Increasing Drive

[southerngirl]

Answered your question in the other thread that you asked.
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/forum/threads/piper-american-bulldog.6809/

 

[running_dog]

My friend meant that if the dog chases for example birds s/he can't catch them but s/he can catch toys.

I know what your friend meant. It's just not true for many many dogs, including mine. A lot of dogs do chase and catch birds. My dog if given the opportunity would chase and catch rabbits and squirrels. Compared to toy distractions it is NOT easier to teach a hunting dog not to chase prey.

My friend is not sure how she could do even the first thing in the list because this is how Lotta reacts:

So, my friend doesn't understand how could it work. Do you know what she could do? She was also showing how Lotta reacts if my friend ignores her. In case someone suggests it, this is how Lotta reacts if my friend tries to give her a treat:

I said:
"1) Pick up all the toys and put them away in a cardboard box before you start a training session."

Where is your box? Put the box up a height above Lotta's reach. Then pick up a toy. As soon as you pick a toy up lift it above Lotta's jumping height, keep holding it up high walk over to the box and put it in the box. If Lotta grabs the toy just hold on to it until she lets go and then put the toy in the box. Then pick up the next toy. Then follow the rest of my instructions.

Lotta is behaving perfectly normally for an ignored dog. Why don't you face the wall while standing close to the sideboard? Then she can't come round in front of you and look at you until you are ready for her.

So, as you can see, she was taking a toy before she had barely aten the treat.

Lotta is good, she will eat a treat even when there is a toy there. You just need to explain to her what you want. To do that you need to click the clicker earlier - as she looks away from the toy not when she is eating the treat. The behaviour you need to capture is her looking away from the toy.

 

[running_dog]

We should have mention about this earlier but if/when Lotta wanders off in the middle of training session, she does it sometimes when my friend has barely started to train her.

You need to be more interesting or remove the distractions.

 

[running_dog]

What about my second set of instructions for "it's yer choice" with toys?

 

[myraellen]

First of all, what you have suggested to do is not as simple with Lotta as you make it look.

I said:
"1) Pick up all the toys and put them away in a cardboard box before you start a training session."

Where is your box? Put the box up a height above Lotta's reach. Then pick up a toy. As soon as you pick a toy up lift it above Lotta's jumping height, keep holding it up high walk over to the box and put it in the box. If Lotta grabs the toy just hold on to it until she lets go and then put the toy in the box. Then pick up the next toy. Then follow the rest of my instructions.

That is what my friend was trying to do in the first video we linked although she was not using a box then. In it my friend was only pretending she was going to start training Lotta although she could have been starting to train her as well. At some point my friend took a clicker on her hand in order to get Lotta to think she was going to start training her so that she could show you how does Lotta behave if my friend did what you had suggested. As you can see Lotta gets more excited about toys if my friend started picking them up because Lotta thinks she is going to start playing with those toys with her. So, that gets her to behave by opposite ways than my friend would want her to. So we have told you that Lotta often follows my friend and she is often in the same room than my friend is. It's also so that Lotta may already be in the room where there's room to train her.

There aren't really places in my friend's appartment where she could stand so that Lotta couldn't go in front of her. It's because she is so small. Ignoring doesn't really work with Lotta because she often stares at my friend. Actually it seems to my friend that Lotta thinks it's a game if my friend turned around. Then she gets more excited about it. Ignoring Lotta doesn't teach her to calm down for training. As you can see the things you have suggested to do gets Lotta to behave by opposite ways than she should.

Lotta is behaving perfectly normally for an ignored dog. Why don't you face the wall while standing close to the sideboard? Then she can't come round in front of you and look at you until you are ready for her.

Lotta is good, she will eat a treat even when there is a toy there. You just need to explain to her what you want. To do that you need to click the clicker earlier - as she looks away from the toy not when she is eating the treat. The behaviour you need to capture is her looking away from the toy.

My friend asked me to make that other video because she thought that you might suggest her to throw a treat to Lotta in order to ger her to let go off the toy. In that video my friend wasn't training Lotta she just did it more than once in order to show you what Lotta does if my friend tried trading the toy for a treat.

What my friend is trying to explain here is that Lotta gets more excited about toys if my friend tried picking them up. Although you probably don't think so, my friend thinks that she should rather let the toys be wherever they are and ask Lotta to do some things and behaviors although those toys are there. So, the original question was:
you take one toy and you put it somewhere where the dog can't get it. The question is how do you get/teach the dog to look at you although the toy is there? My friend would like to know that should she do that first or should she do this before it:

For (1) You could try using the "look at that" training technique, I have used it since reading about it in Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. Basically when using "look at that" you reward the dog for calmly looking at the thing he finds distracting. You can reward very quickly so the dog wants to stay with you rather than go to the distraction. This is a video of Zac doing "look at that" with a passing dog.

You also asked what my friend thinks about It's yer choice. She can answer the next time.

 

[running_dog]

First of all, what you have suggested to do is not as simple with Lotta as you make it look.

Myraellen, if you tried to do EXACTLY what I told you you would find it IS simple. I don't see anything particularly difficult about Lotta in ANY of the videos you have posted anywhere on DTA. I have worked and do work with MUCH MORE DIFFICULT dogs than Lotta.

You keep telling me that LOTTA doesn't listen but what I find is that YOU don't listen.

I have replied to you time and time and time again and you DON'T listen. I feel you only read my replies in order to argue with me, not to learn. I'm sorry but I don't have any more time to waste discussing this topic with you unless you PROVE you are SERIOUS about listening to advice.

PROVE it to me by trying EXACTLY what I suggested and this time use a BOX to put the toys in as soon as you pick them up and when Lotta gets excited READ A BOOK until Lotta calms down. I told you to do those things because they are important and you IGNORED them because you DON'T LISTEN.

You CANNOT prove to me the method does not work with Lotta if you MISS OUT HALF THE METHOD. So try the method PROPERLY and with an OPEN MIND or I won't be replying to you on this topic again.

 

[myraellen]

My friend is not sure about it but you may have misunderstood what she has told you. It's rather so that some of the things you have suggested work differently with Lotta than they are meant to. She could do everything you have suggested if it worked with Lotta the way it should.

Myraellen, if you tried to do EXACTLY what I told you you would find it IS simple. I don't see anything particularly difficult about Lotta in ANY of the videos you have posted anywhere on DTA. I have worked and do work with MUCH MORE DIFFICULT dogs than Lotta.

You keep telling me that LOTTA doesn't listen but what I find is that YOU don't listen.

I have replied to you time and time and time again and you DON'T listen. I feel you only read my replies in order to argue with me, not to learn. I'm sorry but I don't have any more time to waste discussing this topic with you unless you PROVE you are SERIOUS about listening to advice.

PROVE it to me by trying EXACTLY what I suggested and this time use a BOX to put the toys in as soon as you pick them up and when Lotta gets excited READ A BOOK until Lotta calms down. I told you to do those things because they are important and you IGNORED them because you DON'T LISTEN.

You CANNOT prove to me the method does not work with Lotta if you MISS OUT HALF THE METHOD. So try the method PROPERLY and with an OPEN MIND or I won't be replying to you on this topic again.

My friend doesn't believe that it would make any difference if she used a box. The first thing in putting toys in a box is picking them up.

That is what my friend was trying to do in the first video we linked although she was not using a box then.......//........ As you can see Lotta gets more excited about toys if my friend started picking them up because Lotta thinks she is going to start playing with those toys with her.

So, that gets her to behave by opposite ways than my friend would want her to.

Picking the toys up doesn't get Lotta to calm down for training. It's also so that if my friend goes to do something else and then goes back and tries to continue the training Lotta behaves the same way. What my friend has tried to explain is that some of the things suggested gets Lotta to behave in different ways than they should. It's because of this: many dogs understand that if they do X and what happens because of that is something they don't like about, they should do Y instead whereas Lotta doesn't understand that. What my friend is trying to explain here is that some individuals like Lotta don't understand some things the same way as other dogs do. So things should be done differently with them.

Although you probably don't think so, my friend thinks that she should rather let the toys be wherever they are and ask Lotta to do some things and behaviors although those toys are there. So, the original question was:
you take one toy and you put it somewhere where the dog can't get it. The question is how do you get/teach the dog to look at you although the toy is there? My friend would like to know that should she do that first or should she do this before it:

You had suggested LAT. So this is what we had tried to ask about:

Stage 1: My friend is already in the stage 1, since Lotta is naturally the kind of dog that often looks at his/her owner.

Stage 2: In the following tutorial Pamela Johnson says that she started training inside the house but not how she started training. How should it be started?

Stage 3:

 

[kassidybc]

Have you tried EXACTLY what R_Dog suggested? I know you think that it won't work with Lotta but I think if you do EXACTLY what R_Dog suggested, it will work. Instead of complaining that none of this will work with Lotta, TRY IT. If you do exactly what R_Dog suggested, you do all of the steps (and maybe you could even video it so we could help you better) and it still doesn't work (which I doubt will happen) then we will help you. Until then, I don't think any of us will be responding to this thread any longer.

 

[myraellen]

My friend was not complaining. She was just explaining something about Lotta's behavior and individual differences in that previous comment.

This is not only about what my friend is willing to do, this is also about how Lotta behaves. Of course my friend would be willing to do all of the things you have suggested and:

She could do everything you have suggested if it worked with Lotta the way it should....../

/......Picking the toys up doesn't get Lotta to calm down for training. It's also so that if my friend goes to do something else and then goes back and tries to continue the training Lotta behaves the same way. What my friend has tried to explain is that some of the things suggested gets Lotta to behave in different ways than they should. It's because of this: many dogs understand that if they do X and what happens because of that is something they don't like about, they should do Y instead whereas Lotta doesn't understand that. What my friend is trying to explain here is that some individuals like Lotta don't understand some things the
same way as other dogs do. So things should be done differently with them.

What my friend was trying to explain then is that Lotta doesn't understand some of the things the same way as some other dogs do.

Have you tried EXACTLY what R_Dog suggested? I know you think that it won't work with Lotta but I think if you do EXACTLY what R_Dog suggested, it will work. Instead of complaining that none of this will work with Lotta, TRY IT.

If you do exactly what R_Dog suggested, you do all of the steps (and maybe you could even video it so we could help you better) and it still doesn't work (which I doubt will happen) then we will help you.

My friend had tried it since the first thing in putting toys in a box is picking them up. She doesn't understand how could she pick the toys up if Lotta doesn't let go off them so easily. We had even linked a video about that.

My friend is not sure how she could do even the first thing in the list because this is how Lotta reacts:


So, my friend doesn't understand how could it work.....//..... In case someone suggests it, this is how Lotta reacts if my friend tries to give her a treat:

My friend asked me to make that other video because she thought that you might suggest her to throw a treat to Lotta in order to ger her to let go off the toy. In that video my friend wasn't training Lotta she just did it more than once in order to show you what Lotta does if my friend tried trading the toy for a treat.

It could had as well been a different toy each time if my friend had been picking them up also in that second video. So, as you can see, she was taking the toy before she had barely aten the treat. So, my friend wouldn't be able to distract her with a treat. So, how is my friend supposed to be able to pick the toys up if Lotta gets more excited about it and doesn't let go off them so easily? Shouldn't my friend then teach Lotta to be calm around them first?

For example in the following tutorial the trainer is teaching the dog to be calm around toys and to look at her first although those toys are on the ground. Her dog is off the leash. Then she is teaching her dog to look at her although she's standing near of the one of the toys. At one point she is teaching the dog to look at her although she is holding one toy in her hand. So, the name of that tutorial is "Working on eye contact and handler focus around toy's" and at the beginning the dog is teached to look although there are toys around. Note: here my friend is just explaining what is happening in that tutorial.

Stage 2: In the following tutorial Pamela Johnson says that she started training inside the house but not how she started training. How should it be started?

Stage 3:

 

[running_dog]

Follow instruction number 1) EXACTLY every day for a week, then come back and tell us what happened.

For your specific question regarding the instructions: If you pick the toy up and Lotta grabs it just hold it still until she lets go then put it into the box. She only grabbed the one in the video because you were careless and dangled it over her nose.

Honestly, just pick the toys up. You are making it sound like you are trying to take half a buffalo away from a starving lion. But really you're just trying to take a toy off a very small friendly pet dog .