What Kind Of "work" For The Dog

Discussion in 'General Dog Training' started by Ina, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. Dodge Well-Known Member

    Thank you,nice to know its not just my little stinker not wanting treats when out:D
    I ll have to see who I can use for the "Zip him up!" trick,my lot aint interested in helping me with training at all :ninja::(

  2. running_dog Honored Member

    Ha! You have discovered my 5% of training that is still basically super negative. Steady to sheep, and he is, once he was in full flight after a squirrel and a sheep leapt out of a bush in front of him AND HE DIDN"T SWITCH ignored the sheep and tried to follow the squirrel up a tree! That said he did chase an aeroplane this morning, DUNCE.

    Off lead on lead... Spaniel owners spend their time bawling, "Don't you have a lead for that thing!" Lurcher and collie owners ask, "But don't you ever let him off the lead?" It's like that fable about taking the donkey to market, impossible to please everybody. I think my problems are because I let Zac off too soon :) though he was already 5 months when I got him.

    And oh yes, I only used to able to use treats in winter when the cold made Zac ravenous. He's getting greedy now and they work all year MUCH more straightforward. Still have to use lots of games though (and happy dog training accents :ROFLMAO:).
    mewzard and Dodge like this.
  3. lyka_01 Well-Known Member

    that is quite a thought. i haven't thought my dog to do some household chores :)
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  4. abby_someone Well-Known Member

    I myself have wondered this. My Great Dane Lena was very dog aggressive. I could not for the life of me figure out how I could have caused it. I am not afraid of dogs, nor do I find them a threat in any way. I am glad that I am not the only one who has had to work with one of these issues in the face of being told that it was "my issue".
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //I myself have wondered this. My Great Dane Lena was very dog aggressive. I could not for the life of me figure out how I could have caused it. I am not afraid of dogs, nor do I find them a threat in any way. I am glad that I am not the only one who has had to work with one of these issues in the face of being told that it was "my issue". //

    Yes, i pre-apologize for thread derail here, but, all my other dogs were fine. What, suddenly, *i* displayed issues when i got this one dog? Sometimes, in a multi-dog household, 3 of the dogs are just fine, but ONE dog is dog-aggressive, what, only that one dog can detect "their owner has issues", but, the other 3 dogs are too dumb to notice all the owner's issues? rofl.:p
    I myself think dog-aggression comes in more than one form, there is the induced kind, like Michael Vick's dogs who were trained to be dog-aggresive, but were probably born 'normal'.
    95% of Vick's dogs were rehabilitated back to normal dogs, they were probably born normal, the dog-aggression was INDUCED upon these normal dogs.

    BUT
    i do believe, some dogs are BORN that way. I know, i know, evvvvvvveryone will disagree, we've all been taught/hypnotized, that dogs are all born perfect, THAT ALL DOGS ARE BORN WITH NO ISSUES already there, IMPOSSIBLE any issues could be in their brain's wiring.

    and any issue they have is result of human issues/mishandling/improper socialization/abuse/something!! We do not even question it, everyone "knows" this!!! It is "a fact" :rolleyes:that all dogs with issues have been mishandled in some way....riiiight.

    But, i myself, believe dogs are born with one of three personality types/brain designs/whatever.
    #1) The 'normal' dog
    #2) The shy dog
    #3) The dog-aggressive dog.

    that is my theory. Shy dogs, can be noticed at birth. IN the litter box, they can say, "This puppy here, ducks down, is very shy, creeps away." and that puppy, will always be shy. If you were to meet that dog, at age 1 or 2, without knowing a thing, you'd think, "This dog has been abused." but it wasn't. It was BORN that way. Shy dogs can be made somewhat better or worse, depending on how they are handled, but, they will always be shy.

    The dog-aggressive dog, is easily spotted to be dog-aggressive by an alert owner, by about 4 to 6 months old, and it is undeniable by age 9 months old. *IF* it shows up prior to that, it is either missed, put off to "a bad day", immaturity, play, lack of social skills, babyhood, or just not noticed.
    By age one, the owner of this dog is usually seeking help. People call to them, "Hey, you need Dog Whisperer!!" and the baffled ppl wonder what "they" did wrong to have a dog-aggressive dog, when all their other decades of dogs were all just fine!!! and since we are all told, if your dog is dog-agressive = it is our fault.
    THE NUMBER ONE REASON DOGS IN USA ARE PUT TO DEATH is dog-aggression, and/or people aggression. This far outnumbers even being put down for cancer or illness. It is THAT hard to cure, cuz it is wired into those particular dogs brains, imo.

    I currently do believe people-agression is taught, learned, a result of not being socialized, something, so far as i know right now, and ppl agression IS VERY highly curable. My own dog was also ppl=agressive, but, we cured him of that 100%.

    With this type of inborn dog-aggressive dog, it does not much matter how well you socialize it, how you handle it, it WILL be dog-aggressive. LIke type I diabetes, you can control it but not cure it. Like the dog behaviorist who wrote "Click to Calm", she did everything right, yet, her pup turned up to be dog-aggressive. Like the shy dog, you can make this dog somewhat better or worse, but, it will be an ongoing issue for dog's whole life.

    anyway, that is my two cents. I do not expect ANYONE to agree, especially not anyone who never actually lived with a dog-agressive dog, but please be adult, and attack my idea, but not me as a person.
    Dodge likes this.
  6. abby_someone Well-Known Member

    You have just described my dog. She was timid when I went to get her from the back yard breeder. I took her everywhere with me, and to puppy classes too. She was about 4-5 months old then. That was my first taste of what became a life long problem with dog aggression. I was not afraid of the husky she lunged at, in fact, I hadn't really even noticed it. I was not able to help her much in that area, I wish you better luck with yours.
    Dodge and tigerlily46514 like this.
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    thank you, yes, i have learned A LOT about dog-aggression. You name it, i've tried it.

    Many popular methods, i wasted sooooooo much time on (distraction, is not helpful at changing their inner attitudes, distraction can be used in emergencies, but nothing inside the dog is changed, at all). I now focus more on getting Buddy remain calm and to look directly AT the dog from Buddy's own comfort zone (not at me as i'd been taught) and remain calm, saving distraction as emergency last resort only.

    So far, the best thing i've found, is using dog language "calming signals". Nope, they do not work eveyr time. And they have to be employed prior to getting to close to oncoming 'enemy dog'. These are useless if Buddy is already in full blown reaction, we just leave the scene then, "Let's Go."
    Also, oddly, making him walk in perfect heel, for some reason, is very calming to Buddy, he reacts way less in a heel, than when free on the end of his extenda leash, or even off leash. who knew?

    Buddy is better, but, he will most likely never be 100% 'right'. But, he is better, he's come a long way, i've even got a few assorted miracles to report.:)
    He has a handful of doggie pals he enjoys playing with, and has made pals with some dogs he once loathed, but, he still reacts to *most* dogs. I've even broken his reactions down into 4 distinct reactions. I am professor of Buddyology!! ha ha!!
    but, he might not ever be 100% right, but, he is better. But we continue to work on it, one dog at a time.:D
    Dodge likes this.
  8. Ina Well-Known Member


    I am just wondering about on thing ... when someone has a dog that barks excessively putting the barking on command works quite well because you also have a command to make him stop barking. Wouldn't that work with agressive dogs too? Give a command to be aggressive so that you have a command to calm down aggression?
    Dodge and tigerlily46514 like this.
  9. sara Moderator

    Not in my experience. with dogs that are fear aggressive (aggression that is natural and not trained is fear aggression, a confident dog will have to be trained to be aggressive, a fearful dog can become aggressive without any outside help) Therefor it is a fear response to a stimulous, a "state of mind" if you will. You have to turn off the fear, before helping the aggression. With trained aggression, you also train an "off switch" similar to training the barking.
    Dodge and tigerlily46514 like this.
  10. Ina Well-Known Member

    I'm just very lucky that little Smokey doesn't have any of that.
    When he was only 3 months old another dog attacked him in the park - he got quite a fright but luckily 5 minutes later we came across a very friendly dog. Smokey was very cautious at first, but then had a fantastic playtime with his new friend. The positive experience outweighed the negative.
    Dodge and tigerlily46514 like this.
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Yes, Smokey is probably, (according to my two-cents theory, ha ha, born normal). The dogs who are born with wiring to be dog-aggressive, will be dog-aggressive, regardless of whether anyone attacked them or not.

    The dogs who are born normal, even if trained to become dog-aggressive, can be rehabbed back to normal, like Michael Vick's dogs. So Ina, your idea probably would work with 'normal' dogs who are trained to be dog-aggressive, but NOT with dogs who BORN THAT WAY.
    Like Police dogs, who are trained to attack, yes, the policeman also has a cue to get dog back to him, of course. I'm talking about dogs who are BORN with wiring to be dog-aggressive. So far as i know now, dogs are NOT born 'people-aggressive', so far as i understand now, THOSE dogs can be rehabbed.
    but DOG-AGGRESSION is whole other thing, and it comes in more than one form, there are dogs who are 'normal' but trained to be, or accidentally became, dog-aggressive<---THIS kind of dog-aggression can be rehab'd.
    cuz their brains are 'normal'.

    and there are dogs who are BORN dog-aggressive----- who WERE socialized well, treated well, no bad experience to 'explain' why they are that way, etc etc.

    but the dogs who born with brains wired to be dog-aggressive, will be that way. LIke i spent 4 paragraph trying to point out, these dogs ---it is NOT caused by some experience, it NOT the result of some event,
    it is NOT they were
    attacked/
    mishandled/
    not socialized enough
    /have humans with "inner issues"
    /had bad experience as a puppy
    /got bitten at a dog park/
    etc etc.............

    and like i said several times, these dog-aggressive dogs who were born that way, like the dogs who were born shy,
    can be made somewhat better
    or
    worse
    but their brain is designed that way, the wiring is in place from birth on.
    so like Type I diabetes, it might become controlled, but not cured.

    The shy-from-birth dog, will always struggle with shyness,
    and the dog-aggressive dog, who was born with that wiring in place, will always have that wiring in place.
    Dodge and abby_someone like this.
  12. sara Moderator

    I'm going to disagree with you slightly. I dont believe dogs are born dog aggressive. I think the dog aggression that is almost impossible to be rehabbed ties in with the shy personality. Dog aggression is a fear response in dogs that have a fearful personality to begin with. Poor socialization and training to be dog aggressive can be rehabbed, but pure fear is really, really hard... though it really can be fixed... slowly, over time, with positive training and confidence building.

    NOW there are dogs born with an aggressive personality, Cesar would call them "dominant" they are the top puppy in the pack, they take what they want, when they want... that can turn to aggression if not trained and socialized, but that's not a fearful dog. And that dog is easily trained out of aggression.

    Then there are the dogs bred for high prey drive, which is very, VERY easily turned to dog aggression, and that can be tough to overcome/rehab... but again, it can be done. The Vicktory dogs were most likely bred for that, and are being rehabbed successfully, with a few taking longer than the rest.
    Dodge likes this.
  13. sara Moderator

    Sorry Ina, I think we hijacked your thread pretty successfully! LOL
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //" I dont believe dogs are born dog aggressive"//

    of course you do not believe it, no one does.

    LIke i said, we alllllllll accept it as a fact, that the very notion is impossible, no one even questions it. But, how about the dog, in "Click to Calm", raised by a dog behavoirist, well socialized, who displayed dog-aggression in it's puppy times?
    how do you explain THAT dog then?

    I disagree with the aggression is a sign of an alpha. True alphas are not aggressive, they are confident. Dog-aggressive dogs are not usually confident.
    My buddy is NOT an alpha, AT ALL, yet, he is dog-aggressive.

    shy dogs and dog-aggressive dogs are NOT the same thing, Sara. NOpe.
    Shy dogs duck away from ppl, slinking away, are difficult to train, (some ppl here own actual, truly shy dogs).
    Dog-aggressive dogs do not duck away from ppl.

    RE: the rest of yoru remarks, Sara, i have tried to be very clear, on the difference between a dog who is TRAINED to be aggressive, or became aggressive through mistreatment,
    vs.
    the dog who is BORN dog-aggressive.
    why do you doubt a dog can be born dog-aggressive?
    do you also doubt the dogs who are noted to be shy, i mean excessively, uncontrollabley shy, in the litter box?
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    but, maybe i should just start new thread.??? since the topic had waivered by this here page 4, i didn't think we were still on topic anyway, but, i should start new thread.

    I knew this would be controversial, new idea, that no one has ever heard of, or even considered before,
    and new ideas, which have never ever been questioned,

    that go against evvvvvvverything you've ever been told before,

    are often "controversial."
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

  17. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"The Vicktory dogs were most likely bred for that, and are being rehabbed successfully, with a few taking longer than the rest."//

    That is your interpretation of the results,
    mine is,
    most of the Vick dogs, were born with normal brains, and were trained to be, and rewarded for dog-agression.
    LIke i've said, there is more than one form of dog-aggressive dogs.

    But, the bulk of those dogs had 'normal' brains, and the bulk of them, when removed from the ring, rehabbed quite nicely,
    and fairly rapidly
    returned to being 'normal' dogs, since they had brains that were wired to be normal. They were not 'true, born-that-way, dog-aggressive dogs".

    the remainder, who years and years later, are still dog agressive, were probably born that way, and will always be dog-aggressive. Ten years from now, 15 years from now, those 5% of the Vick dogs, will STILL be dog-aggressive, betcha.

    I also think your prey drive thing can become dog-agression is kinda weak, but, we who love dogs have trouble accepting the notion that a dog could be born with personality flaws, like the INHERENTLY shy dog, or the inherently dog-aggressive dog.

    tons of lovely greyhounds, with super strong prey drive, but not dog-aggressive.

    some dog-aggressive dogs have weak prey-drives. (i belong to online group for ppl working with dog-aggression)
    that is two different things, prey -drive and dog-agression.

    also, interesting to note, a dog-aggressive dog can be born to parents who do not display it, as can the inherently shy dog. I met a guy online, whose confident outgoing dog always whelped some of the litter shy dogs. always. Nio matter what bitch his dog was mated to, always, some shy ones in that litter.
    Yet, the father dog himself never ever displayed shyness.
  18. sara Moderator

    I gave 3 examples why I believe dogs become naturally dog aggressive, and some examples of dogs who become dog aggressive. No prey drive is NOT dog aggression, I certainly know that, but they EASILY become dog aggressive, either made by people (poor socialization, training and neglect) or made by some event (like an attack)

    A confident dog can be made to be dog aggressive as well, with training, neglect, poor socialization, or an event.

    These 2 examples I used are dogs who aren't naturally dog aggressive, and can be rehabbed, and yes, Pit Bulls bred for fighting, have been bred for a high prey drive, and have been trained to turn that onto dogs. And yes, many, MANY greyhounds are dog aggressive, with small dogs anyway. There's a rescue here in town who rescue grey's off the track... these dogs always have to be muzzled around dogs, at least fresh off the track, until they've been rehabbed.

    I believe that the dogs who become dog agreesive naturally, the ones that just ARE, are fearful. they're the ones that were born with fear ingrained into them, the truly shy dogs (and yes, I believe dogs are born truly shy, nervous and/or fearful.

    Then you look at a breed like the Irish Terrier, who are, more often than not, Dog aggressive. They are very confident dogs, with a high prey drive and extreme gameness. They are very intelligent, protective and loyal, all which translates to a dog that easily becomes dog aggressive. they can be kept perfectly normal with other dogs, but they always test other dogs, and fire up at the slightest provocation.

    Funny story about Oliver and an IT. Oliver is extremely dog aggressive with strange dogs. we met an IT at a pet store awhile back. she was also dog aggressive, but they took one look at eachother and though "FRIEND!!!" and the game was on! I dont know what signals they gave eachother that negated the fear, but they seemed to know they were both afraid, and one would not hurt the other... it was wonderful to watch.

    But I'm not believeing that all dog aggressive dogs are made that way by people, no, absolutely not. And if you're theory is correct, than I've never met a dog that was born that way. there's always been a trigger with every dog I've met, either a personality that I've explained, or an event.
  19. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

  20. Isi Havanese Active Member

    :(OMG I have never seen an episode Of Cesar like that with a shock collar!? :mad::X3::eek: Anyways I wanted to point out coming late in the thread that this seems to bring up a bigger picture, Know your dogs, breed or if you don't know for for sure because they are the best breed of all "TRUE 100% PUREBRED MUTT";) get know them what drives them, their size, their instincts and work with that. I have a German Shepherd and often I feel like I don't give him a job.:unsure:I have looked at the back packs but then I worry about using extra weight while walking on a breed prone to hip dysplasia and being overweight(same as carrying too much weight ;)) would put my guy at risk for developing this horrible problem. I had a lab with severe hip dysplasia she was born obese and I believe that other than the genetics her weight had to contribute to its severity. (She was put on every diet you can think of but, much like myself when you can't move you find it really hard to shed the pounds!) So I have been blessed with a very healthy GSD why risk it to add this job of carrying weight. My toy breed, a 14 week Havenese has found a job for sure. She does trick after trick and is so silly all the time! This is her job.:) I would imagine that your toy dog is much the same as my toy breed, the tricks are the job.
    Both of my dogs retrieve a tennis ball like their is no tomorrow and neither are retrievers. I didn't train either of them I just throw the ball then say give it to mommy, and they do. They like to please me,:unsure: I guess. I deserve it too!:mad: If you knew my two teenagers that don't care to please me with anything they do although...they do know a lot of tricks when I think of it :sneaky::X3:then you would no why I say that. LOL:LOL::ROFLMAO:

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