Warning - Not Totally Dog Related But Animal Cruelty

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by MaryK, May 14, 2013.

  1. MaryK Honored Member

    Just recently I started to sell Avon as a rep, with a view to building a home based business. As I had previously sold Avon some time back, I did not check to ensure that they were still cruelty free, assuming (dangerous grounds I know) that Avon's products were still listed on PETA and other such sites as a 'NOT' tested on animals. This has changed and they are now listed under the companies which DO allow animal testing on PETA and other such sites.

    It therefore can as a most unpleasant shock, when phoning a potentially new customer given to me by my superior, to find that she had been an Avon Customer but now would no longer purchase Avon products due to the fact that they were tested on animals.

    Shaken and alarmed, my partner and I googled, and found to our horror that yes Avon, whilst not strictly testing on animals themselves, did 'when it was the law of the country' allow their products to be tested on animals.

    The main country in question is China - where it is MANDATORY that any products i.e. skin care, shampoo, perfume, make up etc. MUST first be tested on animals before it is allowed to be sold in China.

    On ringing my District Sales Manager, I was told that 'Avon do not test on animals and I could catagorically and confidently tell my customer this fact! And that she, along with other senior personnel, had received a directive from Avon to this fact. She also referred me to the official Avon site for further 'proof'. And went into very lengthy detail about how Avon would be breaking the law etc. if they claimed to 'not test on animals', further, that all their training material stated clearly that they did not test on animals.

    Both my partner and I went to the site and found, not surprisingly, quite a good deal about how and with whom Avon worked for the benefit of not only animals but women and cancer patients. All very nice and guaranteed to give you a 'nice warm fuzzy feeling' and stop you reading further through the very lengthy site. It prints out to three A4 pages.

    However if you DID read through and take the trouble to analyze what they say further down in answer to the F.A.Q. section regarding Animal Testing, it's plain that whilst not 'requesting' (their word) animals testing they do 'within the laws of the country' (or similar wording I do not have it in front of me right now) allow animal testing. No direct mention is made of specific countries, Avon feels this wouldn't be quite ethical (my words) but nevertheless, for a company which trumpets loud and lustily about how much it cares for the treatment of animals, to allow their products to be sold in a country where animal testing is MANDATORY is to me, totally UNETHICAL! And to further support this they claim that to 'abandon' (their word) these countries wouldn't help, rather it's best to work 'from within' to change the laws.

    As China is one of Avon's biggest markets, and it's well known that the Asian markets, especially China, are desperate to sell Euorpean/USA goods to their ever growing middle class/ wealthy public, then surely I am not wrong in thinking that, rather than trade and thereby submit to their heinous Law, it would be better to refuse, clearly stating why, thereby hitting them were it hurts most 'in the hip pocket'.

    Avon have good spin doctors and to me I do not care where it is happening, but if an animal is being abused and mistreated for the sake of profit (or any other reason) then no matter how 'warm and fuzzy' the number of awards a company has won for it's 'good deeds' may appear, morally and ethically it is still wrong to sell in a market which states quite clearly that any company wishing to do so is legally obligated to have all products on tested on animals. By agreeing to this Law, in my opinion, that company is perpetuating the crime of testing on animals.


    I have, needless to say, resigned from Avon and am now winding up my Avon business.

    I would be very interested to know if there are others who have either bought or sold Avon products and been told that they do not test on Animals. And further what the thoughts of members on this forum are with regards to a company (and Avon are NOT alone in this matter) who, whilst claiming to not test on animals per se, are in fact selling their products in countries which, in the case of China, DO have a law which stipulates that ALL consumer products MUST be tested first on animals before a license in granted for the sale of same.
    brodys_mom likes this.

  2. brody_smom Experienced Member

    I remember a few weeks back when you mentioned that you were selling Avon. I thought at the time, "She should be selling Mary Kay Cosmetics". :p I just did a search on MK's animal testing policy, and it is exactly the same as Avon. They don't do the testing themselves, but it is done on their products by the Chinese government before they can be sold there.
    http://forcechange.com/61540/urge-mary-kay-cosmetics-to-resume-ban-on-animal-testing/
    Unfortunate, but this is the way of the global market. Amway has a great line of cosmetics, far superior to either Avon or Amway, but they have the same problem. They say they are working with the Chinese government to find other ways of testing certain products (all other countries have, why not them?)
    It looks like you are going to have to find a less-global company to start your business. Or steer away from cosmetics altogether, as it seems like this is a trend that major companies can't avoid if they want the Asian market.
    MaryK likes this.
  3. southerngirl Honored Member

    lol!!!:ROFLMAO:
    brodys_mom and MaryK like this.
  4. MaryK Honored Member

    Yes I checked Mark K too and found they're the same as Avon. Also that Uncaged, a U.K. organization actually took Avon to court and was successful in having the 'not tested on animals' removed from Avon's U.K. website, brochures etc. along with Avon receiving a whopping fine.

    I'm looking into an alternative business. Hard to find one with such a good structure/compensation as Avon. But I will find something, somewhere as 'one door shuts another one opens'.
    brodys_mom likes this.
  5. MaryK Honored Member

    You wretch Southerngirl, I've had to put up with that before:ROFLMAO: In fact I was once told I couldn't use Mary K as a sig because it was the same as the cosmetic company:p:ROFLMAO:
    southerngirl and brodys_mom like this.
  6. brody_smom Experienced Member

    It's hard to fault the cosmetic companies. No one can really control what the customer does with their product once it has been purchased. Their only option would be not to sell to China at all, which, as we all know, is such a huge market. Maybe if the global community of cosmetic manufacturers banded together and refused to sell their products in China until animal testing was banned, they could make an impact. If the growing middle class there is demanding North American and European quality products, the government would have to change their policy.
    MaryK likes this.
  7. MaryK Honored Member

    I agree, if ALL the major companies banded together, China sure would change their draconian law! They sure are desperate there for USA/European commodities.

    No but what the company allows to be done with their product is the problem. Avon pays a company to test the products on animals BEFORE they are allowed to sell them on the Chinese market. The law in China is that ALL consumer products, such as skin care etc. MUST be tested on animals, so Avon to keep it's own hands 'clean' pays a company to do the testing, double standards isn't the word for this despicable practice.
    brodys_mom likes this.
  8. threenorns Well-Known Member

    it's not just China - until very recently, France also had mandatory animal testing laws.

    and that's the problem: China doesn't give a rat's ass what Avon or any other company thinks. why would they, when they're probably manufacturing 80% of the finished product? they'll just shrug and next thing you know, "Chinavon" is born.
    MaryK likes this.
  9. MaryK Honored Member

    Sadly all too true and many other countries outside the EU still test on animals. As my partner said regarding Avon, they could close down elsewhere, the number of clients/reps lost would be insignificant, and just continue in China where the industry as a whole is worth Ten Billion Dollars. Corporate Greed has overcome ethics! And they are still pestering me to continue, using the line' Avon doesn't test' and 'we're working within the country to make changes' yes like China is going to worry about that now they have their business. Sure they don't test on animals per se but they pay huge sums of money to others to do their dirty work. Worse than double standards! For a list of companies, and there are quite a few, who DO NOT test on animals see PETA, they list them all.

    You're right, most of Avon's products are manufactured in China. Not entirely sure if the law covers products made in China, but it is MANDATORY for all products SOLD in China and Avon is selling in China. I got up their Chinese website and, not surprisingly, couldn't get the translation app to work, makes me wonder.

    Avon was taken to court by Uncaged in the U.K. and Uncaged won the case! Now Avon has be forced by U.K. law to remove all wording regarding 'not tested on animals'. However, as we both know, with the huge Chinese market open to them, they will not care, neither will the whooping fine worry them unduly.
    brodys_mom likes this.
  10. threenorns Well-Known Member

    ooh, the last thing i would call PETA is ethical and i would never use them as a resource. look up their track record on euthanasia.
    MaryK likes this.
  11. southerngirl Honored Member

    I would Not use PETA for information. I read that they believe that humans breeding animals into dogs and cats are cruel because we made them helpless. And that all dogs and cats should be spayed and neutered so that they will eventually die off. I've also read that some of there so called rescues are abusive to their animals and kill them. And a lot of other bad things about PETA. Now I could have read information that was wrong, but I've heard a lot of bad things about them.
    MaryK, threenorns and brodys_mom like this.
  12. brody_smom Experienced Member

    They also say things like " animals should never be killed for food". What do they think happens in the wild? Some animals are almost exclusively carnivorous, and their prey endures some serious suffering. Not that I am an advocate for causing pain if it isn't necessary, but they tend to act like animals have more rights than people, and that animlas are morally superior to us.
    MaryK and threenorns like this.
  13. southerngirl Honored Member

    Plus if they weren't killed for food they would become over populated and die from starvation because there wouldn't be enough food for all of them. Such as deer.
    brodys_mom, MaryK and threenorns like this.
  14. threenorns Well-Known Member

    warning: graphic

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html
    http://www.examiner.com/article/ethical-peta-killed-1-647-cats-and-dogs-2012-which-side-are-you-on
    i can't find it at the moment, but there is an article in which ingrid newkirk, the one who runs PETA, describes deliberately going into the shelter in which she worked way early, 4 or 5am, before anybody else showed up, and just grabbing dogs and cats out of cages and euthanizing them as fast as she could.

    i'm not kidding: these ppl are SICK.
    MaryK likes this.
  15. MaryK Honored Member

    Wow! Thank you everyone, I have always felt PETA was a responsible organizations. I know they are against killing animals for any reason, and understand about the over population problems, though in the Cairngorms in Scotland the problem came about due to the Victorians killing off all the wolves, which at that time kept the deer populations down. However, that Ingrid Newkirk has actually gone into shelters and euthanized dogs and cats is appalling!!!!!!!! I am so shocked, and will watch points about PETA from now on.
    brodys_mom likes this.
  16. threenorns Well-Known Member

    PETA is not against killing animals - they're all for killing animals that have been domesticated. if they had their way, every "slave" animal (which is how they refer to cats, dogs, cows, sheep, etc) would be eradicated since they cannot be returned to a "natural" life.

    the only concession i will make is that it's a sad reality that we're not going to be able to adopt our way out of the current pet overpopulation mess - but like i said, these ppl are way off the hook and, as far as i'm concerned, qualify as a hate group.
    MaryK, brodys_mom and southerngirl like this.
  17. MaryK Honored Member

    I did some checking myself, NOT that I dis-trust anything anyone has said on this forum, but because I always check out the facts myself, LOL just my way. I was horrified to see what PETA has been doing, the statistics on the number of animals who were 'adoptable' and they had euthanized, and the way they went about it too, was too shocking to credit.

    Personally my thoughts are, that they started out with all good intentions, but have since become fanatically and that's fatal to any cause. I agree Threenorns, we sadly are not going to be able to adopt our way out of the current over population, and yes, spaying/neutering domestic animals is about the only solution. However, to 'eradicate' all 'slave' animals is inhuman!!!! What about the search/rescue dogs for one thing and many other service dogs like care dogs, hearing dogs, seeing eye dogs the list is endless? I am totally horrified and will certainly NOT promote PETA or donate again.

    Thank you all for putting me to rights, really appreciate all your comments.(y)
    threenorns and brodys_mom like this.
  18. brody_smom Experienced Member

    It's always sad when an organization that starts out with the best of intentions becomes corrupted. It is the way with humans, I'm afraid. What starts out as a lone voice crying out for justice gains a following, then attention from the media. Celebrities get involved and suddenly they have clout. Then that turns to influence, then license. As citizens and consumers we need to be vigilant and never follow blindly. Tough to do, though.
    threenorns and MaryK like this.
  19. MaryK Honored Member

    Sadly all too true Brody's Mom. And now, to my horror, I have just been reading about what the RSPCA are doing to a wonderful Lady and NO KILL Shelter, the very Shelter Ra Kismet came from, it's horrendous I've been in tears all morning. Never will I donate again to the RSPCA, who have literally double figure millions in their coffers, euthanize perfectly healthy dogs and cats, remove animals from a No Kill shelter and euthanize them just because they are old, or in one case, have only three legs, one was removed at a huge cost to this Shelter, after the former owner decided to 'walk his dog while driving his car' and ran over the poor animal. She was well, happy and looking for her 'furever' home when the RSPCA called, unannounced, took her and other older dogs, plus a kitten just into the shelter, away. Three of the dogs have been euthanized because they were older dogs, one was blind but SO HAPPY, one as mention, living well with just three legs and waiting for her furever home and one was just plain elderly. The wonderful lady who runs this Shelter is devastated and now faces six criminal charges!!!!!!! An Independent Politician is working for her http://www.markmaldridge.com/MOOROOK-ANIMAL-SHELTER-UPDATE.html but nothing can give those wonderful dogs back their happy, healthy lives.
    threenorns and brodys_mom like this.
  20. brody_smom Experienced Member

    That's so sad. I hate it when I hear about things like that... the small operation just trying to do whatever they can to make a difference, end up being shut down over politics. It's no wonder people hesitate to get involved and try to help anyone.
    threenorns likes this.

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