Walking Trouble

Discussion in 'Obedience Training' started by lucy97, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. lucy97 New Member

    I have a dog that can learn lots of tricks except learn how to walk. She pulls and pulls. It hurts my arm. If you have a way to teach a dog to walk please let me know.:dogbiggrin:

  2. snooks Experienced Member

    I'm in a rush this am to type out training tips on LLW (loose leash walking) will fill in later if no one does. Here's a copy from a recent post of mine on head harnesses tho. quickie. Don't use them without watching the videos tho. :dognowink:

    Have you tried a head harness like a Halti or Gentle leader? This is a positive way to stop the pulling without hurting your dog. I'm a positive trainer and I used Halti's for a while on both my dogs, some people always use them, some don't. Very important you watch the videos to positively desensitize your dogs to the head harness since it's a new thing for them you don't want them to see it negatively.

    Great videos on ARBI's site on this. My dogs both clearly preferred the Halti but depending on your dogs muzzle shape the Gentle leader may be better. It's vital they be properly fitted and the videos explain that too. Go to http://abrionline.org/videos.php and page down and look for the titles below-the subjects may not all be your issue but they are great on learning how to use the halter properly and there are two on the easy walk harness which also might help with pulling.

    Using a gentle leader for pulling on a leash
    conditioning an emotional response
    working with on leash aggression
    helping a student with ms
    two videos on the easy walk harness
  3. fickla Experienced Member

    I think there' a lot written on this already, so I would a search for tips!

    But basically there are 2 sides to LLW: 1. you have to reward the dog for walking on a loose leash and 2. you have to communicate to your dog that pulling no longer works to getting what he wants.

    For #1, I use a clicker and treats and am constantly popping in treats for every second of a loose leash. I gradually walk longer and longer before treating my dog. You need to start in a place without distractions (your living room) and work your way up (to empty parking lot to low activity streets to petsmart).

    For #2, I generally use one of three strategies (but hopefully you're so good at rewarding a loose leash and working in low distractions that she won't be pulling that much!)
    a. Penalty yards. As soon as the dog pulls you stop and back up until she becomes focused on you, or stops wanting to go forward, and then immediately go forward again. This tells her that if she really wants what is ahead of her, then pulling causes us to move farther away.
    b. 180 degrees. As soon as she pulls, you immediately turn around and walk the opposite direction. It doesn't really matter where you're going, but you're telling her that as soon as you pull we no longer go that way and now you're last. The benefit of this method is that it enables you to click and treat as she catches up to you in your new direction.
    c. be a tree. As soon as she pulls, you stop and be a tree. MAny people don't move until the dog makes eye contact with you, I generally just stop for a couple seconds.

    The key is really spending lots of time on #1-rewarding a loose leash, and doing one of the three pulling strategies as SOON as your dog pulls. don't let them pull you for 5ft before stopping. Even if you are in a hurry you can't let them pull. It's a lot of work, but it's worth it to be consistent.
    And like Snooks suggested, a head harness like the gentle leader can help a lot, or the easy walk antipulling harness. I generally prefer only using them though when I don't have time to train as I want my dogs to learn to walk great regardless of what they are wearing. You may want to start with a gentle leader and then wean her off as she's understanding your new rules.
  4. snooks Experienced Member

    Searching is a better idea than us reiterating. Also check out the silky leash positive reinforcement method.

    And the balance leash method both from dogstar.

    I start with luring then clicking and treating keeping the rate of reinforcement very high at first 5 seconds or less at first. I click any loose leash behavior and stop and start and change directions a lot so the dog has to be thinking to keep up and ponder what is getting the treats delivered.
  5. capo400 New Member

    I created something that does not allow a dog to walk in front of you . I have a lab that I struggled to walk everyday . I took him for a long walk with him connected to the device . It took a long walk but he stopped trying to get ahead of me . He is now a lot easier to walk and I even go roller blading with him . I know this idea works, I just wonder if there is a market for it .
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    CApo, i can not picture this device,:msniwonder: you should post a picture of it?

    OFF TOPIC, but, what i do is this:

    I took one of my guy's belts, and slip the extenda leash over it, and put that on over my coat.
    This way, i can swing both my arms evenly when i power walk:msnohyes:.

    And, it prevents my wrist from getting yanked on:msncry: if Buddy sees a bunny or squirrel, etc. As often as i walk my dog, a few good hard sudden yanks on a wrist or elbow my age, begins to add up to a problem.:msnsick:
    Also, if i were to fall down on the ice,(it's happened) my dog won't be walking around off leash, maybe getting hit or lost, who knows, but, he is now tied to me.
    but now, Buddy is attached to my belt. He still is not :dognowink:allowed:dognowink: to pull,:dognowink: at all, though, and he knows that now.

    I don't care if he walks in front of me,
    behind me,
    so long he does not pull.
    but, that is just me.
    And, we are lucky enough to live on outskirts of town, in a suberb with lots of woods, not like, where there are tons of crowds to walk through, well, those ppl do have to keep dog in a heel. Is whole other ballgame then. Or, like Capo says, rollerblading, would be whole other situatioin. But for me, just walking along quiet streets, i don't care if my dog is in front or behind. Ha, Buddy knows EGGGGZACTLY how long his leash is, too. Ha ha.

    If i want him to heel, i can get him to heel, (okay, usually:msngiggle:) but, walking in a heel is not necessary to me, i only use that for certain situations, like if a car is going by, or we are crossing a street, then i release him again to go explore while i walk along.

    My interest is in having Buddy have as much excercize and exploring as he can pack in on a walk, i could care less who is in front-------so long as he does not pull!!!

    It took a while, but, Buddy now understands what "NO PULL" means. IF he pulls, i become a tree. NO fwd movement, or, i change directions.

    PRIOR TO EACH WALK, I TAKE BUDDY INTO OUR FENCED BACKYARD, AND RUN HIM AROUND LIKE CRAZY, JUST MAKE HIM RUN FULL SPEED, FOR MANY MINUTES, AND THEN AGAIN, to blow off some energy prior to walk. So he begins walks half tired,:dogsleep: ah ha!! this helps a lot for my dog anyway!!!!!!!
  7. capo400 New Member

    Here is a picture . I only used this once on a long walk until he gave up trying to get in front of me . I dont make him heel on walks . But he doesnt pull anymore . Now my wife can walk both of our labs together .
  8. rouen Experienced Member

    I would recommend not using a choke chain with that capo, you cannot use it properly with that.
    tigerlilly, I use heavy duty carabiners on my belt when I take Dingo out on the bike. Easy way to connect a leash to a belt, And perfect if you need quick on/off.
  9. tx_cowgirl Honored Member

    Lol...a word of caution.
    I too used to always use my belt. With my dogs it worked great; I knew they would never tug the tiniest bit anyway so it was never a problem. Then I did it with a dog I was working with who was doing awesome, I mean PERFECT with his leash training, and I trusted him too much too soon, lol. Tied him to my belt, with one hand cautiously holding it so that if he did pull, I would catch it before he yanked my belt loop off. Well, I didn't catch it before he yanked......ripped my pants down to the knee, and there I was flashing the whole neighborhood with this goofy dog looking at me like, "Hey, what'd you stop for?" LOL.
    So just be sure you use that with a dog that is FIRMLY settled into his/her leash training. ^^; Don't trust your dog too much if you know there's a chance of him/her taking off at all. In my case, it was a trained bird dog who was just doing exactly as he'd been trained, so it was ENTIRELY my fault and incredibly stupid on my part. A lesson learned. You can imagine the embarassing conversation walking back to the dog's owner's house and telling them I'd see them tomorrow for another lesson. :dogblush:
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    (googles carabineers...) OH, i like that idea. seems a good idea. Thanks!!

    And Tx==========i remember that story, too funny!! ONe of my favorite dog training stories of all time, ever!!!!!!! ROFL!!!:ROFLMAO:
    could have made Funniest Videos
    if anyone had a camera!!

    but, laffin aside, :msngiggle:TX MAKES A REAL REALLY GOOD POINT THERE!!!

    I don't hook Bud onto my belt loop, but slip the extenda leash over my belt, but, i like the carabineers idea. I actually do unhook him at his collar for parts of his walk anyway, in SAFE areas, like in the woods, or on streets where there is no traffic, if it is NOT "bunny hour", etc, and practice his recall. Buddy has always walked at least half his walk off leash, with only 1 or 2 regrets in 2 years. And one of those was my fault, the other was a suprise chihuahua sneaking up behind Buddy...sigh. Buddy loathes chihuahuas:dogmad:...triggers his prey thing, even worse than bunnies, cats, or squirrels do..........i don't think he knows they are dogs, too. (not sure.):msniwonder: but, we're working on it, with a few assorted miracles to report.

    But, so long as i have treats, and he KNOWS when i have treats,:dogtongue2: his recall is about 98%.:msngrin: I only give treat about every other time, but, he knows if there is no treats on hand, and his recall goes down to about 70%, :msnwink:but, we're working on that....

    And yeah, i agree, no choke chains!! :dognowink:shiver! why?? I don't like choke chains with ANY leash, especially not with that inflexible thing.

    Cabo, why the choke chain? Maybe whatever reason you are using that choke chain, someone here can help you find a better option.

    Is the choke chain so the dog won't pull?? Is that it? Sadly, dogs on choke chains can and will still pull. The dog's lil tiny delicate thyroid gland is right there, and was never designed to withstand however many pounds of pressure that happen when the dog does pull.
    THYROID MEDS, and all the lab tests to keep them titrated, :msnsick:ARE NOT CHEAP. There's just 1 of many good reasons right there to lose that choke chain.

    Training a dog not to pull is better than strangling the dog many times a day. for real. It took me a while, too, to get Buddy to understand not to pull. I did a few things wrong at first, and also had a saboteur in my efforts, ha ha, but, we finally got it right, and Buddy understood!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! But, it is time well invested.

    But, those choke collars, well, so many people don't realize, it harms the dog, they mean well, they really do, probably all their family uses choke chains, or maybe even some trainer told them it was good idea, and so they just do not know that is not a good idea.

    That said, it is a very inventive and creative thing you have built there! :msnhugegrin: CLEVER!!!
    And you look young, wow, i'm trying to imagine all the creative things you will create during your life!!!! WOW!
  11. capo400 New Member

    He is fine . Its not like i am actually choking him . Like I said "I only used this device on him once" and now we are both happier on walks . I dont think I would have ever attempted to take him out on rollerblades and he now gets to drain all of his energy and is a much more well behaved dog . I think anyone out there who has a dog that pulls knows that neither the dog or the owner enjoys walks . So I would think that anything that helps would be appreciated . Have you seen the other things that people try ? Spike collars that dig in their necks and collars that go over their noses . A chain can be added to the device so the dog has a little more slack . I think it actually teaches them more that you are the leader than it teaches them to walk behind .
    It will not let me post a link . But if you add www to the line below . You can see video of jack rollerblading with me .
  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Darn,:msntongue: i could not use the link, i will keep trying. I too, find links difficult to add in here. Darn, i bet it is a cute video.

    Capo asks:

    //"So I would think that anything that helps would be appreciated . Have you seen the other things that people try ? Spike collars that dig in their necks and collars that go over their noses ."//

    I think you are pointing at spike collars as 'worse than choke chains' there, right? :msniwonder: Is that what you meant? I hope?

    Choke chains DO choke, :dogtongue:(wear it for a while, and have someone else hold the other end while you look around at things, do not stare at the person holding the other end, just walk around the way a dog would, OUCH! *gasp* )

    and, i agree with you, Capo, that spike collars are nasty, too. I know, you are right, Capo, there are people who use these things, but, this is NOT the way to go. I am glad you do not use spike collars, whew!

    Now the other thing you mention, "collars that go over their noses", i think you mean Halti-collars? Or, "Gentle Leaders" collars???

    Well, now--------------THOSE are actually helpful. :msnohyes: and NOT cruel. :msngrin: It does take the dog a while to get used to it, but, those Halti's are worth a try. I'm not sure Halti or GL collars would be ideal for a fast paced rollerblading or biking, cuz, you are supposed to check the placement now and then, not sure.

    Capo says:
    //" A chain can be added to the device so the dog has a little more slack . I think it actually teaches them more that you are the leader than it teaches them to walk behind ."//

    I am not entirely sure what you mean there, but, there are some threads around here about teaching a dog to heel, if that is what you want, and teaching a dog to not pull, if that is what you want. EVEN THIS THREAD HERE, IF YOU SCROLL UP AND READ EARLIEST REPLIES, has some great advice on that.:msnohyes:

    If you are having problems, post your question here, someone smarter than me will be by to help you, but, reading the advice above might help, if your dog IS pulling. Like i said, i had a little bit of trouble teaching that one, too!!:msngiggle:
  13. capo400 New Member

    A dog like mine will get out of a regular collar . They turn with their head facing you and pull it over their ears . I would rather play it safe and not have him be able to get loose and get hit by a car or get in a fight with another dog . To get to the site of him woth me on roller blades put www(dot) in front of youtube.com/watch?v=ztEWOXsE7_4 in your browser .
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"A dog like mine will get out of a regular collar . They turn with their head facing you and pull it over their ears "//
    Your dog will not easily get out of a "Gentle Leader" head collar, but, like i said, i don't think GLs are great idea for fast moving things like you do, like rollerblading and biking....(my dog would LOVE you!!)

    There are dogs who do get out of regular collars!! But, rather than a choke chain, or spike collar, consider getting a HARNESS. A harness is awesome way to walk OR RUN a dog, NO PRESSURE on delicate throat area, nor on the thyroid gland, no squeezing off their windpipes, no sensation they are gagging or choking, and you can feel secure, your dog is not going to escape his collar, and you also have more control of what direction your dog is going towards.:msnohyes:

    mine is something like this,

    with an option to connect leash to FRONT of harness, which totally makes Buddy go where i go, ha ha!! My dog is not an escape artist, but I like to use this when i am taking Buddy somewhere where he will be around other dogs, cuz he has issues that we are working on. Using a harness gives me more control about which direction Buddy will go----- IF leash is clipped onto the FRONT of the harness. If Buddy tries to turn back towards enemy-dog,:dogmad: well, he is automatically re-directed back to me, whether he wants to be, or not!!:msngiggle:

    If you are new to harnesses, many have websites that have videos to watch on how to fit it properly, and some pet stores have ppl who can fit it onto your dog right there in the store. FIT MATTERS on harnesses, so you don't accidentally like, rub their armpits raw ,etc.
    Some harnesses come in styles and colors, even "camo" etc.
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Is this your video, Capo???

    ha ha, i can not embed videos, either, but, i am techno-challendged..

    EDIT: ooh ooh!! i did it !! i did it!!! yay for me!! You insert the embed code in between the (media) thingies after you click on the blue M for 'media' there.

    i am thinking Jack would feel better in a harness, or anything besides choke collar.:dogtongue:AND you'd have more control about which direction cute Jack heads off to...

    Lol, you do same thing as i do sometimes, you yell, "NO NO NO" but, not specific. Sometimes the dog does not know "No what?:doghuh: no running? no sniffing the fire hydrant? no peeing? no running on the grass? no what?"

    You might wanna teach "come on" or "Forward" or something, maybe??? as a cue to continue forward with you,

    OR "Leave it". "LEAVE IT" (ignore whatever) is such a good thing for any dog to understand, useful in so many situations. BUT WHAT A CUTE DOG, :msnohyes:AND I BET HE LOVES GETTING TO GO FAST LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    EDIT: I WONDER WONDER WHAT HAPPENS, CAPO, IF YOU USE JUST NORMAL 6 FT OR 8FT LEASH, INSTEAD OF EXTENDA LEASH???? Or, just lock the extenda leash, and make a mark on leash so you use same length each time-----locking it at the length you want Jack to be next to you............
    I wonder, if Jack would quickly get to know just exactly how long his leash is, and run along beside you with less side trips????

    ALSO, I AM SO SO IMPRESSED WITH YOUR CO-ORDINATION!!! YOu rollerblade, and hold a dog leash, and film it, all at same time!! WOW.
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Now that i've seen the video, your pipe device is very very clever, and i can now see how it could be useful, for people as co-ordinated as you are (me, i'd end up hurting either me or my dog!!:msngiggle:if *i* fell using that thing, i'd hit one of us for sure! Mine would have to be padded or foam covered, at the least!!)

    But for co-ordinated people like you, it might be a handy thing after all!
    if you just removed the choke collar off of it

    and replace that with a harness. (or regular collars for non-escaping dogs.)

  17. capo400 New Member

    Thanks for the input everyone . I didnt know that "choke" chains were such a hot topic. I do know the device helped my dog in one "lesson" and I struggled for years walking jack and my other lab everyday . I dont know if I am going to pursue a patent on the idea, there is a patent for something similar . But it was from 1985 and it didnt describe how to use it . I would like to find someone who has a problem and see if it helps .
  18. rouen Experienced Member

    Prong collars are actually less dangerous as they apply even pressure around the dogs neck, however like choke chains they are often misused and aversive.
    Head halter type collars are, like front clipping harnesses, a management tool, they may be aversive to some dogs, but they are not meant to be jerked, like choke chains and prong collars.
    The tools and training techniques you use depend entirely on what kind of relationship you want with your dog.
  19. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    RE: the patent, Capo, so long as your product is 10% different than a previously patented product, you can also get a patent. Who knows ------you might end up a millionaire!!!
    Including instructions would be 10% different, even color changes are often seen as 10% different, and material differences are 10% different.

    So you could still patent your idea, which i do think might help some people, so long as you lose the choke chain. Those kind of collars do turn off :msneek:many many dog lovers, you might lose some customers. We live and learn, don't we?

    I"ve learned so much here, i can't even tell you. *I* had so many wrong ideas :msniwonder:when i first joined here, but, other members did help turn on lightbulbs for me along the way. AND I THANK ALL OF YOU WHO DID, you all know who you are!!!:msngiggle:

    Yeah, Capo, my guess is, most members here (not all, but, i'd bet most) see dogs as both sentient and sensitive creatures, and prefer positive only training methods. I don't recall, in all the time i've read this site, ever seeing anyone advise punishing a dog to help him "learn"....coulda happened, but, i've never seen it. AT least, not here, in a website full of dog lovers.:dogbiggrin:

    And choke collars and spike collars ARE a cruel form of punishment, if you don't think so, YOU wear one, and then decide if that is punishment or not. But, i can understand, if everyone else you know uses them, very very well intentioned people use them, :msnohyes: and even many trainers recommend them, so it is confusing.:msniwonder: But it is a form of punishment, imo, and, imo, does not fall under positive only training methods.

    Especially when there are better options, like Gentle Leader head collars for walking,

    or harnesses for running.

    I'm guessing that most of us (not all, but probably most of us) would prefer using a harness or stepping up training, :msnohyes:(there are some brilliant ppl here who can and do help others sort out best approach for whatever it is you want your dog to be able to DO)----------

    instead of cruel, painful, harmful, or at best *uncomfortable*,:dogtongue: dog collars.:dognowink:

    btw---this is just my own opinion, just 1 member who reads this site a lot, (so *i* can keep on learning.):msnwink:
  20. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    by the way, Rouen is right, prong collars are less damaging than choke collars: (some countries ban these devices, not sure what country you are in)

    Prong Collar Info

    //"....100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
    The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
    Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
    Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma."//

    (still, i would never use one on my beloved dog, even if this study says only 2% chance of long term damage. Maybe i'm naive, but, i still think there are always better options, training, harnesses, etc.)

    LOSE THE CHOKE COLLARS!!!:dogtongue:
    Prong Collar Info

    the link above is pro- prong collars, but, i am not, and still think a Gentle Leader or front-hook harness, or increased training are better options than stabbing dog in the neck.

    That study does not even mention dogs who developed thyroid disease, either. (thyroids are delicate bits of tissue in neck, never designed or intended to withstand pressure of any sort, and throids are very crucial to a dog's health)

    Still, some studies show that many prong collars do not release when dog stops wrong behavior, thus negating "the learning by punishment" (if punishment continues:dogblink: even when dog is doing correct thing.)

    Have you tried using a "clicker"??? This is also what they use to train those whales in whale shows. Is all POSITIVE method and very effective!! We have many threads on clickers!!!

    The Dangers of Choke, Pinch (prong), and Shock Collars

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