Help! Problem With Cop Cop

Discussion in 'Training Challenges' started by MaryK, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. MaryK Honored Member

    Wow Chance got it in one session! That's amazing!(y)

    Sorry you're still having trouble with cop cop but at the same time, glad I'm not alone with this one, was feeling very down as everyone seems to have it off pat:( (no pun intended)

  2. MaryK Honored Member

    First, you have explained everything very clearly, nothing wrong with your English:)(y)

    I'll ask my partner (very sweetly:)) to video for me, as trying to set up the camera would be a bit difficult as we tend to kind of 'move around' a bit trying this trick, so getting the angles would be a tad too difficult. And LOL I'll give partner clear instructions on those too, never mind fancy lighting, just get the angles right.

    I'll watch where I'm holding the treat didn't know this could mess up the walk. To be honest I'm not sure quite where I hold it, so will make sure I hold it low down. I am probably holding it a bit higher than I should be.

    Ra Kismet is VERY food motivated and again, I didn't know this could cause a dog to shut down. Ooops I've been working the wrong way around on this, thinking 'high reward' would do the trick.

    I'll have to make a target stick, they didn't even know what I was talking about at the biggest pet suppliers here, unless I can get one from overseas with reasonable postage. Will do that and get him used to 'targeting'.

    Thank you so much, have learned a lot and will post video a.s.a.p. hopefully the weekend if partner isn't working overtime.
    orpheum likes this.
  3. MaryK Honored Member

    Just realized, what you said about high rewards shutting down thinking. That's why it works so well with Ra Kismet after his big trauma with a dog attacking him. Using high rewards when faced with other dogs in the street has worked so well, because it shuts down his thinking! As you say, good thing to know at times, very handy. Boy do I learn a lot from this forum:cool:(y)
    orpheum likes this.
  4. orpheum Well-Known Member

    Change the way you are training. Shiloh isn't Chance :D
    Maybe use a double paw target and then later on put targets on your shoes ??
    Lure him into the position with your toes pointing to each other (lesser chance of dog missing your feet)??

    I know there are a lot of people who claim that a dog does not shut down his thinking etc etc. But one of my dog gets "blinded" by some treats. I can lure her straight into a wall ... :D
    So for me luring needs to be done with a lower value treat with her.
    Making your own target stick is cheaper and easy. Take an old antenna of a radio (preferably extendable) and put a small ball or a card board pad on it. I choose a bigger object on the pointer since it helps the dog to focus harder. You don't find it in regular pet shops here neither. Normally an (FCI) obedience club will know where to buy stuff like this.
    will give you an excellent idea on how to introduce this in your training.
  5. MaryK Honored Member

    Again, thank you! LOL Ra Kismet would do the same thing he's so food motivated.

    Great idea for making my own target stick, will have a hunt around, hopefully I didn't throw out an old radio in the last hard rubbish collection. Otherwise will ask friends someones bound to have one.

    I noticed in the video she throws the treat, thereby keeping the dog moving, will do this with Ra Kismet has he sits (like a good boy) when we complete a trick.
    orpheum likes this.
  6. MaryK Honored Member

    Still waiting for partner to help with video:rolleyes: And also getting an antenna for a target stick, am eying off the antenna on the old car;) (and LOL partner is eying off me eying off the antenna - I'll get it some how).

    But can report we have PROGRESS!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks to your tip about holding a treat too high Orpheum, I have held the treat down at nose level and VOILA one dog now walks along properly, albeit a bit too quickly if anything, but he's WALKING LIKE A NORMAL DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Major breakthrough! I'm sooooooooooooo happy! Will post video hopefully in the next couple of days, way too hot to film today, we have to work after dark, but it's supposed to cool down over the next couple of days. I still would really appreciate your help and advice on this trick.:D
    Mutt and orpheum like this.
  7. orpheum Well-Known Member

    Happy to hear this !!! Yay for you and Ra-Kismet.
    Of course I will try to help you as much as possible from overseas in my "bestest Inglish" :ROFLMAO: .
    And there are also other people here that can give you some good advice. A lot of different ideas will be more likely to result in a solution for you and your dog.
    Would like to see a video on how you used to train and what you have changed if possible (yes I can be a bit demanding ;)). Knowing where you started might be important.

    Work after dark because it's too hot ?? Here the winter has come knocking on our door. I miss the sun and the longer days. But too hot to do anything isn't fun neither. This week is a long/hard work week (+ 60 hours minimum), so could be that I don't reply as fast. Will be tired by the end of the week :(
    Mutt and MaryK like this.
  8. MaryK Honored Member

    Yes this forum rocks, so many people willing to help:D Your English is great, so don't worry about that at all.:D(y)

    LOL glad someone else is demanding, I'm accused of that at times too:rolleyes: Just means we know what we want, clear minded etc.:D

    Hopefully can get video up very soon and I got the Antenna YAH! Just got to get a ball for the end now and woweeee, one great target stick!

    I love winter, especially snow, LOL which tends to make me the odd person out:rolleyes: When it's way too hot, as it is now, it's hard to focus on anything, other than staying inside with the air conditioning roaring! Ra Kismet doesn't work well in the heat either cannot blame the chap, but it's supposed to cool down a little, so will video a.s.a.p. One area I know I'm not good at is the hand cues, mine could be seen from the moon!!!!!!!! I'm so lucky to have a fantastic dog who's so willing to learn, he teaches me more than I think I teach him, I'm so proud of him and my older boy Zeus.

    Have done the 60+ hour weeks, they're not fun and you would be tired, so take it easy and reply when you can I understand perfectly:)(y)
  9. southerngirl Honored Member

    MaryK you can buy a tri pod stand or have the camera/video camera propped up on something so that you don't have to have someone help.:)
    MaryK and Dogster like this.
  10. MaryK Honored Member

    Finally!!!!! On a ballistically hot night, more humid than a Turkish Steam Bath, with flies swarming in like WW2 Spitfires, partner has helped with the video! As you can see Ra Kismet is now just moving his hind quarters a little, but it's not good at all! (Swats away flies, wipes brow)

  11. MaryK Honored Member

    Forgot to add, he also charges ahead with peekaboo walk!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For some reason he's just not getting it!:eek:
  12. MaryK Honored Member

    Plus he refuses to target, where on earth am I going wrong? He usually learns so quickly and is so ready and willing to work. But not with target sticks!

  13. orpheum Well-Known Member

    Hey MaryK,
    I have watched your clip on peekaboo/copcop and targeting. This is MY opinion on things, you don't need to agree on everything.

    First I would like to start by mentioning that Ra Kismet is a very smart doggie and he offers the behaviour that you click (maybe without you knowing, but he's really good at it ).

    Secondly I would like to add a important note.
    Remember that the click is like taking a picture of that PRECISE moment.
    It points out to the dog that the behaviour, on the moment you click, is what you want and he gets a treat. I can see that your click is consequently being followed by a treat (good thing), but let's take a closer look at the timing. Look at what Ra is doing at the moment you click on 0:26. (not in position, 'cause mommy lured him out of position ), 1:17 2:05 2:59 (walking out of position to sit in front of you). I can also see the same behaviour in the clip on targeting. He sits and looks at mommy in the beginning of the targetting clip, because mommy clicks for this behaviour (and not the targeting).
    Also do remember that adding a cue is for later on, once they know the behaviour. You're already adding a cue when the behaviour has not yet been defined for the dog.

    Let's break down the peekaboo into small steps and do remember that once you made small steps you need to break them down into smaller pieces to fit your dog . Babysteps is the keyword when clicker training, giant steps too early in the training process get a less defined behaviour.

    The end position is
    1) standing between your legs
    2) with his shoulders level with your knees
    3) preferably looking up
    It could be that I'm missing out on something or one of your personal criteria that you would like to add.

    I do NOT hold my dogs back with my hands, nor do I need to constantly bend over for teaching the position (I'm almost 2 meter tall by the way).
    I work in treat batches, meaning 10 small treats and after this I evaluate MY training plan and the progress. Than another batch, and so on. One training session can exist out of as many batches as you want, since your dog gets some time to relax in between. The longer you train, the less focus he has in the end.
    - Find/make yourself a small entry (you can block a part of a door entry for example) just big enough to stand in with your legs open as you would be doing peekaboo. This will make it a lot easier for him to make the right decision, since the options are minimized (control the environment.
    - Get your dog on one side and stand with your back towards the dog. If needed you can lure him a bit, but I would advice to just say his name to get his attention in the beginning. Your dog needs to come through your legs to look at you. Mark the moment he walks through your legs and feed him in that position. I personally do a rapid fire of 3 treats to create a real beneficial situation for the dog. Remember to ONLY do the rapid treating when his shoulders are level with your knees. If he moves out of position ... Too bad for him and try again. Since Ra has the tendency to move forward I would advice to throw the last treat to your back. The reason I throw away the last treat is to get the dog out of position and reset the behaviour again from zero. Don't forget to throw the treats to your back left and right side to learn him to come back in position from different angles.
    - Build up endurance in the exercise. Start fumbling with the food a bit so he has to wait for his treat a bit longer, but still maintain his position.

    To get him to look up hold the treat at hight of your belly button in concealed hands. Remember to reward "straight down the drainpipe". By this I mean that the dog needs to look up and the treat goes to his mouth in a straight line so the head stays up to receive the treat. If you treat "in the mailbox" (looking forward) you will need to work harder on the looking up part.
    If he still has trouble looking up put a small table (his shoulder height) in front you. Ask him in the position of peekaboo. If he looks up, click and put the treat on the table. If he looks up again click/treat and again and again. This way you isolate the looking up motion.

    If you, as a handler, always maintain the same position from the beginning(stand up straight, legs opened a bit and hands in front of belly button), you will see this becomes a non-verbal cue for the peekaboo.

    Once you have learned the position we can talk about moving, but this will be for another post. Tomorow I will try to make a short video covering the most important items in this (far too) long answer.
    Once again, I don't know everything and you don't have to agree on everything. But I believe that making a structured plan in advance will help you getting to the end result.
    Mutt likes this.
  14. MaryK Honored Member

    First, thank you so much!!!!!!!!:D I didn't realize I was treating the 'wrong' moves. Obvious once you pointed it out, I cringed, because as you say, Ra Kismet is one very smart doggie and I'm rewarding him incorrectly, thus confusing the little chap. I am sooooooooo glad to have that pointed out to me(y) I watched each time frame again and again, and boy I can see what I've been doing wrong. Always knew it was me, not Ra Kismet, phew but we learn by our mistakes.

    Am looking around right now for a suitable doorway to block (will not use the outside door as one of my cats would be off like a flash). I think this room will be best. Just got to find something to block the doorway, I can see EXACTLY what you mean about controlling the environment. No problems with finding a small table if needed, have one in mind already.

    I hate bending over all the time, thank you, will hold the treat up to my belly button and work on getting Ra Kismet to just come into the right position. Again, a timely reminder to throw the treat BEHIND me to re-set and from both sides!

    I am pretty sure he'll come between my legs just using his name, so will try with that first, using a lure as a last resort. Will keep just enough treats in the bag for one session and use the rapid fire when and ONLY when he does the right thing. I must get out of the habit of rewarding him, those eyes get me in, my fault entirely.

    I have hated holding him back, seemed unfair to him, and also darned awkward for me too.

    So thrilled to know what I'm doing wrong, I feel I've done a complete injustice to Ra Kismet. He'll thank you.:)
  15. MaryK Honored Member

    OMD!!!!!!!!!!! Quick up date Orpheum. I did as you said, blocked the door way and followed ALL your advice and VOILA one doggie popping his head through, looking STRAIGHT up at me and re-setting himself, with head/shoulders between my legs SO quickly, after I threw the treat behind me, I LOL hardly had time to get ready for the next click/treat! And I did NOT have to bend YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!

    I didn't need to initially lure him, as I thought, he answered to his name. After that, as I've said, it was find the thrown treat and pop head/shoulders between Mommie's legs!

    Ra Kismet 'got it' really quickly, he amazes me at his speed of learning, when I get it right!

    We'll practice more a bit later, as this is a trick we can do inside.

    Oh I forgot to add that he does have breaks in his training session, LOL when it's outside he goes and gets his ball and charges around with that for a while, no sitting quietly with this boy:D
    Dogster and orpheum like this.
  16. orpheum Well-Known Member

    Don't worry you're not making more mestakes than anyone else. If you don't do anything, you won't do anything wrong is the way I look at this (y) .
    Being unaware of "mestakes" that you make and with no one nearby to help you out, means you have to figure out a lot. And this brings along that you have to learn by 'trial and error" (do they say it like this ??). Looking back at MY first year of clickertraining ... I can only see an unstructured trainer and a dog that likes to train :oops: . And I'm still learning every day.
    Just recently, while reading a book, I discovered a (for me) complete new and refreshing way to teach heelwork. With all these cool ideas I'm trying to spice up my heelwork and once again I'm making mestakes, but not as many as I used to. And that's the great thing about this. You learn/get better and you don't harm a dog with a "wrong click". It's not a yank from a choke chain. He'll get a bit confused, but that's it.
    I'll try to make that clip later on today, so you can see how "rapid fire" works for me. Because the timing and a good intervall in rewarding is important when you start. Some trainers say you need to reward at a rate of 20 treats/minute in the beginning, being every 3 seconds. Think about the "hard work" Ra Kismet has to do to get the treat at such an early phase. But everything will get clearer once you start training with all this info and new pointers in mind.
    Mutt, Dogster and MaryK like this.
  17. MaryK Honored Member

    Thank you, you've made me feel so much better. Yes, you're right, it is 'trial and error' when you're trying to learn without a teacher at your side. And you're right, if you never make a mistake, then you're not doing anything. I feel just like that an unstructured trainer with a dog who loves to train.:oops: But that is changing now, I'm learning and I LOVE to learn. I honestly believe that learning is so important, it keeps your mind active and is good all round for your well being, no matter what it is you're learning. With us, it's dog training:D

    I would love to become a professional dog trainer, working with dogs is just the very best thing, well along with dance which I don't do any more, and why I so want to do dancing with dogs as well. But I think I need to get my basic training down to a finer art before tackling doggy dancing;)

    Which book had the new way of teaching heelwork? I'm interested in that too, as Ra Kismet does do heel work at home and really seems to love it too. LOL to be honest, I think Ra Kismet loves training, using his brain/mind and working and apart from 'playing soccer' training is his favorite 'pastime':D Oh and errrh chasing Maeve one of my cats:eek:

    That's a load of my mind, knowing that I'm not doing any serious harm to Ra Kismet, just at times confusing him - and he does give me 'that look' at times - as if to say 'hey Mom what on earth do you want?" I can see a wrong click isn't as harmful as yanking (which I hate) and choking a dog half to death can do.

    I would appreciate the clip, as I am a little confused about the rapid fire treating, in fact, treating all round. What I have found is if I treat too quickly, Ra Kismet merely swallows the treat whole, which cannot be too good for him. Yes, good point, I hadn't thought of how hard Ra Kismet needs to work for that treat. I was trying to go on the 20 treats/minute but find it's not really working. I am so enjoying learning all you're teaching me, it's great, like having a teacher by my side:)(y)
  18. orpheum Well-Known Member

    Hey MaryK,
    I have been thinking and, in my opinion, there's no need to throw the last treat behind you. Since you reward frequently IN position and give a relase cue BEFORE throwing away the last treat, you can throw it where ever you want. You're dog always needs to find the position again. Teach your dog to go around you once he knows the position and then ask him to do a "peekaboo" when he's halfway to stop turning around.
    Remember I'm no pro in making clips on dogtraining (first time I do this) and I'm no pro dog trainer. So here's me trying to explain and show how I teach peekaboo and what you can use it for later on.


    Hope this helps you out a bit. This was the first time a trained copcop with Jack by the way. But he knows my way of working and is a very smart dog.
  19. MaryK Honored Member

    First, hope you are right better now:D

    Wow! Your video is AWESOME!:D(y) Thank you so much:D(y) I can really see very clearly where I have been going wrong and now how to correct my mistakes, so Ra Kismet doesn't think I've gone mad or worse!

    You've explained each step, clearly and concisely, thus making it VERY easy for me to follow and know exactly what to do.(y) Plus I now understand more on breaking everything down to 'baby steps', I've taken too big a step straight off, making it hard for Ra Kismet, instead of setting him up to succeed:(

    Also taking the original peekaboo further, into cop cop, backwards (something I've struggled with with Ra Kismet) and heel work, turning etc. Now I can train him, one step at a time, and as he's a smart little chap I'm certain we'll achieve success.



    I would never have thought of the foot position to commence learning cop cop, that makes so much sense, plus just moving the feet. Oh dear, poor Rakins, I was trying to get him to walk and not allowing for him to get used to just the 'feel' of my feet moving. And I didn't reward as I walked, or rather tried to walk, either:)

    Cannot wait to start training, though LOL it will have to be tomorrow, as it's a bit too late to start tonight. Had computer problems, or rather our ISP had some issues, which meant I couldn't get online until late.

    Your doggies are gorgeous, and work so well too, but then they have a very good trainer:D

    Will keep you posted and make a video of our progress. This is so exciting and your video is like having someone right alongside me, showing me how to train each step, which is how I learn best. Thank you so much:D(y) I have downloaded the video from YouTube, as my darned computer froze, or the server on this site froze, when I tried to download from D.T.A.
    That way I can have the video up while I'm training and not have to worry about my ISP having a another hissy fit!
  20. orpheum Well-Known Member

    I'll send you the bill for the copyright :ROFLMAO:

    My doggies are gorgeous, no discussion needed about that :ROFLMAO:
    About the good trainer part ... Not so sure about that yet, but we'll get there.

    Do keep me updated. Would love to hear about/see your progress.
    MaryK likes this.

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