D O G Does Not Spell Horse

Discussion in 'Dog Behavior Problems' started by jacobite, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. MaryK Honored Member

    Anneka is right, you do need to just keep on keeping on LOL and as she said, we being humans, don't always have the same amount of patience as our dogs. We have other things to do in life:) Don't give up on your Charlie, he's a really smart dog and he's learned so much - just the pulling and yes it is a pain for us. Keep trying everything and give anything new time to 'sink in', he's had the habit for a long time, so he's not going to stop quickly:)

    Keep it up you're doing so well and keep us all posted.:)
    Ripleygirl likes this.

  2. jacobite Well-Known Member

    partial success:D. There was someone working on the park, so on the way home, I put Charlie on the lead. This is really hard because it was in the park and not on the road. Anyway, he pulled I stopped, and when I got eye contact, I said Good boy and walked forward. He pulled I stopped. He sat beautifully like a statue refused to make eye contact so I waited and waited, he finally gae up and looked at me. I said good boy and we walked back with him just close enough to be considered not pulling. He is quickly beginning to get the idea, I hope. But that is the once, will need to keep working on it and see what happens.
  3. MaryK Honored Member

    YEAH!:D That's awesome! Keep it up, partial success is the first step to getting FULL success:D(y) Charlie's getting the message and that's FANTASTIC am so happy for you:DThat he's walking just close enough to not be considered pulling really shows that Charlie's finally getting the message 'hey I don't think Mom likes me pulling I'll try not pulling and see if she likes that". Are you using treats as well as praise? I know everyone on this forum will agree with me when I say giving Charlie a treat (it need not be food but anything HE values highly) will make his learning a lot quicker.

    You've made a break through, now just keep on doing the same thing, stop and wait for eye contact he may start to pull again next time he's on his lead, but don't feel frustrated just keep in mind that he's made eye contact before and walked closer than ever, just repeat the stop and wait.

    Charlie's a smart laddie and now he's made that initial break through, if he does pull again, and be prepared he may even if it's just to 'test you' , it will not be too long before he decides once and for all it's just not worth the effort to pull coz Mom just keeps stopping all the time.

    So happy for you, it's a good feeling isn't it when your boy finally starts to respond:D
    Ripleygirl, Dogster and jackienmutts like this.
  4. jackienmutts Honored Member

    Good job! Keep in mind he's been practicing his pulling for a lot of of years, so he's not going quit with just a few tries at anything. He pulls, you go - that's what he's used to. Now he pulls, you stand still. HUH? :eek: Hmm.... Thinking must start going on now. What must happen? Ok, so I must pull harder!!! Mom still doesn't move. I'll wait her out. (and sometimes, this waiting takes F O R E V E R ). Finally, they get antsy cuz there's stuff to sniff, places to go, etc - so if for no other reason, they finally turn around and look you in the eye. At this point, good job on your part, altho you don't even have to speak, say good boy, reward, etc - the act of moving is his reward. Honestly, if he pulls 2' after you start walking and you have to stop again, then do it and wait him out for the next eye contact. I know it sounds ridiculous, but give it time. Charlie is finally going to have that AH-HA moment when he realizes that whoa, mom is connected to the leash, we're a team and should be walking together (as opposed to you feeling like you're being dragged by the lead dog in a sled team - I do get it, trust me!).

    I know some people like their dogs walking perfectly next to them. Frankly, I don't care where mine walk (within the 6' of their leash) figuring it's their walk, and as I take in the world by looking at it, they do so thru their nose, so must "read" the bushes, grass, shrubs, etc as we go - and of course, leave peemail for the next passersby. :LOL: My boy walked just like yours (nothing like being pulled by an 80 lb freight train!), and every now and then, starts out that way (over excitement, I think). I loved that seminar, truly. It takes him no time at all to remember, hey, I'm not alone out here, there's two of us - and what a difference. Her method has been different than most any I've ever heard described or taught ... because of the eye contact. That's the one big difference. And honestlyl, I'd rather my dog choose to make a decision to do or not do something because they're including me in their decision every single time - than rather they just do or not do something cuz "mom said so". Give Charlie time, this is new, he's got to have time to realize all this, think about it, process it, let it settle, and get used to it. His 'not pulling' won't happen overnight. Take all your patience with you when you go out walking - and don't forget to have fun!
    Evie, MaryK and Dogster like this.
  5. jacobite Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the encouragement. Will try Charlie out on the sidewalk tomorrow. See what he does and if he can manage will try walking him outside on the sidewalk more and more. He normally goes out the back where we hae a large dog park out the back. No roads just right out the back door. Size that most foot ball teams would eny
    MaryK likes this.
  6. Ripleygirl Experienced Member

    Well done you & Charlie..! Keep up the great work now. You will get there, Anneke gives some brill advice too. Ask anything you want we are all here to help!(y)
    Dogster, MaryK and southerngirl like this.
  7. jacobite Well-Known Member

    Took 6 treats and waited for him to make eye contact. Stubborn mule looked eerywhere but at me. A cat came up and I petted him. Charlie turned to reproach me but he made eye contact so he got his treat. 5 houses today before we ran out of treats. See if I can get further tomorrow.
  8. Evie Experienced Member

    Loving your idea Jackienmutts!! I have no advice with loose lead walking simply because Evie doesnt do it... she doesnt pull hard, but the lead isn't loose either. She always listened and did it wonderfully at dog school, but she wouldn't ever do it anywhere else... not even in our front yard. She goes as far as no longer accepting treats or reacting to the clicker because walking is more important. Sigh. Makes it a bit difficult when we were taught to train loose lead walking by clicking BEFORE the lead ever gets tight - so that they turn for the treat and leash stay loose. In the beginning it means you're clicking every step or two, but they slowly get the idea and the clicking becomes less frequent. Pity Evie zones outs. So loving this idea of waiting for eye contact before moving on. Think I'll have to try it some day when I have plenty of spare time though because I get the feeling I could be doing LOTS of waiting... she's quite a patient puppy.
    MaryK likes this.
  9. Amateur Experienced Member

    I am beginning to think all Borders zone out when on lead. Its like if they dont have to think they just tune out and walk & pull. Yet off lead they are constantly thinking - must stay by your side must stay by your side.
    MaryK, Pawbla and Evie like this.
  10. Pawtential Unleashed Experienced Member

    Sorry for the late welcome - but welcome.

    I see this alot in class with all breeds - but I would even approach this a different way.

    LOOK
    1) Teach "Look" [eye contact] with a reliable duration of up to 30 sec in the house, off lead.
    2) Proof "Look", in house, ON lead, same duration
    3) Practice "Look" while standing in the position you want him in for increasing durations.

    THERE IS NO MOVEMENT AT THIS POINT

    4) Stepping off with the leg OPPOSITE the side he is on, cue a Look and go forward 1 step, in the house, on leash.
    5) Build this, one step at a time, until you can move around your home with at least 1/2 the time eye contact and always given when you ask.

    Once you have 80% reliability inside - go outside and begin again. START AT GROUND ZERO! Get basic sustained eye contact on request, outside, on leash. Same duration - standing still. Same escalation of steps to build attention during distraction.

    BACKWARDS WALKING
    This does help to develop eye contact behavior but you have to have a high enough rate of reinforcement to keep them interested.





    YO-YOing
    As for the yo-yo pulling - here is a video specifically about dogs that do exactly what you're saying - going out and coming back:



    TARGETING
    You could also try teaching a Nose Touch to your hand or target stick for position:
    A variation on this:


    PIVOT TO POSITION
    The next part is a bit harder but worth the effort. Teaching a dog to pivot and find heel as a trick may come in handy as well.



    FREE
    So what do you do in the meantime in the case of walks - I have a seperate cue [FREE] which I use to tell a dog that they can sniff, walk out of the heel position and generally be a dog. Go to the door, have him Sit, Wait & give eye contact - open door - cue him FREE. Let him have some free time then ask for Loose Leash only from say one tree to another, or one car to another...make the first target no more than 10 steps away - cue a SIT, wait for eye contact and release with FREE. Wash, rinse, repeat!

    Hope some of this helps!
    Ripleygirl, MaryK and Dogster like this.
  11. MaryK Honored Member

    Great advice and great videos(y) downloaded them all, what a brilliant way to start heel work and LOL had to love the little girl in targeting, she was watching the video camera as well as if to say 'hey did you get my best profile' while still working properly:D
    Dogster likes this.
  12. Ripleygirl Experienced Member

    Great advice and training videos to watch there Pawtential. Jacobite, I think from what you are saying you have a BC that is well trained and patient. I think you need to take his brain off the reason he is pulling - these videos are a great step into doing this.
    MaryK and Dogster like this.
  13. jacobite Well-Known Member

    Held 5 treats in my hand and eerytime Charlie pulled, I stopped and waited for eye contact and gae him a treat. Got to 11 houses, so am improing, but am working on it.
  14. MaryK Honored Member

    FANTASTIC!!!:D(y) Charlie and you are going really well!!!!!!!!:D(n)(n) That's grand progress, he's now responding to YOU making EYE CONTACT. Way to go! Keep up the good work, it takes time, but hey progress is being made. Really happy for you there's nothing more delightful than hearing that you're making progress:D. And you must find it so heartening too, 11 houses is FABULOUS for a dog who's been pulling you for so long.(n)
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  15. jacobite Well-Known Member

    13 houses before we stopped, but walking back he walked beautifully. He knows exactly what I want, but is so eager to get out, he forgets and pulls. I am getting a 1 second eye contact. Do I try and get him to look at me longer or what do I do?
    Ripleygirl likes this.
  16. Pawtential Unleashed Experienced Member

    Sometimes this can actually create a yoyo effect - BCs are so smart he may think he HAS to pull then wait then give eye contact to get rewarded. I would take a bag of really yummy, small [no bigger than a pencil eraser] treats with you and reward when he is loose. Ask for eye contact while walking, not just when stopped and even if he isn't looking at you - but he is just in the right place - say YES or click and reward. Don't wait for him to Pull-Stop-Look before rewarding. By the time he went 11 houses he should have gotten at least 20 treats.
    jackienmutts, MaryK and Dogster like this.
  17. Pawtential Unleashed Experienced Member

    Great work! Most dogs pull more going out than coming home - until he gets it completely - maybe use FREE on the way out - let him sniff and enjoy his walk within reason and then work on the Loose Leash for a bit - then FREE - then loose leash - so on and so on...
    jackienmutts, MaryK and Dogster like this.
  18. jackienmutts Honored Member

    Good work so far.

    If it were me, I'd be rewarding constantly for the loose leash walking - and when he pulls, you stop, then stay stopped until he gives you that eye contact, but you don't have to reward for that eye contact. And all you're looking for is a second - just him glancing up at you - hey mom, remember me, can we move? The whole point Kay Laurence stresses about using the eye contact is that the dog becomes aware that the walk is about the dog and you ... not just the dog. It becomes a connected walk, you become a team. Not just a person being pulled by the lead dog from a sled team. :confused: One quick glance (cuz he remembers you're connected to the other end of that leash) and he gets to move again.

    Keep up the good work, he'll get it. As Lisa said, dogs are very excited when they first leave, so it's normal for him to pull more when you first begin your walk. When he is walking nicely (even if it's only for a minute or two), reward him really heavily. It will start sinking in - hey, when I walk more slowly, I get loads of treats, and when I pull, I get nothing. Keep reminding yourself that he's been practicing his lead sled dog routine for years. He's now having to learn a whole new way of walking on a leash. He'll get it. :D

    As I was walking my boy home from the park today, I honestly was thinking about how far he's come, and what he used to be like, and how horrid he used to walk - truly, I think he could have pulled a freight train! He was such a joy to walk with today, and someone even stopped us and paid us a compliment (and I don't care where my dogs walk, as long as they don't pull - meaning, they don't have to walk right by my side, but he chose to today, it was just us, out for a nice walk, on the loosest leash one could imagine). So have hope - you'll get there. Keep the faith!! (y):LOL:
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  19. jacobite Well-Known Member

    trouble with Charlie is he will see eye contact as just another thing he has to do when I stop. To him it is pull, feel Mom stop, make eye contact for 1/2 sec and pull repeat. He is yo yoing. That is Charlie. Orginally I taught him to come back to me when I stopped. To him, this is just another think like that. I am working at the moment on eye contact for 10 seconds. Maybe that might do it, but he sees it as just something I am doing to him , not as teamwork.
    Pawbla likes this.
  20. MaryK Honored Member

    I agree with Jackiemutts, keep rewarding Charlie all the time on loose lead. This is something I do with Ra Kismet, not just when I want him to 'behave' but even when he's already being a good boy:D That way he's associating 'eye contact' with EVERYTHING we do together "hey if I keep eye contact all or most of the time with Mom I get treats YEAH'
    Charlies doing really well, keep reminding yourself, he's been pulling for a long time, so he isn't going to stop immediately:) Stay positive and keep on working with him, one day you'll suddenly have that AHA moment when he 'gets it':D

    He's giving you some eye contact, that's a good start(y) Yes, he will see it as just another thing he has to do, that's what you want isn't it? But if you do as Jackiemutts advises and keep rewarding him on the LOOSE LEAD he'll realize it's something you want most/all of the time, not just when he's pulling ahead.:)

    Ra Kismet now looks to me immediately when another dog barks (his problem which needed to be resolved) and of course he's rewarded. Plus he will now keep looking at me the most of the time when he's just walking along like a good boy:D
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