Natural Dog Training

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by mewzard, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. tx_cowgirl Honored Member

    Nope, Z's not a tugger. And he definitely wouldn't push even for breakfast. I've been trying to get him to take treats from a suggestion by Silvia Trkman, which was to make him understand that treat=tennis ball. Lol, opposite of how so many dogs would learn...get the tennis ball, you get a treat. Haha, for Z it's so much better if he gets the tennis ball for taking a treat. In Z's little mind, the tennis ball is single-handedly the absolute best thing in the world. He is getting better at taking some treats, but not 100% sure he will push for treats. He burns out suuuuuuppper fast on treats. Just no motivation for treats whatsoever.
    I'll see if I can figure something out with him tomorrow or Tuesday.
    Thanks for the link Charmedwolf!

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Thanks for link, Cwolf! I will check that out! I myself don't really see my dog as being at "rock bottom" if that is what you meant, ohhh he WAS when i met him, shiver! he sure was as low as a dog could go back then! Buddy was undeniably, one hot mess.
    bit everyone he met, took on every dog he saw, even from 500 feet away, buddy was freaked out. Back then, Buddy even winced to the sound of a distant dog barking...went "on guard" to dogs he couldn't even SEE!?

    But now, he can almost 'pass' for normal much of the time now, (much, not all)
    can be across the street from most unknown dogs and walk calmly by. (note, i said "most" not all).
    Buddy's reactions are less frequent, less violent, briefer, no longer have that blood curdling "life or death" sound the them, the reactions are easier to prevent, and easier to interrupt,
    and he has changed his mind about biting everyone he meets long time ago, LOVES everyone now, just stoked to meet anyone and everyone, now.

    but, i'm open to anything that could help him, so long as it is positive/not harmful, and i'm impressed with rep0rts f 0Ka's prgress....hly crap, the letter 0 is nw stuck n my keybard...have t use zer0s.........bah ha ha.......
    mewzard likes this.
  3. mewzard Experienced Member


    A question Tigerlily - How long has Buddy been herding baskets and does when he started to herd them coincide with when he started to improve around dogs?

    I figure that can't harm so...why not? I have got very little improvement with the +P/clicker method with Oka, she just doesn't care what i have in my hand if there is a dog/wildlife in sight.

    Tx - many recommend fasting (the dog!) for 24hours first to make them hungry enough for food, idea behind this is that thats what promts a hunt and essentually using this method you are making yourself "prey".

    You can put exciting food in with the meal to make it more appealing. Oka is raw fed so i put cheese in, or ham. If Zeke is kibble/dog food fed try putting in a bit of cooked steak or boiled chicken. You can look through Neil Sattin's forum for suggestions, even sign up and post - though it's pretty dead on there.

    I made a video this morning in my filthy backyard. when i've sorted it out i'll post it here :D
  4. mewzard Experienced Member

  5. tx_cowgirl Honored Member

    Thanks so much for the video, it's a lot easier to understand when you can actually see the push.

    I think this could be great for Z, if I can work it out. Will definitely give this a go. :)
    tigerlily46514 and mewzard like this.
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //A question Tigerlily - How long has Buddy been herding baskets and does when he started to herd them coincide with when he started to improve around dogs? //


    You know, i am not sure, how long he has been herding baskets, it was a lil while til WE realized how much he LOVES laundry baskets, but, i am not sure how long we had Buddy, til we gave him his very own laundry basket, BUT it was pretty early on. He had a blast with it, head-butting it all over the yard.
    for a long long time, he only had the one (1) basket.

    then we gave him TWO, and that is when he began to do what looks like herding to me, the way Buddy groups the baskets together in various areas of the house, or various areas of the yard. This was either his first spring with us, or his first summer with us.

    Now, Buddy has 3 indoor baskets, and 3 outdoor baskets.

    Buddy's re-activity to unknown dogs is not caused by inactivity. He is a pretty active dog, and we spend much time keeping him busy. I am pretty sure, he's had baskets for the bulk of the time we've had him, def from his first summer with us, he's been herding baskets.
    that was more than 3 years ago. He's still dog-aggressive,
    he's just much better. Controlled better, like diabetes or something.

    but, there is no doubt in my mind, if one IS working with a dog with tons of unspent energy, that ANY task they try to do, will be made much harder if dog is boiling over with unspent energy.

    Like i've often posted, on multiple threads, and in my frequent correspondence with Tx_cowgirl,
    i began to see dramatic visible difference in Buddy about other dogs,
    when i began to use doggie calming signals. IT WAS LIKE A LIGHTBULB MOMENT FOR *ME*.
    I'd bet, that Tx can vouch for this moment, as she was the one coaching me and teaching me how to do it,
    and i bet Tx clearly remembers our shared excitement over the breakthrough. It was a "first" for Buddy,
    and it was clearly, distinctly related to my giving Buddy calming no matter what i'd tried before, i'd failed at getting Buddy to walk by dogs without reacting.

    I stood witness to the big change. I stood witness, to the first time, that i ever ever successfully walked my lil gangsta dog past other dogs and had NO reaction. MY HEART WAS POUNDING, I COULD HARDLY CONTAIN MY WILD EXCITEMENT and JOY, but, i did my best to hide that,:LOL:
    as it seemed to me to wrong move, to go crazy gagga nutz while trying to get THE DOG to be calm!!:ROFLMAO:
    Which was also the first time i'd ever tried using doggie calming signals. OR, it was one of the first times i'd ever used calming signals.
    so i don't think there was a laundry-basket herding connection, cuz he'd been herding baskets for quite a while by this moment, <-----which i *think* was the second year i had Buddy, not the first year.

    Prior to using doggie calming signals, (which do not work EVERY time for my dog, but DO work pretty darn often)
    i had wasted an entire year
    on using "Look At Me" only. This prevented reactions, but did nothing to desensitize my dog to actually looking RIGHT AT his 'enemy'.....using only " look at me" did NOT help my dog learn how to calmly look right AT other dogs.

    I feel there is huge difference, between
    ~Preventing reactions
    ~Interrupting reactions
    ~Desensitizing dogs to items/creatures they dislike or fear.

    to ME, it is 3 different methods/approaches. I feel we who work with dogs with issues, DO need all three approaches, or methods, too. AND anything else we can find along the way, too!!!
    Dogster likes this.
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //I have got very little improvement with the +P/clicker method with Oka, she just doesn't care what i have in my hand if there is a dog/wildlife in sight.//


    Buddy was exact same way!!
    at first.

    To even begin to do subthreshold desensitization,
    i had to move back to about 400 feet away,
    and begin THERE!!!:rolleyes:

    I'd bet, each and every dog might have their very own "distance" that they need to be able to not react,
    and for *my* dog, we started at about 400 or 500 feet away.....and slowly,
    staying at subthreshhold levels,
    i began to reward Buddy for being calm while looking AT the dog he 'hated',

    from 100s of feet away.

    and slowly,
    slowly, OVERTIME, we began to shorten the distance....

    Today's distance is a few feet, IF he reacts at all. (my dog DOES still react to some unknown dogs------ he is NOT "cured")

    but wowza, i sure did not START a few feet away!! oh no no no!! I had to invest a lot of time into subthreshold, long distance desensitization work........
    Dogster likes this.
  8. mewzard Experienced Member

    It was an age ago i wrote that so i can't remember the reason behind the question, i think i was thinking about the idea that he was completing a task that was hard wired - like a trait. Oka is built to run and hunt, her genetics (which by the crosses that she is) are led to that path, thats why i think that NDT has worked so well with her.

    So since January, Oka can now maintain a 'close' walk when a dog passes on the other side of the road, in a park she will return to me if a dog is onlead passing her within 5 to 10 meters (though she is still on a long line), thats one call and no lead pressure.
    Some days we are seen with her bouncing up and down on the side of the road, she must look like a dog with terrible manners but we encourage it (if we initiated it) becuase it's working. WE walk nicely past a dog (on the other side) we run and then play tug and be silly, channeling all the 'hyper excitement' in to me/partner. I've noticed that it's good for me too - i feel more in control, i don't get frustrated at her natural reactions which means she is happier and more inclined to "share" with me.

    We have bad days, the other day i got 5 minutes from my house and turned round and came back home...she was hyper and everywhere! Nothing was getting through.
    Anneke and tigerlily46514 like this.
  9. running_dog Honored Member

    This thread has made interesting reading Mewzard, I've been mildly building in some pushing with Zac's recall after seeing some of the info about Sue Garretts methods but this looks like something I could build much more constructively into working around prey... I like it... heading off to do some reading/thinking.

    Like Zeke, Zac didn't use to be interested in food only in his tennis ball... I had to pretty much half starve him to get over that barrier - 1/2 of his diet was hand fed as treats and not made up in his meal at the end of the day if he wouldn't eat them. Though I didn't know about Kikopup then I used methods similar to Kikopups videos about training dogs to like either play or treats as a reward (whichever they start off not liking). Basically no tennis ball until you eat the treat, still do that sometimes when Zac is hyper. If he won't eat the treat he doesn't get off leash, I give him loads of simply hardwired commands, and the tennis ball goes away. Mostly now he has me trained to give him a food reward and his tennis ball... :ROFLMAO:
    mewzard and Anneke like this.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //So since January, Oka can now maintain a 'close' walk when a dog passes on the other side of the road, in a park she will return to me if a dog is onlead passing her within 5 to 10 meters (though she is still on a long line), thats one call and no lead pressure.//

    MEWZARD, THIS IS FANTASTIC!! ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC PROGRESS!! KUDOS TO YOU, MEWZARD, wow and WOW!! Just really really wonderful, great news!! YESssss!! LOVE IT!! I so so so enjoy hearing about a dog making progress!!!! Made my day!!:D
  11. sara Moderator

    No kidding he's hard to understand!!! I bought his book a couple of weeks ago. I'm not impressed, he's way out there! Interesting, but I really dont get it.
  12. mewzard Experienced Member

    I am really pleased too. She does have bad times but overall improvement. The park example was even more impressive if i add in the fact that the dog walking by on lead was reactive to Oka - barking, pulling towards her. She just stood there a moment looking then 'popped' round to me. And of no real significance but something i noticed was that she no longer stands with her back to me when looking at a dog, she stands more side on to me - like including me? Possibly has no meaning at all but *shrug*.

    I didn't buy the book, so i have no idea whats in there. I have read alot of his blog and at first i found it really hard to begin to come around to his idea. Some of it sounds very new-agey and "science fiction". I'm not totally convinced that it isn't, HOWEVER using the principles led out by Neal Sattin (who learnt from Kevin), Oka has made sooo much progress it's hard for me to say that there isn't something in it.
    It made more sense to me once i shelved (at first, just so i could read the blog) the idea that +ve training was the best way. I'm not saying that +ve training is bad; just that other ways may be just as good. Distraction training just did not work for Oka with dogs, yet this has worked 10x better in such a short time.

    I don't think that every dog will like/"get" it either, I think it works really well for Oka as she has a really high prey drive, not helped by the fact she has caught and killed several items of wildlife :oops: . Her getting 'physical' with us gets that some of that urge out, and has helped her bond with us more - my non 'people' dog will now curl up next to me on the sofa. Rough and tumble, pushing, tug, jump up-push off (our own game), running, and some box training have made us equally as interesting as other onlead dogs, some wildlife, and other occurences that would have ended up in a nightmare situtation. She can /down-stay/ in high drive, she can /stay/ in high drive near another (on lead) dog - not a chance of anything close to that before christmas, she was deaf with her back to us when spotting a dog 300 yrds away.
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //but something i noticed was that she no longer stands with her back to me when looking at a dog, she stands more side on to me - like including me? Possibly has no meaning at all but *shrug*.//

    i have no idea if Oka standing with her side to YOU means anything, either,
    but her standing with her side to the other dog might be a peacemaking sign.
    I've seen my dog do that, especially to other reactive dogs,
    Buddy (when he's being 'good') will offer his side to the other dog,
    this is one of many of signals, "i come in peace".

    When Buddy offers BOTH his side,
    AND a 'fake sniff'' in the ground,:D:D:D:D:D:D
    that always works...always, so far, this has never failed Buddy, the other dog calms down. Every time Buddy does that.
    I have never ever seen Buddy offer his 'fake sniff' without also turning his side towards the reactive i kind of think the "side to the dog" thing has some meaning to dogs.

    I never ever ever interrupt that, never. I never ever interrupt a 'fake' sniff. I stand silently and wait, (smiling hugely:D ), allowing Buddy to decide, if and when, he will move fwd.

    Buddy typically holds his 'fake sniff' pose til the other dogs have settled down completely,
    and then, sometimes Buddy will hold that 'fake sniff' position as he walks past them, with his nose in the grass.
    Works like a charm.:D
    Every time.

    My heart pounds with joy when i see Buddy doing a 'fake sniff' for a reactive dog, as that is the best possible reply he can offer.
    Dogster likes this.

Share This Page

Real Time Analytics