Hayley Thompson
Well-Known Member
Yeah I was just looking at it too, and found I really had to search around the website before finding out how it "actually" works....wouldnt be for me...
About Yuma And Me...
- Thread starter Sarah.D
- Start date
running_dog
Honored Member
When you run away, if Yuma runs past you, then turn round and run the other way but slowing down a little. This way the game stays as him chasing you not the other way round. Do this again and again if necessary until he is close enough to praise and reward, don't grab him, let him bounce, let him feel happy he's caught you, not conned into a loss of his freedom, he won't fall for that twice.
I'm sure you don't need an expensive system to train your dog. What made the difference for Zac is that now every time he comes to me (whether I call him or not) something good happens to him (all credits go to Sara for her tip). Don't skimp on the rewards. Your dog will learn more from 5 recalls with mega rewards than from 20 with mingy rewards. I call Zac about 7 times per walk and after he has come and been rewarded I send him off again to go on playing. When I leash him he gets lots of treats or another game. Coming to me is part of his games but now I'm trying to make it part of his fibre -
I call him and run away, he chases me, catches me, gets a treat or we flop down exhausted and I pet him for ages,
I send him away and call him straight back for a treat,
I run with him and stop suddenly so he runs on and circles back for a treat.
I don't call him just suddenly start running away, he catches me and gets a treat.
I clap my hands, he runs to me for a treat.
I stamp my feet, he runs to me for a treat.
I try to hide, he finds me (normally before I manage to hide!) he gets a treat.
He runs in and out the river, comes to me and gets a treat.
He looks in the field for something to chase, I say "Oh, I wish you wouldn't do that!" and he runs to me for a treat,
He drops into heel coming up to a gate and he gets a treat.
He chases his doggy friend then runs back to me and, yep you've got it, he gets a treat...
Often now Zac PRETENDS to chase something because he knows I'll call him and he has FUN. Obviously if there is something real to chase he still just closes his ears and high tails over the horizon... but we're getting there.
I'm sure you don't need an expensive system to train your dog. What made the difference for Zac is that now every time he comes to me (whether I call him or not) something good happens to him (all credits go to Sara for her tip). Don't skimp on the rewards. Your dog will learn more from 5 recalls with mega rewards than from 20 with mingy rewards. I call Zac about 7 times per walk and after he has come and been rewarded I send him off again to go on playing. When I leash him he gets lots of treats or another game. Coming to me is part of his games but now I'm trying to make it part of his fibre -
I call him and run away, he chases me, catches me, gets a treat or we flop down exhausted and I pet him for ages,
I send him away and call him straight back for a treat,
I run with him and stop suddenly so he runs on and circles back for a treat.
I don't call him just suddenly start running away, he catches me and gets a treat.
I clap my hands, he runs to me for a treat.
I stamp my feet, he runs to me for a treat.
I try to hide, he finds me (normally before I manage to hide!) he gets a treat.
He runs in and out the river, comes to me and gets a treat.
He looks in the field for something to chase, I say "Oh, I wish you wouldn't do that!" and he runs to me for a treat,
He drops into heel coming up to a gate and he gets a treat.
He chases his doggy friend then runs back to me and, yep you've got it, he gets a treat...
Often now Zac PRETENDS to chase something because he knows I'll call him and he has FUN. Obviously if there is something real to chase he still just closes his ears and high tails over the horizon... but we're getting there.
running_dog
Honored Member
I have been looking into ordering Don Sullivan's "The Perfect Dog" system. I saw an infomercial on it yesterday evening and thought, "Well, that looks like it is worth a try!"
I have since then been researching on the internet about it. Not many places review it, so I went to his website: www.theperfectdog.com and have been watching the testimonial videos and, I have to say, it has me convinced.
Have any of you heard about this before or have any feedback for it? I'm really considering getting it.
I actually disagree with the premise that this system is based on. Adult dogs very rarely physically correct each other unless there is a problem with the dog (dog aggression, poor socialisation, victim/bully syndrome). The most dominant dogs I have ever met do everything by unobtrusive body language - a barely wrinkled lip, a slight change in tail angle, the general bearing of the dog, they rarely fight or "punish", they don't have to, if they do fight they intend to kill, is that the relationship you want with your dog? If you want to talk dog, don't buy a collar, learn dog body language and use it, Yuma would love that. Just as an experiment try slow blinks and yawns next time you want to calm him down...
Sarah.D
Well-Known Member
How does it actually work? I don't guess I came across that part yet. I know that the collar has little nodule things on it that I assume give pressure on the dog, but I'm not so sure.
From the videos on it, the dogs seem to work with it really well. Yes, I want Yuma to think that I am fun and that he gets treats for doing good things, but I don't want him to just do it for the food. I want him to obey me.
"
Hayley Thompson
Well-Known Member
I do agree with that idea of the perfect dog and what they want out of life for sure! I want Riley to be a dog, she is not a human, and I think having rules for her is the safest way she can be a happy dog! But for sooo many things I have read and from what Riley has shown me, she can do those things will positive training only!
Blah, I'm frusterated I cant find exactly where I saw him state it on his page, but I had to dig around for it at first I think under the FAQ, beacuse honestly I went to the how it works, and left thinking this collar must just be a magical collar??? How does it actually work! Anyway I dont know what material the collar is made of but it works because from what I understand, you use the leash to jerk the dog as a correction in various situations, the pressure or whatever it puts on the dog is to "simulate the pressure a mother dog would put on a pup when they are being bad"
But the fact of the matter is that, you are a human step parent, not a dog and not your pups mom. When I first got Riley I took her to the vet and enrolled in puppy class with her, the vets that I go to ARE AMAZING! and totally are advocates for positive training. The best way I have EVER had positive training explained to me is by one of those vets who said:
"If you have a boss, who threatens you with overtime, and threatens to take priviledges away from you in order to get you to work, if thats the only job you can find, you probably will put up with the bullshit (excuse my language!) but ultimately there will come a day when your boss pushes too far and tries to take too much away and you will snap.. HOWEVER...if you have a great boss who encourages you both when you make mistakes and that much more when you do a job well done, who offers you bounus' and time off, someday, if that boss asks you for a little bit more, to do some overtime, you would be much more willing to do that for them"
And that is what I try to think of everytime I work with Riley and get frusterated. She relies on me for everything, even dogs that are abused still try to please their owners whether it be by submission or what have you, because ultimately their life is in that owners hand. Just the same way it is with a person and their boss, if thats the only job I can find, I'm going to try really hard to make it work, but everyone and every dog has a breaking point, that if they are mistreated so often, something is going to set them off (and often it is things that you would never think of).
I really do agree with the last quote you put up from that guys website, with the thinking behind what a happy dog wants, but there are other ways to get to that goal. Whatever you choose to do is up to you!
Blah, I'm frusterated I cant find exactly where I saw him state it on his page, but I had to dig around for it at first I think under the FAQ, beacuse honestly I went to the how it works, and left thinking this collar must just be a magical collar??? How does it actually work! Anyway I dont know what material the collar is made of but it works because from what I understand, you use the leash to jerk the dog as a correction in various situations, the pressure or whatever it puts on the dog is to "simulate the pressure a mother dog would put on a pup when they are being bad"
But the fact of the matter is that, you are a human step parent, not a dog and not your pups mom. When I first got Riley I took her to the vet and enrolled in puppy class with her, the vets that I go to ARE AMAZING! and totally are advocates for positive training. The best way I have EVER had positive training explained to me is by one of those vets who said:
"If you have a boss, who threatens you with overtime, and threatens to take priviledges away from you in order to get you to work, if thats the only job you can find, you probably will put up with the bullshit (excuse my language!) but ultimately there will come a day when your boss pushes too far and tries to take too much away and you will snap.. HOWEVER...if you have a great boss who encourages you both when you make mistakes and that much more when you do a job well done, who offers you bounus' and time off, someday, if that boss asks you for a little bit more, to do some overtime, you would be much more willing to do that for them"
And that is what I try to think of everytime I work with Riley and get frusterated. She relies on me for everything, even dogs that are abused still try to please their owners whether it be by submission or what have you, because ultimately their life is in that owners hand. Just the same way it is with a person and their boss, if thats the only job I can find, I'm going to try really hard to make it work, but everyone and every dog has a breaking point, that if they are mistreated so often, something is going to set them off (and often it is things that you would never think of).
I really do agree with the last quote you put up from that guys website, with the thinking behind what a happy dog wants, but there are other ways to get to that goal. Whatever you choose to do is up to you!
Hayley Thompson
Well-Known Member
ooh and that guy says "You will never use treats; ever. Treats are not only unnecessary, but they can actually be detrimental to the training process for a number of reasons which are explained in Don Sullivan’s training DVDs." which i meant to put in the above post, just to reinforce the boss analogy, sometimes trainers with a balance and vast knowledge of negative and postivie reinforcement can use them in conjugtion with one another. But this guy leaves out the positive all together so i dunno....maybe if you are really into his idea, you could find a trainer to help you that uses positive most of the time, but for behavioural issues, if needed they can assert negative ...i dunno that might be an option for you
Hayley Thompson
Well-Known Member
Oh another thing lol Sorry I'm crazy!!! He says it works in like 4 weeks...thats pretty soon to me, to have a perfect dog, which kind of makes me think that you have to do the negative reinforcement alot throughout the day, not just a couple of times :S
I would like to point out (I bolded it) that of course puppies follow their mother. It's an instinct to follow mom so as not to get killed. However, when puppies grow up then they become independent just like they would in the wild. They leave mom to live off on their own. A grow up dog is no longer a puppy and no longer has this instinct. If you take a litter of pups around 6-7 weeks and encourage them to follow they will. Take a group of 5 yr old dogs and try the same thing. One may follow but I can tell you most won't.
Sarah, I hope you don't think I'm rude. I'm not trying to be. His method of thinking is flawed.
Hayley- The collar is a plastic prong collar. It mimics the pinching feeling of the metal ones. It just looks "friendlier"
running_dog
Honored Member
Yes, I want Yuma to think that I am fun and that he gets treats for doing good things, but I don't want him to just do it for the food. I want him to obey me.
That's why I suggest you look at using dog body language. As I said in my previous post and is reiterated by Charmedwolf the premise is wrong, adult dogs do not relate in the same way as puppies and most infractions even in puppyhood are dealt with using body language not physical intervention.
I would like to say that just because you treat train a dog doesn't mean that it becomes treat obsessed. I hate treat obsession. When I say "treat" it can mean lots of fuss, it can mean a game (in some of the tricks I'm training I CAN'T use food). I was really worried when I took Sara's advice on positive recall training because I wanted Zac to obey me not just want food BUT Sara was right and our relationship has improved so much and it isn't just about food, it is about trust. The food helps him to know that he's done well, but he likes to do things for me - really he'd prefer me to sit down and spend 5 minutes rubbing his back as a reward but I don't have enough 5 minutes in the day
so we compromise and do food as well! I really think that just ignoring a dog is often as negative as we need to be.Don't get me wrong, I have been negative in the past. I've even in desperation been considering those training collars, I'm not talking about desperation with a playful puppy, I'm talking a mature dog with a very high prey drive, he is hunting obsessed, he lives to chase. The reason I'm encouraging you to go down the positive route is that I have been hitting a training block for the last four years and the 100% positive broke that. The thing was that everyone thought Zac was pretty well trained but I was so frustrated because I couldn't take him any further - advanced recall, leave off deer chasing, basketball, basic guide dog skills etc he just didn't GET any of it. The reason I went positive is because the negative training did not allow me to give Zac the freedom we both wanted. If you just want to do basic pet training then this collar will probably work, if you want to go further then I think you will hit a block and be kicking yourself for not taking the longer route.
When a dog is relying on negatives for direction it takes away some of the dog's creativity. If you can get the behaviour you want through positives then your dog retains it's confidence to explore new ideas. I'm just building up that confidence again in Zac. It is hard to explain without experiencing dogs trained by the different methods. I've seen super obedient robot dogs trained by ex policemen using special collars and frankly I never want to see one of these trainers or their depressed dogs again. I want Zac to think, I want him to listen because we are a TEAM. When I look at the Sue Ailsby website (see this thread) I ache to have a pup to train this way. I worked SO hard to train Zac but I just didn't know how to and I messed it up so badly.
I must say, Runningdog, that I'm sooo glad this method has worked for you!
Sarah, I have a deaf dog with 100% recall. I did not get that by corrections, infact, corrections would cause major problems, and ANY trainer that touts no treats, uses corrections. Keep it positive, make being near you a truly rewarding experience, your dog will learn faster and better.
Sarah, I have a deaf dog with 100% recall. I did not get that by corrections, infact, corrections would cause major problems, and ANY trainer that touts no treats, uses corrections. Keep it positive, make being near you a truly rewarding experience, your dog will learn faster and better.
running_dog
Honored Member
Sara, it is GREAT! Still a work in progress but so much fun! And seeing faster more reliable recalls
! And seeing him "tricking" me into recalls 
! We are making progress for the first time in years.
laramie
Experienced Member
Another compliment on Yuma! He's absolutely gorgeous. First, the whining. When he whines, make sure he doesn't have to go potty. If he's just trying to get your attention, you need to ignore him. One thing my family was bad for when they were watching Fairley for me was that if she whined, they would let her out to get her to stop. Every time they did this, it just made her whine until she got out, because she knew that they would give in eventually. We've now moved and no one lets her out when she whines, and it's not a problem any more. Just make sure he stops whining for between 3-5 seconds before you let him out and he'll eventually get the picture that whining doesn't get him what he wants.
Using tug toys is great, but make sure you are very careful with this because he's still growing and all of the pulling can damage his jaw and plates. It can also lead to him not knowing when it's time to stop tugging.
Make sure you don't give him commands when you know he's not going to listen. It's a waste of time and you're training him that "come" means he can continue what he was doing. Also, don't say commands but once. It annoys me to no end when I see people telling their dog "Sit, sit, sit." They're teaching them that they only sit after the word has been said three times, instead of the first time.
Something that I learned when we took Sparrow and Fairley to training was the name game. I will swear by this because it is the best thing in the world. Have Yuma in front of you and say his name, click (if you're using a clicker) and treat. Do this again and again, but make sure he's not getting tired. You should always stop when your dog is still wanting to do the exercise. Eventually he'll realize that his name means treat. Play this game a few times a day. If you have someone that you can practice with, have them stand a few feet from you and call your puppy. He should have figured out that his name means good things and he should go to them. Then you call him and treat him when he comes, just like your partner did. Since your puppy is smart, however, he will learn that as soon as his name is called, he needs to go to the other person after he gets the treat from you, because they will call him and treat him. When he does this, the person who he is not standing in front of needs to call him, even if they call him several times in a row. (He snags a treat from your partner and then goes right to you, even if you haven't called him. Ignore him and have your partner call him again.)
Sorry if any of this doesn't make sense. Just ask about any part of it and I'll try to explain better.
Using tug toys is great, but make sure you are very careful with this because he's still growing and all of the pulling can damage his jaw and plates. It can also lead to him not knowing when it's time to stop tugging.
Make sure you don't give him commands when you know he's not going to listen. It's a waste of time and you're training him that "come" means he can continue what he was doing. Also, don't say commands but once. It annoys me to no end when I see people telling their dog "Sit, sit, sit." They're teaching them that they only sit after the word has been said three times, instead of the first time.
Something that I learned when we took Sparrow and Fairley to training was the name game. I will swear by this because it is the best thing in the world. Have Yuma in front of you and say his name, click (if you're using a clicker) and treat. Do this again and again, but make sure he's not getting tired. You should always stop when your dog is still wanting to do the exercise. Eventually he'll realize that his name means treat. Play this game a few times a day. If you have someone that you can practice with, have them stand a few feet from you and call your puppy. He should have figured out that his name means good things and he should go to them. Then you call him and treat him when he comes, just like your partner did. Since your puppy is smart, however, he will learn that as soon as his name is called, he needs to go to the other person after he gets the treat from you, because they will call him and treat him. When he does this, the person who he is not standing in front of needs to call him, even if they call him several times in a row. (He snags a treat from your partner and then goes right to you, even if you haven't called him. Ignore him and have your partner call him again.)
Sorry if any of this doesn't make sense. Just ask about any part of it and I'll try to explain better.
Hayley Thompson
Well-Known Member
Charmedwolf- Yeah I figured it was like a prong collar...I never trust anything anyways that doesnt openly say what method they use eg: "Positive Training" or if its negative, it should say that right up front. Even just the mere act of me having to dig for the information on to what it actually did on the website should be a major warning flag!
mewzard
Experienced Member
I personally wouldn't use that guys collar either. It's control rather than co-operation. I always look at things like that and say to myself "would i use it on my kids?" 99% of the time the answer is no.
My kids are 7 and 4 1/2, where ever we take them we are told they are polite, well-mannered kids. We have never smacked them, or used any other physical punishment... 'how do you get them to behaved so well?' we are asked....praise! and positive encouragement. Yes sometimes i want to bash my head against a wall... telling my 7 year old for the umpteenth day running put your dirty washing in the basket but he's not worried that i'm going to physically hurt him for not doing it. smacking may make him remember quicker but what relationship will we have if he's afraid of me?
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thats why the majority of us here won't use products like that. you are trying to build a relationship with a different species of animal that is going to last 10+ years.
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Absolutely honestly you will have a much better companion if you praise him and give him sausages than if you use a collar that pinches and causes pain every time he does wrong.
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The more fun you are and more the brings of good and tasty things the esier time you will have with him. Also with him being a shepherd and the size and power he will have.... that will be a very good thing
My kids are 7 and 4 1/2, where ever we take them we are told they are polite, well-mannered kids. We have never smacked them, or used any other physical punishment... 'how do you get them to behaved so well?' we are asked....praise! and positive encouragement. Yes sometimes i want to bash my head against a wall... telling my 7 year old for the umpteenth day running put your dirty washing in the basket but he's not worried that i'm going to physically hurt him for not doing it. smacking may make him remember quicker but what relationship will we have if he's afraid of me?
<>
thats why the majority of us here won't use products like that. you are trying to build a relationship with a different species of animal that is going to last 10+ years.
<>
Absolutely honestly you will have a much better companion if you praise him and give him sausages than if you use a collar that pinches and causes pain every time he does wrong.
<>
The more fun you are and more the brings of good and tasty things the esier time you will have with him. Also with him being a shepherd and the size and power he will have.... that will be a very good thing
mewzard
Experienced Member
if you are in sight - your not too far away! i found this with oka...doing recall where she can see me doesn't work so great as she's like " well i can see you...i'm not lost and neither are you". Running_dogs idea of running away is good run away and when he stops near you then get a tug out... thats a good meathod.I might try the tug thing, mewzard. Thanks for the idea!
And the submissive thing hasn't come to the point of when I pet Yuma that he does it. He still jumps and plays and bites when I pet him. Typical puppy things. But he does lay his ears flat. Not sure if that is a more mild form of submission?
He has gotten to the point now where when I squat down and say, "Come here" he just sits and stares at me with this look that says, "Whatcha gonna do if I don't, Mom?"and then as soon as I move, off he goes. I have even tried walking off and seeing if he follows me if I get too far away, but he doesn't seem to care.
Submission here is i respect your age and experience as an adult not that your are 'dominent'. this is a good resource for expressions; what dogs are saying.
if you squat and then he runs when you move. thats when i would throw a treat at him, squat and throw a treat, that way he thinks 'ohhhh thats nice has she got more?' and will hopefully come towards you.
Sarah.D
Well-Known Member
Wow...
Thank you all for the feedback about the "perfect dog" method. I didn't know that it would cause pain since it looked like it was just nubs on the inside. However, I would like to control Yuma. I don't want a "robot dog" as running_dog said, but I want him to obey.
I know that since he is a puppy he needs LOTS of positive reinforcement and play time. I assure you all, I thoroughly intend to keep him as happy as I possibly can.
I think I am going to hold off on the training methods of anything except the positive thing. He needs to be a puppy and explore, but I am going to be here to correct him if need be by teaching him what is and is not acceptable.
Again, thank you all SO much for being so helpful! I will be sure to come back here and keep everyone updated on the progress and ask if I have any more problems.
Thank you all for the feedback about the "perfect dog" method. I didn't know that it would cause pain since it looked like it was just nubs on the inside. However, I would like to control Yuma. I don't want a "robot dog" as running_dog said, but I want him to obey.
I know that since he is a puppy he needs LOTS of positive reinforcement and play time. I assure you all, I thoroughly intend to keep him as happy as I possibly can.
I think I am going to hold off on the training methods of anything except the positive thing. He needs to be a puppy and explore, but I am going to be here to correct him if need be by teaching him what is and is not acceptable.
Again, thank you all SO much for being so helpful! I will be sure to come back here and keep everyone updated on the progress and ask if I have any more problems.
running_dog
Honored Member
I know EXACTLY how you feel about wanting Yuma to obey without what you see as constant bribery - because I felt the same way myself! I just hope that you find the positives work for you as well as they have worked for us. Please do keep us posted on your training, I for one love to read about real people training real dogs.
ambara
Active Member
My dad doesn't really use rewards with he's dogs because he too feels that they would than do things just for the food. I think there's a difference between bribing a dog and rewarding him. I mean, consider the difference between a dog that doesn't come unless you wave a sausage in front of him and my dogs who come when they are called and than a treat or a toy appears from my pocket It's just a matter of knowing which one you are doing. For some things, like coming when called, I like to reward them every single time no matter how well they know the command but there are times when I've run out of treats or I forgot to bring any toys with me so praise is all I have to offer. My dogs still obey me every time. My dad's dogs on the other hand only obey him whenever they don't have anything more interesting to do...
It's just a matter of knowing which one you are doing. For some things, like coming when called, I like to reward them every single time no matter how well they know the command but there are times when I've run out of treats or I forgot to bring any toys with me so praise is all I have to offer. My dogs still obey me every time. My dad's dogs on the other hand only obey him whenever they don't have anything more interesting to do...
You've gotten a ton of information here already, so I'm just going to add some YouTubers and books to look into, as well as a small rant.
I loathe Don Sullivan's methods with a strong and fiery passion. He and Cesar Milan are of the same mindset and both too far into the mess they have made to change their ways if they even wanted to.
It's Me or the Dog with Victoria Stillwell is a great show to watch. She also has a book or two. Also look for books by these authors:
Jean Donaldson
Patricia McConnell
Turid Rugaas
Pat Miller
I could list hundreds, but these four are great.
YouTube people to look for:
Kikopup
PamelaMarxsen
Again, lots more, but these two are great. Kikopup has tons of videos that teach you how to tackle lots of issues, as well as just some basic stuff. Check out Fickla01's vids for a good way to start your pup as well as some inspiration for trick ideas.
I loathe Don Sullivan's methods with a strong and fiery passion. He and Cesar Milan are of the same mindset and both too far into the mess they have made to change their ways if they even wanted to.
It's Me or the Dog with Victoria Stillwell is a great show to watch. She also has a book or two. Also look for books by these authors:
Jean Donaldson
Patricia McConnell
Turid Rugaas
Pat Miller
I could list hundreds, but these four are great.
YouTube people to look for:
Kikopup
PamelaMarxsen
Again, lots more, but these two are great. Kikopup has tons of videos that teach you how to tackle lots of issues, as well as just some basic stuff. Check out Fickla01's vids for a good way to start your pup as well as some inspiration for trick ideas.