Soft Poo :(

[tigerlily46514]

//Tigerlily and Sara, I'm not taking sides.//

lol! *someday* Sara and i WILL agree on something! and i do agree with many of her posts, and often say so, and i often "like" her posts but, it's probably great to have multiple points of view on any topic anyway.
but yeah, i do think $422 for a 40 lb bag of Honest Kitchen dog food is off the hook. but, it's good to get all types of ideas on a dog forum. LIke our dogs, we humans are all unique individuals.

but, at any rate, it's great to have multiple points of view on topics, i really think so! No one knows everything, that is why it's so so great that we have so many members here to post all various ideas and points of view! Viva la difference!

 

[sara]

LOL yeah Tigerlily and I offen differ in opinion, but that's a good thing, and it gives perspectives. Everyone is different, and has different opinions, as long as it stays positive and helpful, and doesn't slide into a war , a difference of opinion is a really good thing

I did buy the Honest Kitchen, but that price is misleading, as I do believe that it's 4 x the amount once re-hydrated. And I feed it to Mouse once every 2 days or more, and less than a 1/4 of a cup at a time. Mouse cant have canned food (she gets blisters in her mouth from the food's contact with metal) So when the other 2 get canned, she gets dehydrated raw. The Honest Kitchen, Addiction, Canisource, K9 Natural.

I dont make alot of money, but I have nothing to spend my money on (well except rent, electricity, car, fuel, food, and phone LOL) except my dogs. I probably could have alot more, but I choose to spend on my dogs rather than extra stuff for me. My dogs eat better than I do LOL. And that's probably not a healthy way to live, but it makes me happy, so who cares? I need new glasses, but the dogs need their supplements, so I drop $160 on food, treats and supplements... oops, I guess my glasses will just have to hold together until next month Hopefully the crazy glue will hold

 

[tigerlily46514]

Lol, i hear you on the glasses, mine are from dollar store.

// as long as it stays positive and helpful, and doesn't slide into a war //
yes, i agree, and that is why i always try to back your remarks up, when i can, even on this thread, i always try to support your remarks when i can, and "like" your remarks when i can. I think doing stuff like that gives a thread or a website a more friendly feel, imo, when we DO support each other when we can.
But, that's just me.



I think or hope that my always doing that seems more friendly and polite, imo.
I think i am always uber-polite and kind,
i just see things differently.

and yes, the 5-star flavors sold by Honest Kitchen are truly priced in the $400 range.

Four, 10 lb Boxes​

Save $10!​

​

$422.02​

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/zeal/

their 4-star flavors are only $200 to $300 though....


see, i'd just get MEAT. and donate the cost difference to Humane society, IF i had that kind of money to put into dogs.
This kind of pricing almost feels like a scam to *me*.

I could get a LOTTA meat for $400.........

 

[tigerlily46514]

like i also think, many supplements, and much of the homeopathy stuff,
is "woo" or bunk or crapola. *Some* of it, there IS an actual basis of some kind, for the claims made, but, much of it is "woo".

I think there are tons of scamsters out there, selling snake oil. I think humans are often suggestible, and i think many ppl with dogs they adore can be vulnerable to such scamsters, too. I also think there ARE a subset of scamsters selling stuff who seem to truly believe that so-and-so oil will do this or that, and many of us humans see what we are told is there.
It can be like the children's story, "The Emperor's Clothes" at times.


but, i do certainly understand someone loving their dog, and i totally completely understand someone doing anything and everything they can to help their dogs. OH, do i ever. I just have a healthy skepticism of sales ppl, and i am aware, anyone can sell anything,
and say whatever they want to about it.

Even i could market scented baby oil,
tell you it is Rosemary Extract, put a label on it which reads "Rosemary Extract".
and further tell you, that Rosemary Extract calms a dog down, or makes a dog livelier,
or whatever i think ppl are looking for. I can pretty much say whatever i want to about my over-the-counter stuff.

This is true for products for humans, too. Who hasn't seen some "over-the-counter" products being advertised for ppl who want to lose weight, or "for men"? Month after month, right on tv!! MIght just be a pill made out of baking soda.
Millions are being made. Those TV ads have to cost a fortune, so a LOT of ppl must be falling for this stuff.
Sure, sooner or later, customers realize it is a scam, but, by then, the scammers have already made their millions.

There are no easily-enforcable laws against that, over-the-counter stuff is NOT well regulated. If a scamster does get shut down, in another month, they have a new website, or a new shelf in the store, maybe a new name for the same stuff...maybe new promises, as well.


ANYONE can run a website or a factory and sell whatever, and tell you it is this or that, and tell you it will DO this or that.
I could do this, but, i wouldn't, i'd see that as immoral. But if i did sell snake oil, I could even get ppl to post testimonials on my website,
about how my oil helped their dogs so so much, etc etc. Especially if lots of ppl all swear something is real or true, we can get fooled by that, happens to me now and then, cuz i am a human, and it's easy to prove humans ARE suggestible.

 

[Dogster]

Yeah, I think Honest Kitchen is a bit pricy, but the price balances out when you're feeding 10 foods, LOL That's the only way I could afford it. Sigh, I wish dog food was more affordable (like the price of Purina)

I don't believe in homeopathy either. The supplements I give Shivon (kelp, petchup) help her though, I don't think it's homeopathy.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yeah, kelp is a food, i eat it, too, cuz it's healthier than potato chips, imo.
and i don't think most dogs, if well fed,
need extra vitamins, i really don't.

See, some vitamins are water soluable, and our bodies, and our dogs' bodies, can easily excrete excess amounts.
but some vitamins are fat soluable, and can build up and become unhealthy to either humans, or to dogs.


http://www.petplace.com/dogs/vitamin-toxicity-in-dogs/page1.aspx




Dogster, you *might* want to try Shivon off of vitamins for a few weeks, and see if her occasional poor appetite improves? i could be full of baloney there, but, one of the signs of overdoses of *some* vitamins, is,
reduced appetite. just a thought.


If, for some reason, you do feel your dog has a nutritional need,
it's probably safer,
and more natural,
to feed the dog what you think he is missing from his diet, than to give him pills::http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=vitamins

^note the differences in toxicity in water soluble vitamins, vs, fat soluble vitamins. This is another reason, i cut Buddy's liver cookies with 2/3 veggies, and mention on that recipe thread to never use two yellow veggies, is to cut the vitamin A in the cookies, cuz liver IS chockful of vitamin A.

 

[sara]

I feed Salmon Oil, Kelp, Petchup, ReGen Max (a joint supplement), and Primrose Oil. These are all from reputable companies, and because 2 of my dogs are Dachshunds, where back issues are a constant worry, it's too important not to. Petchup is a flavour enhancer with vitamins added, and as long as they're not OD-ing on vitamins, perfectly acceptable. My dog's urine is not overly yellow, infact it's rather pale, because they get so much water due to me never feeding their food dry.

As to Shivon, Dogster said that her appetite HAS improved since she started this new feeding regime, so I wouldn't worry overmuch there. I've read several books on feeding and a good multivitamin is recommended for dogs, by natural and homeopathic vets.

And as to The Honest Kitchen, I wasn't saying your price was wrong, I was saying that it is misleading as once the food is re-hydrated it's 4 x the amount of food. And dogs need very little. It's still very expensive, and I would never feed it solely, but I do feed it in my rotation to mainly Mouse. And when I have to feed so little, the expense is minor. It smells good enough for ME to eat! LOL

 

[tigerlily46514]

//Petchup is a flavour enhancer with vitamins added, and as long as they're not OD-ing on vitamins, perfectly acceptable.//

yeah, but, why would any well fed dog need extra vitamins ??
how can one be sure they are not overdosing a well fed dog with too many vitamins?
Why take the risk??


Why not just feed the foods listed here:http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=vitamins
to add in whatever one feels their dogs diet is missing? intead of give pills or drops? It'd be more natural and probably safer....right? than giving concentrated vitamin drops or pills?

Yes, yes, i so so so share your concern with the exaggerated over-long spines of today's dachsund, i would be concerned and like you, i'd do all i can to protect those spines! Zero hard, verifiable proof that primose helps protect bones, though. Well, ppl SELLING it, post websites how primrose helps bones,
but, researchers who are NOT selling it, nor selling books, don't agree with the sellers...........there isn't much quality evidence to support the claims made by those who have a vested interest to sell books or herbs. Not everything in all books is "true" imo.


//

Some preliminary evidence suggests evening primrose oil may reduce pain, swelling, and morning stiffness; but other studies have found no effect.//​

​

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-6-000317.htm​

///However, high-quality evidence for its use in most conditions is still lacking.......​

It is unlikely that evening primrose oil would help stop progression of the disease, so joint damage would still occur.//​

​

http://www.healthline.com/natstandardcontent/evening-primrose-oil


//Evening primrose oil alone had no significant effects, but the positive results from the fish oil group were also seen in the fish oil plus evening primrose oil group.//
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/PUFA_for_Bone_Growth_and_Repair.shtml

but, some studies suggest that primrose *may* help, while others say nope,

but it doesn't seem to have many side effects so probably no harm done if it doesn't cost too much.

​

​

 

[tigerlily46514]

//I've read several books on feeding and a good multivitamin is recommended for dogs, by natural and homeopathic vets.//

Homeopathy is often easily invaded by crackpots, like i said, a lot of it is crapola, with no basis, but, *some* of it does have a basis of some kind. It's totally unregulated, and i hope your primrose oil truly IS primrose oil like they say it is.

and i've been severly disappointed to realize, many vets don't seem to know a lot about dog nutrition. Fixing broken dog legs, YES! What to feed a dog, not so much.

But WHY would a well fed dog need vitamin supplements??

 

[tigerlily46514]

and i sure do hope Shivon does continue to eat well!!! and i hope Shivon does continue to enjoy a good appetite!! I know poor Dogster has tried many many foods, thought she'd hit success, ..........then later, Shivon would quit eating that dog food, and then, Dogster would try yet another dog food,
so i truly hope Shivon does continue to enjoy a good, healthy appetite!! BON APPETITE!! It does seem like Dogster has it all solved now!!! Dogster sure never gave up, kept trying and trying to find a way to get Shivon to eat more!! KUDOS TO YOU, DOGSTER!!

 

[running_dog]

and yes, the 5-star flavors sold by Honest Kitchen are truly priced in the $400 range.

TBH a LOT of UK owners feed James Wellbeloved kibble/mixer (When you helped me choose a food for Zac you looked at that one Tigerlily and you weren't all that impressed ) I may be wrong but by the time I converted the price to dollars and the kg to lb as a comparison I think it was working out at about $300 for 40lb and it definately DOESN'T reconstitute to 4x the amount. I know people with LARGE dogs that feed this ALL the time and they don't have a large income either.

EDIT - I got one of my conversions backwards so I owe an apology to JW It works out about $75 per 40lb (Unless I got it wrong again which is not at all impossible ) . So not in the same league although if you consider the reconstitution factor that would still bring the other food down to a similar price range.

I feed Zac a mixer that is still way out of my price range at just over half the price of JW but because his diet is filled out with so many other things it isn't as expensive as it looks (he only gets about a handful each day) and if it saves him getting run down and having to go to the vets for minor ailments all the time it pays for itself in no time!

 

[tigerlily46514]

True, RunningDog makes a great point,
if we feed our dogs crap,
we can have run down dogs, or increased medical bills, that is so so true.


but, i just think dog food that costs $100 dollars per 40 pound,
or $400s per 40 lbs,
is out of the range of most dog owners to pay,
and i also believe one CAN find a great dog food,
at a reasonable price.

like i said, if i was going to pay THAT much for dog food,
i'd just do like Charmed Wolf does,
and feed meat. Real, actual meat,
and then, i'd donate the difference to the local dog pounds to feed those dogs, too. IF i had that kind of money to spend on dog food.

EDIT: i don't imagine Cwolf spends that amt on dog food, not what i am trying to say,
i'm just saying, i'd do like she does, and just feed meat, or mostly all meat, IF i *could* spend more on dog food,
i'd leave kibble entirely,
and go for plain ol meat.


and Rdog, i kind of felt bad you could not afford that one brand, is also why i think i said it wasn't worth that much money...

 

[sara]

Primrose Oil is an anti inflammatory, and Boo has some pain in his back, which has mostly gone away since I started the Primrose Oil. and the oil I feed has vitamin E included (mixed tocepherols if I spelled that right) when feeding salmon oil, it's recommended to feed extra vitamin E, as salmon oil depletes vitamin E. Besides, it has been known to help skin and coat, and anything that might keep Mouse's fur on her, is a bonus for me

http://www.carnivora.ca/html/featured_products/supplements_and_health_care/primrose_oil/index.cfm

The joint supplement is Liquid ReGen Max by Pet Tek I also use their Wild Salmon Oil product.

The thing is, I am not harming my dogs in any way shape or form, but the chance that these products can help them is big enough that I am willing to spend the money.

 

[tigerlily46514]

i agree, Sara, like i said, i do not think those products harm your dogs, either. the link you post, is from ppl who ARE selling it.
Like i said, i could also set up a website, and sell baby oil, label it as whatever i want to, and make any claim i want to about it.
But, i'd bet, that probably IS real actual primrose oil. who knows?

What i hate is when ppl take only homeopathy, and end up dying . Or get "treated" in the aisles of their local homeopathy stores instead of getting real diagnosis.
Some interesting law suits out there, and usually, the customer wins the lawsuit against the schiesters. YAY!

I am not sure about adding extra vitamins to dogs,
i've cared for humans who were admitted for confusion, lethargy, all sorts of issues, and it turns out, they'd just had all their homeopathy and vitamin overdoses, etc.

Vitamins aren't necessary for dogs, if the dog IS well fed, imo. Is there any research (NOT by sellers) that indicates well fed dogs need extra vitamins??

cuz there IS evidence dogs can overdose on vitamins...

 

[running_dog]

but, i just think dog food that costs $100 dollars per 40 pound,
or $400s per 40 lbs,
is out of the range of most dog owners to pay,

I think I'm saying that it depends on what your feeding regime is. And it depends on your priorities. And I think feeding a balanced diet of meat in the UK would exceed this price too, we do feed about 1/3 meat and even just using the cheaper meats available (not a balanced diet ) that forms the bulk of Zac's feeding cost.

and Rdog, i kind of felt bad you could not afford that one brand, is also why i think i said it wasn't worth that much money...

LOL I hate buying what everyone else buys! Besides I don't want to pay for dog food ingredients that are fit for human consumption (presumably even the beet pulp ) I know what dogs LIKE to eat and those things really aren't fit for human consumption .

 

[tigerlily46514]

//And I think feeding a balanced diet of meat in the UK would exceed this price too, //


I have no idea, but, you may be right. I bet Charmed Wolf would know, how much it costs to feed one 50 lb dog meat...i know i do NOT know!! rofl!!

 

[sara]

I didn't post those links to show you proof of what they're good for, I posted those links so you could see what they're made of.

I dont believe sellers either, but I do my research ahead of time.

And I would never turn to homeopathy over a vet, but if I can treat something without the use of drugs with potentially harmful side effects, than I will.

When I first got Boo, he seemed to have some pain in his back, though nothing showed on x-rays. He was overweight as well. In the first year after I adopted him, he lost the extra weight (which was my vet's first choice for treatment) He still seemed to have some pain, and my vet told me that waiting until it's bad enough for steroids and anti-inflammatories is the only think he can do (the wait is because he doesn't want him on dangerous drugs until it can't be helped). But he did recommend that I look into fish oils and primrose oil. I already had him on salmon oil, but did the research on the primrose oil. In the last 2 months that I have been giving the primrose, Boo is not attacking his butt as often, and is not licking his back legs continuously like he was. He is not yelping for no reason either. So I think it's doing it's job, but we'll see as the months wear on.

Vets often really dont know alot about nutrition, but my vet seems to be doing his research as well. He and I have had some very good discussions on the subject of proper feeding, and he's more than happy to discuss natural remedies and such. We did bloodwork on Boo as well, the last time, and everything is looking really good there. I asked him about the vitamins that I am giving my dogs, and he said that what I'm doing seems to be working, and Boo is in tip top shape, so to keep doing what I'm doing, it's definately NOT harming him.

Not scientific, no, but it's working for us. Especially since Boo was so unhealthy when I first adopted him. His aggression is gone now too

 

[tigerlily46514]

this is from 2010,
and this person has done some extensive thought and work, like buying bulk, and buying freezers,
and claims she is raw feeding her german shepherds for a dollar or two per day,
http://preymodelraw.com/tag/raw-feeding-costs/
???? but, it's not impossible, she is not good at math, or is a liar.
but,
it does look like SHE has bought extra freezer just for this method, which, probably not everyone can do. But, she does have 4 german shepherds,
maybe maybe one would not need an extra freezer for one dog, not sure.

 

[tigerlily46514]

OH SARA, I SO APPLAUD YOUR GETTING WEIGHT OFF OF THE DACHSUND,
AND I SO APPLAUD YOUR CHOICE TO AVOID USING STERIODS!! <---so hard on so many dogs, especially if done long term.

GOOD ON YOU, SARA!! I do agree with you, your vet, that especially for dachsunds, keeping them fit and trim is key to their spinal health!! YAY!!
(does it ever show, i have relatives with obese doxies.. .)

 

[southerngirl]

I find this thread very interesting. I feed Missy and Chase Kibbles and Bits, yes it is very crappy dog food probably one of the worst out there, but that's what my mom can afford with four kids and 7 animals. Even though they get feed this neither one of them have had to go to the vet for being sick, Missy's only went to the vet once(spayed) and Chase well a bunch cause he manged to get hit by a car than twice by a motorcycle, but never for being sick. They are both healthy dogs. I wish we could afford better food especially for Chase considering he's turning 16 on the 19th and his health has been deterating, his age is really showing these days. I checked out CS but it was too much. When I get my own job hopefully I will be able to get Missy better food.
Candie I hope your pup is feeling better.