wouldn't be in suitable mood for training."
    Lotta doesn't always run away in training but when she does she does it even when my friend has gotten her to do something several times and has rewarded her many times like in our video we had linked. The lenght of the training session doesn't affect in it.

    So how could my friend teach Lotta to do same things as those dogs do in that video?
    My friend knows that one of the reasons those dogs can do those things is that they have good impulse control. Does someone know what else that trainer might have done so that he had gotten them to work with him?
    So, you had suggested It's yer choice. How could my friend teach it and those things you had told here since Lotta doesn't know how to take and drop on cue yet? How could my friend prevent Lotta from stealing the toy then?:
    You had also suggested to use LAT. How could my friend do it with toys? It's also so that all of those things would be easier to do with animals because they are fast enough to run away. So, it's not so clear to my friend how to do them with toys.
  12. running_dog Honored Member

    I don't have time right now to reply to all you have said, all being well I will reply properly over the next couple of days and hopefully we will figure out a way that you are prepared to use with Lotta.
  13. southerngirl Honored Member

    Myraellen I don't mean to be rude, but you have to stop making excuses to why what we are suggesting won't work with Lotta. You keep saying Lotta is so hard to train and our dogs are not.
    Piper is Not easy to train at all. She gets excited very easily which makes it hard to train. She tries doing things in super speed to get a reward whether it's food or a toy, but I use patience and try different training techniques. That is why I'm able to train her.
    And my other dog Missy is overly sensitive. If she messes up or if I get the tiniest bit frustrated she shuts down. So No my dogs are Not easy to train.
    I've learned how to train them by listening to them(the dogs) and others suggestions. It's the same with R_dog there is nothing easy about teaching a dog like Zac to no chase a squirrel.
    running_dog and kassidybc like this.
  14. southerngirl Honored Member

  15. running_dog Honored Member

    Great selection of videos there Southerngirl, I couldn't resist adding this one that I found...
    kassidybc and southerngirl like this.
  16. myraellen Well-Known Member

    It's rather so that my friend hasn't been able to try what you have suggested because Lotta doesn't have some skills that would be needed for it. We have also asked some questions about those suggestions. See the latest in the previous message. She has noticed that Kassidybc has written about things in another thread what you should take into concideration. The reason my friend wanted to comment them in that thread is that she finds it easier to comment messages including ours by quoting them. My friend would discuss about her dog's training rather in this thread.

    We have also told what kind of limitations my friend has.

    My friend doesn't know much about Zac but what she has commented about Piper and other pit bulls is based on what she has seen in videos. My friend had seen also couple of threads about Piper. What my friend had seen in a trick video about her made her look so smart compared to Lotta. My friend didn't know that Piper would be hard to train because you had managed to teach her things. My friend couldn't see it in that video. She was only 9 months old in it.

    When my friend told that she hasn't seen Cavalier's in tutorials, she meant actual tutorials for example from Kikopup where they tell and show how to teach things. Cavalier's naturally know how to look at their owners. In those Cavaliers who are in those videos you had linked that skill has progressed so that they know how to work with their owners.

    The reasons it's hard for my friend to train Lotta are:
    1) Lotta doesn't know how to work with my friend although she already knows how to look at her. That's why it may be difficult to teach her things although my friend often gets her to do something.
    2) Lotta doesn't know how to offer things (not only behaviors) in training so that she could get rewards.
    3) My friend doesn't always know how to apply instructions. We have written about it also in another thread (Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Lotta).
    4) Lotta doesn't know how to distinguish play times and training sessions from each other. That's why she just acts silly and doesn't always do what she should be doing.

    So, my friend would still need advice with Lotta's training. My friend could try what you would suggest as long as you would take into concideration the things we have told about.
  17. running_dog Honored Member

    Hi Myraellen, I think all the people who have been trying to help you have had to work through difficult things with their dogs. I have to say that your comment about it being easier to teach a dog not to chase animals than to go after toys made me laugh.

    If you look at my signature strip and my avatar you can see what shape Zac is. Do you know what dogs this shape are bred for? When I want to train Zac to do LAT with prey such as deer, hares, rabbits and squirrels I can't just get one out of the cupboard, I have to walk a couple of miles to a place where I think they might be and hope they will be there. I've attached a photo that shows what distance I have to be from deer before Zac does not find them distracting. That is when they are standing still. If they start running Zac will still find them distracting.

    IMG_7775.jpg

    Can't see the deer? Here is a zoomed version, you can just see the white rumps of three deer.
    IMG_7772.JPG
    I'm sure that you don't have to be that far from toys before Lotta doesn't find them distracting.

    I know you are not planning on using distance in training Lotta to leave toys alone. I am using distance here just as a kind of measure to explain exactly how distracting my dog finds animals.

    We know that you don't know our dogs. What we don't like is that you ASSUME that if our dogs behave well it is because they were born that way! Our dogs behave well because we train them. We train them using short very rewarding training sessions, we stop before we become boring to the dogs. We have already told you this many many times. But you won't listen. You want us to tell you how to go on training when your dog is bored of you.

    The way to keep the dog wanting to train for a long time is to stop training when it is still keen, before it starts to find other things more interesting. Then it will always want to train more. Over time you can make the training sessions longer because the dog always wants more than you are offering. So stopping training while your dog is still keen is part of training it to be able to cope with longer training sessions.
    kassidybc likes this.
  18. running_dog Honored Member

    Some time ago you asked how picking all the toys up helped teach Lotta to ignore toys. Here is how and also how to deal with Lotta getting over excited when you pick up the toys. I have made the instructions as clear as I can and have taken into account the things you have said such as about Lotta getting excited when you pick up the toys.

    1) Pick up all the toys and put them away in a cardboard box before you start a training session. If Lotta is too excited because you have done that just sit down and read a book until she calms down. When she is calm train with her as usual. Wait a little while after the session has finished and then say "get it, lets get your toys", "get it" will become your cue for Lotta to play with her toys. Lift the box off the table and tip the toys all over the floor.

    2) Next time you train pick all the toys up again and this time leave a toy in sight but inaccessible (maybe on a table), Read a book until Lotta calms down, then just train as if the toy isn't there, start with a toy she is not very keen on. Repeat as before with the box of toys after you finish training.

    3) Next time you train pick all the toys up again and this time leave two toys in sight but inaccessible (maybe on a table), Read a book until Lotta calms down. Now train Lotta with two toys in sight but inaccessible. Over time you can get toys out that Lotta likes a lot. Leave them in sight but inaccessible. You can maybe start using a see through plastic box so Lotta can see all the toys. As before to return the toys to the floor.

    4) Then when Lotta can cope with the toys on the table put the toy closer to the floor but still inaccessible and train Lotta. Start with a toy she doesn't like very much and then work up to one she loves. As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.

    5) Then maybe while you are training you take a step closer to the toy and then move away but just go on training like nothing happened. Again start with a toy she doesn't like and work up to one she loves. As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.

    6) Then maybe after a while you can pick up the toy and put it back down while you are training. Keep doing this until Lotta realises that you picking up the toy does not mean anything if you are training. As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.

    7) Then maybe you can hold the toy while you are training. Hold the toy still. Do not let Lotta touch the toy. If she dives for it put the toy back on the table out of reach and work back through 4) 5) 6) and 7). You won't be able to use a clicker for training because you can't hold the toy and a clicker and the treats. As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.

    8) Then maybe you can hold the toy in your hand but move it around a bit while you are training. Do not let Lotta touch the toy. If she dives for it put the toy back on the table out of reach and work back through 4) 5) 6) and 7). As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.

    9) Now you can start putting the toy near the floor while you are training. Put it down and pick it up. Move it around. Still don't let Lotta touch the toy. If she dives for it put the toy back on the table out of reach and work back through 4) 5) 6) 7) and 8). As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.

    10) Once Lotta can do this you can start putting the toy on the floor near you, make sure you start this with a toy Lotta doesn't like much, keep the training session really short and use rewards Lotta really likes. At the end of the session pick the toy up and put it back in the box. As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session.
    If she dives for the toy make sure you can get the toy before her put it back on the table and work back through 4) 5) 6) 7) 8) and 9). If Lotta does get the toy don't try to get it back, walk out of the room and close the door with Lotta on the other side of the door to you (if Lotta runs through the door ahead of you just close the door with her outside). Leave her there for 20 seconds. When you go back in don't make a big fuss of her, read a book until she has calmed down. When she has forgotten about the toy pick it up and put it on the table. Start working 4) to 9) again.

    11) You can also start putting the see through plastic box of toys nearer the floor too. Make sure the top is sealed so Lotta can't get a toy out by herself. If she runs over to the box during a training session just lift it up and put it back on the table. As before pick up the toys before the session and return the toys to the floor after the session. When you are playing with Lotta you can say "get it" when you want her to grab a toy.

    12) Increase the number of toys you have on the floor. Tidy them all away into the plastic box if Lotta becomes distracted by them. If she is running around with one in her mouth walk out of the room and close the door with Lotta on the other side of the door to you (if Lotta runs through the door ahead of you just close the door with her outside). Leave her there for 20 seconds. When you go back in don't make a big fuss of her, read a book until she has calmed down. When she has forgotten about the toy pick it up and put it on the table. Start working 4) to 11) again. Over time this will teach Lotta that even if she can see toys around her while she is being trained she can't get them so she will ignore them.
    kassidybc likes this.
  19. running_dog Honored Member

    The instructions I gave you in my previous reply use a form of "It's yer choice"

    For a more exact use of it with toys:

    1) Start with a few balls that you can fully protect with your hand so she can't get them, put all of them in a box on the table next to where you are going to be training. Hold your clicker in one hand and one of the balls in the other.

    2) Put the ball on the floor covered with your hand so Lotta can't get it. Let Lotta try to get the ball, but don't let her have it. Just keep your hand really still covering the ball. If you don't like the feel of this or Lotta is hurting you you might need to wear gloves.

    3) Eventually Lotta will give up pawing and nibbling and licking at your hand, instantly click the clicker, then say "get it" and roll the ball across the floor.

    4) While Lotta is chasing the first ball get another one out and put it on the floor covered with your hand. Ignore Lotta but roll the ball around under you hand until she starts to be interested in it, then let her paw at it as before. When she stops, click, say "get it" and roll the ball across the floor.

    5) Keep repeating this until she understands that waiting quietly is what gets the ball to roll across the floor, she should run over when she wants to play but wait without touching your hand. You are also teaching her to "get it" on cue. You don't need a "drop it" cue for this because all the balls are the same, it is you who is making them interesting so if you make the ball under your hand interesting Lotta will drop the one she is carrying.

    6) Start to uncover the ball sometimes, If Lotta moves towards it cover it up again quickly so she can't get it. Only when she is waiting quietly do you roll the ball for her. Start to roll the ball around under your hand, if she dives for it make the ball still under your hand and wait for her to back off and wait quietly then reward her. Eventually you will be able to leave the ball uncovered on the floor until you say "get it" and then Lotta will dive for it.

    7) Repeat with other kinds of toys. If you kneel on a toy like a frisbee is harder for a dog to get a grip on it. With a tug toy you just have to hold it really still so it is boring to tug on it.
    kassidybc and southerngirl like this.
  20. myraellen Well-Known Member

    My friend doesn't know much about Zac but when we commented about Piper she didn't mean that it would be easy to train her. My friend hadn't been able to explain it properly but what she really meant was that Piper is different than Lotta. What my friend was also trying to say was that what southerngirl is doing works with Piper but not with Lotta because they're different from each other. We had just put some questions about Piper in another thread.

    We should have mention about this earlier but if/when Lotta wanders off in the middle of training session, she does it sometimes when my friend has barely started to train her.

    My friend meant that if the dog chases for example birds s/he can't catch them but s/he can catch toys.

    If my friend tried to train Lotta outside, she would see people there. There would also be too much other kind of distractions there. If my friend had own yard Lotta wouldn't be able to see those people...

    My friend is not sure how she could do even the first thing in the list because this is how Lotta reacts:
    [IMG]

    So, my friend doesn't understand how could it work. Do you know what she could do? She was also showing how Lotta reacts if my friend ignores her. In case someone suggests it, this is how Lotta reacts if my friend tries to give her a treat:

    [IMG]

    So, as you can see, she was taking a toy before she had barely aten the treat.

Share This Page

 
 
 
Real Time Analytics