The Plight Of The Purebred

[tigerlily46514]

I bet this topic might stir up heated feelings,
but i hope not. I've discussed this before on other boards, and wow, sometimes fires fly at the very idea. But, before you hit the keyboard to scream me out, maybe take a moment and do even a small amount of research.
and
People are certainly free to believe what they want to believe, and there's no reason to be mean about it, whatever you believe. (i've been called names for saying what i am about to say)
We all love dogs, we are all doing the best we can, with what we understand so far. I know, i was a huge fool about dog food, for decades, i didn't know any better, and i am still learning on that one.

I was recently discussing this on another thread.
I too, used to think having a title, meant the dog was free of illness, or a superior specimen healthwise,
but, there are plennnnnty of instances, when the 'titled' dog, is carrying genes for illness/deformities, and even directly suffering from them himself. But, most ppl think like i used to--------- if the dog has a title, he's a-okay.

but, it's a myth.

I was shocked when i researched this, and learned more on that. Kinda the same way i was shocked when i discovered, late in life, that store bought dog food is often crappy dog food. (heh heh, it might be just ME, it might be *i* am just 'easy to shock', ha ha)

In fact, there ARE amazing, dedicated breeders who breed specifically to remove the health problems that are so rampant among purebreds, but, such breeders are only 5% of all breeders.

One reason is, this testing is terribly terribly expensive.
85% of breeders are backyard breeders, with zero health testing done at all. Some feel if both parents have 'papers', they are good to go. Papers mean nothing at all, except the person paid money to the AKC. that's it, that is all papers mean.
Title means a bit more, but in NO WAY indicates their health was ever ever tested, unless health testing is specifically pointed at, as in OFA certificate.

Of the remaining 15% of breeders, 10% do "some" testing, but not nearly enough testing.

and the rare 5% do extensive testing, researching the entire family tree of both parents, including blood tests, xrays, all kinds of testing is done, but that HISTORY of grandparents, great grandparents, etc, health, is very important too.

Consider watching this. Witness a King Charles Spaniel, standing there with his "BEST IN SHOW" ribbons----from CRUFTS!! while suffering from the horrific sryngomyelia.

and no, USA is no better, do not try to point at this and say, "But, but, that is Britain, is USA, we don't do that".
Yes, we do. In USA, even mother/son matings can get papers, and no health testing is req'd.

Warning some of this may be disturbing to watch:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

Above is part one of six parts of this documentary, the links to parts 2 through 5 can be found in the videos next to that one.

ANYWAY, i never ever ever see harm in thinking.
In wondering.
In learning and researching.
i just don't. And questioning. And i know, on DogTrick Academy, THERE ARE LOTS OF TRUE DOG LOVERS.
so i just wanted to give others who may not have ever considered whether a "registered" dog, or a "purebred" dog, IS healthier or not,
a chance to think it over and at least, QUESTION it.

I am not smart enough, to fully understand what can be done, to change this,
and since there is money involved,
that always makes changing things more difficult...........
BUT IF ANYONE WANTS TO SHARE THEIR IDEAS OF WHAT COULD BE DONE TO CHANGE THE PLIGHT OF THE PUREBRED, feel free to post them.

 

[tigerlily46514]

who DOESN'T know a regal, majestic German Shepherd with bad hips?? We humans impose sometimes arbitrary 'beauty' standards upon dogs in the features we breed towards, like the sloping hip of the GSD, at the cost of the dog's HEALTH and function!!! We could show clips of photos of many many breeds changing through time, to their more extreme 'modern' version,
..........so we humans can think the dog 'looks' just right, according to whatever is current beauty standard for the breed at this time.

Dog shows are beauty shows, not health shows.

http://youtu.be/SRU8UdMnssU

 

[tigerlily46514]

and i also think it is a darn shame, that the border collie is now inducted into the AKC, too, and will now be bred for looks, not function. After 100s of years, of being bred on how they performed, irregardless of how they "looked",
now, someone will want their hips to slope, or their fur to be a certain style, or the shape of their nose to be very very important, etc etc etc.

I remember i watched the first dog show, on tv, in which the border collie would also be included in that beauty show, and i still remember, busting out laffin, as the border collie was acting up. All the other dogs were sitting calmly, waiting for their turn to see the beauty judge,
but that border collie was breeching, walking around, being excited. I did laff to see him, and said out loud to the tv set, "YOU do not belong in a standardized, arbitrary beauty show!! Run, dog, Run!!"

the border collie will now be bred to meet some arbitrary beauty standards, so some human can show off their trophy they got for having a "superior" dog (IS IT???) that meets whatever measurements were determined for that dog's breed, for that particular year.

and this may lead the border collie to an increase in their health problems from a small gene pool, and a decrease in the focus on their working ability, for which they were once so highly prized.

 

[tigerlily46514]

If you do want a purebred, at least RESCUE one, do not $upport backyard breeders and puppy mills (the average human can not tell the difference froma breeder doing actual health testing and a BYB/puppy mill)

Stats show, on average, of EVERY LITTER cranked out for money, at least one of the litter will end up in a dog pound or homeless.

find your next pal on Petfinder.com------>
http://www.petfinder.com/index.html
(that site is for US only, i think............. BUT most countries have similar, dogs-in-need type of adoption site)

rescue a dog, save a dog from being one of the SIX MILLION DOGS put to death each year, in the midst of this severe dog overpopulation crisis. SPAY AND NEUTER!!!

 

[running_dog]

That video on the German shepherd is brilliant, I wonder if we could breed back to the early ones, they look so powerful, more like rottie backs and hind quarters? The modern GS look like they've had their haunches amputated.

I wanted a bedlington terrier or a whippet, after reading up on what the KC had done to the bedlington (over arched backs, copper toxicosis, water absorbant coat) and what it is in the process of doing to the whippet (fragile legs and backs so arched they can't run) there really wasn't much incentive to pay a pedigree price for a vets paradise. Racing and hunting stock can be better but it is hard to find the right breeder and why would I try? I found I could pick up an unwanted cross for a fraction of the price that apart from the tail looks like a large working whippet (flat backed, strong legs) and as a bonus he has an ounce of collie brain and doesn't look like he's apologising for his own existence all the time.

The kennel club has been the death knell for so many breeds, they still exist but in caricature and name only - English bulldogs, Shelties, Bloodhounds, English Mastiffs... the only dogs safe from their money grabbing talons are the mutts, it was a very sad day when the border collie was recognised as a breed. Of course I'm not AT ALL biased but I think that even when people LOVE a particular breed they are better looking for an out-cross of it (NOT a designer dog, there are plenty of rescue or near rescue dogs with discernible parentage), one of the most stunning dogs I've seen was a rescued German shepherd/greyhound, a very big dog, big head (not from the greyhound then!), flat back, no leg troubles at all, super temperament, she wasn't like the early German shepherds of course, she was way too tall!

In short after all my waffle, Tigerlily, I agree with you! In fact as you can probably tell I feel rather strongly about it! Now all the better qualified people can comment while I go do some work

 

[sara]

BUT that all being said, there IS definieatelt a place for breeders. Breeders who title their dogs, not only in conformation, but in working trials as well. There is a breeder in Ontario that's trying to put the "working" back in the Poodle. She bred and trained the first St. Poodle to get it's feild trial title, and is working VERY hard at breeding Poodles to have the strong retreive and drive that they were origonally bred for.

consider the breeders who are trying to improve the health of the Dalmatian. they outcrossed them to the pointer to get rid of the kidney problem they're sooo known for.

Keeping the working ability in a breed is sooo important, imo. luckily, BC's are not a recognized breed yet in the Canadian Kennel Club, and fanciers fighting recognition.

But it's not the responsible breeders causing so many health problems Look at the Irish Terrier. There are no inherant health issues in the breed... why? well, they're not popular, so they haven't been overbred by irresponsible BYB's, the lines have been kept pure with a very strong drive. they are what they've always been meant to be. (and truly not for everyone!)

I am very passionate about rescue, but I dont believe everyone should rescue. And statistically, mutts are often not healthier, they get all the common ailements that purbreds get. like Hip and elbow Dysplasia, hypothyroidisn, enlarged hearts, epilepsy, etc. there is no such thing as hybrid vigour in dogs, as crossbreeds are just that, crossbreeds, NOT hybrids. a lab cross poodle will have all the same issues as a purebred of both parent breeds, as the same health issues run in both breeds.

BUT in the example of the pointer x Dalmatian, it's a good thing. As well as breeding a Staffy (or anything else, really) to an English Bulldog, or breeding a chi or a terrier to a Dachshund to shorten the back and get the dwarfism out of them (causes the massively crooked legs they're known for).

I've rescued 7 dogs, in my life, I think I've done my part. I also think that if everyone who buys a puppy, would rescue their next one, we'd be alot less overpopulated with dogs in shelters. I do want to buy a dog one day, I really, REALLY want an Irish Terrier, and there are NONE in rescue here. there are a few on petfinder, but very few. (about 20, and about 25% of those are purebreds)

I think the movement is towards rescue, I bet over 50% of dogs I meet here are rescues or re-homes, that's a great statistic!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Sara, i so agree, like i said above, there ARE some rare
but amazing and dedicated breeders, working to reduce purebred health problems, and HATS OFF TO THEM!!!
YAY!! I'm all for THAT!! YES I AM!!
but that is A RARE breeder, but, yes, they DO exist!!! The testing req'd is extensive to help remove the genes in the lines that are causing alll the inherent health problems becoming so rampant in most purebred breeds.
See, it's all about knowledge of GENETICS, and the size of the gene pool. THAT makes a big difference in how often, or how severe, deformities become, as we humans work towards a certain APPEARANCE, which is all title means. (unless it is for ability, or has OFA certification, etc etc, but sorry, just a 'title' only meets that dog matches the body measurements they have been trying for, has nothing to do with health, like i said above. But, i once thought exact same thing, tha "title" meant a healthier specimen)

btw, the Irish Terrier, does have some higher than average tendencies for thyroid problems, cataracts, but "respectable" breeders do not breed the dogs with that hyperkeratosis anymore, or so the net says. But Sara, if that breed became wildly popular, probably this breed, although healthier than most, WOULD be prone to an increasingly more severe, and more rampant, larger range of health problems.

 

[running_dog]

Where the problems start is when the purpose of a breed is lost. So maybe every Crufts champion Border collie should herd sheep (Yes!), every Ch. whippet should have to win a race (Why not?), every Ch. Bedlington terrier should have to kill a rat and catch a rabbit (Erm, I can see the RSPCA getting restive), every Ch. bulldog should bait a bull (I think NOT), some of the niches for these breeds have been lost, should we try to perpetuate them as ornaments? I really don't know the answer.

Digging back into my memories of genetics and synthesizing this with dog books and dog talk I THINK that:

Some crosses prevent recessive genetic conditions being expressed because the healthy dominant genes from one parent prevent recessive unhealthy ones from the other parent being expressed. I used the word outcross rather than cross as I was meaning not a random mating but one where two very different breeds with different strengths and weaknesses are crossed (deliberately or accidentally) to produce what is I suspect essentially a hybrid. Beyond the first cross of this kind, yes, the pups become mutts not hybrids because the parents may carry the recessive genes that cause the problems so these could be expressed in the offspring (we had a mutt lurcher with a fatal genetic problem). If the crossbred is not from an outcross it is just a mutt (even if it is tagged a Labradoodle).

If Irish terriers are healthy then enjoy! After 3 rescue dogs in the family I bought Zac from a private seller so I wasn't meaning to condemn people who buy I was just suggesting that they don't buy a vets paradise pedigree nor get a dog with a compound name and a fancy price tag. I see it is important to get the right balance between rescuing and thoughtful breeding - an awful lot of thoughtful breeding went into border collies for years before the KC noticed them. I shouldn't have made such a sweeping statement - after all if there weren't dog breeders and dog breeds where would I get my precious outcrosses from!

 

[Lexy88]

I come from a Labrador breeding family. My parents always had Labs, they did ALL the health tests, they bought pups from healthy parents and grandparents. My mum was soo passionate about breeding and producing healthy dogs AND dogs that met the breed standard, as in NZ, champion Labradors look NOTHING like what the breed standards state they should be! Labs these days are huge and look like blood hounds for goodness sake, the average male being around 50kg - what the hell? A Lab should be 28-32kg. Or, at the other end of the scale, hunting Labs are tiny wee things with tiny wee paws and pointy noses and whippy tails. They look like terriers and acted like them too - nothing like what a Lab should be. My dad and brother hunted our Labs for years.

Unfortunately, the snooty show and breeding world soured my mum's attitude towards breeding and she stopped. Mum got into breeding chocolates when they became horrendously popular in NZ, I guess about 20yrs ago. She had 3 litters from her first chocolate bitch - who had all the health testing, great healthy lines, and so did the sire of the litters. Mum was producing Labs that met the standard AND were healthy but, she sold them at 'pet prices' and some breeders in the area went ballistic about it as it pretty much stole a lot of their business. Mum bred Labs because she loved them and wanted others to love and enjoy them too, at a price they could afford. Of those 3 litters - 30 pups in all - one had epilepsy (there was NO history of it on either side of the family) and another got hip dysplasia at about 18mths old. The owner of this pup was following the feeding recommendations on a packet of vet supplied dog food. Mum told her it was waaaaaaay more than she would ever feed her dogs. The pup at 6mths old weighed more than its full grown mother. Unfortunately, the owner didnt listen, pup got hip dysplasia HIGHLY likely from being waaaay too overweight while growing and complained to NZKC. NZKC did some snooping and found that the other puppy had epilepsy. Even though those were the ONLY incidences EVER of health problems from pups my mum bred. They kicked her out of the kennel club and refused to register any pups she bred. Another breeder told her that they had also been kicked out of the kennel club for some mundane reason which eludes me now. They were also breeding chocolates and selling them at pet prices when chocolates were so popular. She hasnt bred anything for well over 10yrs now.

The KC dont make it any easier for those who ARE trying to do the right thing. Unfortunately they are rewarding bad breeders by turning a blind eye. And also, one should note, a lot of those bad breeders, are running the KC. Its the same in the horse racing industry [this was where I work]. The reason the racing industry is running rampant with horse abuse, drug abuse, blah blah blah, is because the people who are in charge of it all, are the ones doing all the wrong. So it is VERY hard to have change unless someone can step up, and front up to those big guys, who want to do what theyre doing because it makes them easy money.

 

[mewzard]

Oka's breeder is out crossing her breed (Northern Inuits) for health as the state of the breed in the UK is appaling. She is being bad mouthed, abused etc from most of the other breeders for the 'type' of dog. Its a huge mess with now many dogs of the same look having different names and is a total shambles.
I went with her as a breeder as she did all tests and stated any health problems that have occured in which dogs (that she refused then to breed from).
She is out crossing to the founding breeds that started the NI to try and a) increase the gene pool, and b) increase the health....c) is possibly to define a look for the dogs as they don't really have one if you google the name the range of looks is insane, but c) at the moment isn't a priority. i have heard of 8month NI pups put to sleep as they had severe HD, epilesy, addingsons... the list is scary

Oka is 50/50 NI and German Shepherd. Her dad, the GSD, was fully health tested. It's horrible to look at the GSD in shows as in my mind they are not 'fit for purpose', This boy won the pastrol group this year: http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=PAS&ScheduleID=71#2011_GSD_BOB.jpg When he ran round the ring his shape was horrible (to me). People see Oka in the street and tell me that she's a beautiful example of a Shepherd: because she has a flat back, she has a tiny slope at her pelvis.

The (UK) Kennel club have changed some of thier rules and are supposed to be investigating all claim of unwell dogs in thier shows. They are keeping an eye on certain breeds too as thier health problems have become very serious e.g. the boxers who can't breath well enough to give birth and thier hips are too narrow to give birth?! They have been working to change the standards on certain breeds to try and get the breeders to balance looks and health more.

 

[tigerlily46514]

I SO SO APPLAUD those breeders who DO genetic and health testing to help reduce the health problems! OH I DO!! Make no mistake, i am ALL FOR those breeders, dispite the dog overpopulation crisis, which is sooooo outa control, we'll NEVER EVER see the end of it, (and nope, even if humans stopped selling dogs, we would NOT run out of dogs!! We KILL six million dogs a year, that is over 17,000 per DAY, if they do it 7 days a week.
we got PLENTY of dogs !!!

even with the severe overpopulation CRISIS,
i so so am FOR those working specifically to weed out the dogs carrying diseased genes from reproducing, and mating up actually healthy dogs, wh HAVE actually undergone all the extensive testing,
i am FOR that,
i really am!! THOSE breeders, should go right on breeding, imo.
however, that is such a small small small small small % of breeders.
even if THOSE rare breeders went full out, cranking as many truly healthy litters as they can,
that is SUCH a small % of litters, it would not increase the crisis.

Interesting comments, all of them. I knew just what the person ws referring to, about the difficulties of trying to both increase a breed's health, yet, trying to please the beauty queens, i mean, AKC.

Again, AKC, and general titling, (the Ch in front of a dog's names)
has ZERO to do with a dog's HEALTH, or FUNCTION. nope. nothing.

 

[tigerlily46514]

YES, Mewzard, your GSD is so so so much better shaped than the prize winner, now,
isn't that kinda NUTZ?
I'm SO happy, you somehow located a dog who'd escaped the latest breeding trend!! Yay!!

And Lexy, i think you make a great point, there IS money involved, and this is one of those who want DOG'S HEALTH to be more of a concern in breeding trends....THAT is the biggest hurdle, THAT and public education. Most ppl do believe having an AKC or KC registrations "means something".
and yeah, wouldn't it be great for GSDs if we COULD reverse the last half century of GSD breeding trends?

Running Dog, ha ha, i never heard that experession before, "vets paradise pedigree", but, way way way too often, that IS the case.

i really believe in people, i really like to think, IF more ppl became aware of the health problems, and what is causing them, i like to think we'd do better. We could make a wave of pressure, all of us together....maybe. Okay, maybe that is idealistic, too often, money is what talks....but not always. NOt every time, sometimes getting ppl to do the right thing has more power than money, sometimes doing right CAN win out over money, (or even win out over false pride over winning dog beauty contests, which do NOT promote healthier or higher functioning dogs, is only a beauty contest...).

okay, maybe my idea of doing right for dog's health could win out over tons o money + false pride,
IS idealistic,
but, i'm in very happy mood today!! ha ha.

 

[Dodge]

))got my head between my knees in shame here!!((
I ve not done no research into the breed or breeder where we got Dodge from . . . I just didnt know about any problems like that at that time,only read up since having him.
The only reason I wanted a puppy and not a rescue (which quite frankly I would never do again,not because of the hard work,just because I now know how many dogs are sooo desperate for a loving forever home) I never had a dog before and having my two boys (13 and 14 then) I just could not risk having a dog in the house that could "turn" ,with different situations,as you dont know what these poor dogs have been through and I did not feel that I could ve helped a dog with difficult issues back then . . . . well,I would love that challenge now!
Anyway,I loved reading through all of these comments,so clever and informative,thank you for that guys

 

[Ina]

))got my head between my knees in shame here!!((
I ve not done no research into the breed or breeder where we got Dodge from . . . I just didnt know about any problems like that at that time,only read up since having him.

Same here ... we always had rescues, just because it always seemed the right thing to do. Smokey was different - got him from one of those pet stores. He stole my heart the minute I set eyes on him. 3 days after I first saw him he was still in the shop window, lying sadly in the corner whilst all other puppies had fun. I feel as if I 'rescued' him out of there.

Now I have to wait for my kids to grow up a little (the youngest is only 5) before rescuing a Border Collie. A BC would herd my 3 kids and all their friends so I better wait a few years.

 

[mewzard]

YES, Mewzard, your GSD is so so so much better shaped than the prize winner, now,
isn't that kinda NUTZ?
I'm SO happy, you somehow located a dog who'd escaped the latest breeding trend!! Yay!!

Actually my point kinda was that Oka is what people *think* the standard look for the GSD should be - but she's not a full GSD.

We looked at rescues before we contacted Oka's breeder - but in the UK most rescues have a no child under 6 policy and puppies are not common in rescues.

 

[tigerlily46514]

So many great points, so many great comments, and such interesting stories from everyone.
Worth noting,
re: getting a rescue -----------you CAN rescue infant baby dogs. In USA, there is Petfinder.com, and most other countries have similar websites to peruse dogs in need vs $upporting a breeder. I much prefer adult dogs, but, for those who DO want infant dogs---there are many many baby dogs on Petfinder.com.
http://www.petfinder.com/index.html

Also, re the comments suggesting rescues can 'turn'. I could derail the topic with a whole blog on that comment, but, like dogs hand raised in homes from day one, rescue dogs may have their limits as for tolerating pokes in the eyes, etc etc. It is an exxxxtremely rare dog who bites without a warning.
A dog "turning" without provocation, onto a human, is so rare, it makes nat'l news when it occurs. And of the rare instances i've heard, these were dogs hand raised by the owners to be agressive protection dogs, not rescues. The overwhelming vast majority of dogs, become devoted family members very very loyal to their families.

I did take worst dog i could find, scheduled for death because of his issues,
but, like i said above, almost all rescue dogs on Petfinder are awesome, lovely dogs, ready-to-go without issues. Taking home in INFANT dog, does risk the unknown temperment, imo. Taking home an adult dog, is a no mystery way to meet your next dog.
No one knows for sure who an infant dog will grow up to be. Inherent shyness shows up at birth, but, dog agression can develop, even in well socialized, well raised dogs, but, earliest signs of dog agression are overlooked/dismissed and are not undeniable until about 7 months to 12 months old. (Read "Click to Calm" and see how even a well socialized dog CAN be discovered to be dog agressive).

An adult dog can be temperment tested. If the dog pound doesn't have personel qualified to do so, many breed orgs will send volunteers to help temp test a dog. Dogs with issues are usually kinda obvious.

So, again---for those who are NOT interested in helping rehab a hot-mess dog, the hot-mess dogs are pretty easy to spot, even for amatuers, and especially by the personal at dog pounds and rescue orgs. The stable dogs are the overwhelming majority of dogs in dog pounds.

And, dogs living with foster familys, are very very very veyr well known dogs, the foster family can tell you EVERY lil thing about that dog----what he is good at, his fears if any, how much excercise he needs to stay sane, does he bark a lot, how does he get on with cats? kids? strangers? being home alone? Does he shed a lot? WHATEVER you wanna know, those fosters can and will tell you, they are very interested in helping create a GOOD MATCH between human expectations/wishes and dog's specific qualities.

SO FOR THOSE OF YOU NEEDING A READY-TO-GO, NO-MYSTERY DOG, LOOK AT DOGS LIVING WITH FOSTERS.
and yes, there ARE BABY dogs in the dog pound!! GO LOOK!!! I once had a thread on "Myths of the Rescue Dog"....

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yes, UK being smaller nation than USA does have less puppies on their pages, but, some are there. The ages of children in the home that are req'd vary a bit from org to org: (SOME OF THESE LINKS CONTAINS LISTS OF MANY SUB-GROUPS, too)
http://www.dogpages.org.uk/

http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/

http://www.animalsanctuaries.co.uk/sanctuaries.asp?B=M

http://www.rescue-dogs.co.uk/

http://www.rspca.org.uk/home

there is yet another UK rescue page, i'd seen before, forgot the name of it. ah here it is, a pal of mine in UK says he much prefers this org: (forgot why)
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/

 

[tigerlily46514]

Here is old old thread, i thought it was "Myths about the Rescue Dog", but, nope, it was called "don't BUY a dog"

http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/dont-buy-a-dog-not-any-dog-at-all.3109/

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I feel as if I 'rescued' him out of there.(a pet store)"//
in truth, every dollar given to pet stores, who are the WORST for $upporting puppy mills, is, in fact, going to a puppy mill, keeping them in business. Almost all pet store pets are from puppy mills.

but, i'm learnign too, the more we know, the more we learn,
the better off we are, and the better off our dogs are, too. Most ppl do not know this kind of stuff, i was the same way in the past.

Of all places to get a dog, pet stores are the absolute WORST of all. Pet stores do not care whatsoever the conditions those dogs cranking out litters are kept in. Not at all. Pet stores are all about the dollar, is a profit thing. Whichever puppy mill can offer cheapest dogs, is where they get their dogs. The pet stores do NOT inspect the puppy mills, and some of those would make you gasp!! Why do they do it? cuz someone WILL give them cash for what those dogs, keeping them in business.

some pet stores DO work in tandem with rescues,
but
those dogs are clearly marked as being rescue dogs, or dog pound dogs, and almost always have rescue org personal standing beside those dogs.

 

[Dodge]

Also, re the comments suggesting rescues can 'turn'. I could derail the topic with a whole blog on that comment, but, like dogs hand raised in homes from day one, rescue dogs may have their limits as for tolerating pokes in the eyes, etc etc. It is an exxxxtremely rare dog who bites without a warning.
A dog "turning" without provocation, onto a human, is so rare, it makes nat'l news when it occurs. And of the rare instances i've heard, these were dogs hand raised by the owners to be agressive protection dogs, not rescues. The overwhelming vast majority of dogs, become devoted family members very very loyal to their families.

I did take worst dog i could find, scheduled for death because of his issues,
but, like i said above, almost all rescue dogs on Petfinder are awesome, lovely dogs, ready-to-go without issues. Taking home in INFANT dog, does risk the unknown temperment, imo. Taking home an adult dog, is a no mystery way to meet your next dog.
No one knows for sure who an infant dog will grow up to be. Inherent shyness shows up at birth, but, dog agression can develop, even in well socialized, well raised dogs, but, earliest signs of dog agression are overlooked/dismissed and are not undeniable until about 7 months to 12 months old. (Read "Click to Calm" and see how even a well socialized dog CAN be discovered to be dog agressive).

An adult dog can be temperment tested. If the dog pound doesn't have personel qualified to do so, many breed orgs will send volunteers to help temp test a dog. Dogs with issues are usually kinda obvious.

So, again---for those who are NOT interested in helping rehab a hot-mess dog, the hot-mess dogs are pretty easy to spot, even for amatuers, and especially by the personal at dog pounds and rescue orgs. The stable dogs are the overwhelming majority of dogs in dog pounds.

. . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .

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))shame on me!!(( I did not know anything about owning a dog . . . and thought at the time that having a puppy would be best for us,he came from a loving home,brought up in the lounge with all his brothers and sisters I would never have gone to a pet shop,I can swear on my boys live. I did not have the slightest clue about rescue dog's and so did not know how I would be able to deal with it,but if my boy will go to the bridge (in about 50 yrs time,with a bit of luck) I would never ever have a pup again,like I said before,I would love the challenge(maybe the wrong word,I ve not mentioned before that I m german,did I ,I ve been in england since 97 though) to show and teach a rescue dog how much love they can receive of a family
I m a member on a boxer rescue site,too and have learned soooo much about how lovely rescue are,so please dont think I meant that I thought rescues are bad or nasty,quite the opposite acctually, I would only have a rescue now and never a puppy again(I just simply did not know better at the time of getting him)
I guess we was very lucky that he has got the sweetest temperament and got no issues with any agressive behaviour

I take my hat of to you!!!!! I just wish I would ve known what I know nowadays,that what I was so frightened of back then was nothing at all to even give another thought