How Long Does It Take? -- Reliable Recall Training.

Discussion in 'Obedience Training' started by MissyBC, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. johnny1609 Active Member

    Most dogs will catch rabbits tigerlilly BUT I want the dog to be catching 19/20 runs and do it most nights of the week.

    648117 - if it don't come came, tuff. I have had pet dogs as a kid and tbh I don't see the point as I'm unable to become emotionally attched to things including people and pets.
    I don't have a pack I have single dogs, all dogs are worked by themselves unless it was things like fallow deer or bigger.
    I don't understand the scale thing I'm afraid.

  2. 648117 Honored Member

    My point was really just that you are comparing two completely different things in completely different situations,
    so of course your view will be different to the average pet owner who has a different sort of dog and interacts with them in a different way in a different environment.
    And with the amotional attachment that really shows how you are different to pet owners in that you perhaps see it as the dogs problem if it doesn't come back and gets killed whereas a pet owner wouldn't see it like that.
    If you had a dog and it didn't come back you would "get rid" of it, perhaps you would do this five times before you get a dog that you like whereas the pet owner would still be trying to sort out the first dog without giving up.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  3. running_dog Honored Member

    I find that impressive even for working dogs. The owners of working lurchers that I have met (and quizzed as I'm sure you can imagine :ROFLMAO:) have never laid claim to 100% recall from a chase, some have even gone so far as to claim it is a fiction. The only recall I've seen of a working lurcher off prey was off a roe deer, I'd have to say it wasn't a first time recall and the owner was very proud of his dog, to be fair the deer had sprung out a whisker in front of the dog so it was very close and ultra tempting. Anyway I am really happy to be able to find someone who thinks 100% recall is not only possible but kind of normal :). I'd think it probably fills most of us working on recall with an increased optimism.

    The down side is that I googled lurcher recall and there is a division of opinion of lurcher owners... pet owners don't tend to be able to train a good recall, working dog owners do. This does suggest that there is something in the rewards theory - that prey driven dogs recall/bond when they are rewarded by chasing/catching. Also some time in the far distant past I read in a book (maybe by Jackie Drakefield or was it Drakeford :confused:) about how some dogs get so hyper when first hunting that the only way to get them responsive again is to run them after so many rabbits that the novelty wears off (go for it Tigerlily, set Buddy on those skunks :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:).

    I'm guessing it does possibly depend on the breed (Frank Sheardown in his book wrote that a deerhound/greyhound should ever be off leash in a field with sheep unless it was geriatric and under close control so I'm reckoning that means he didn't trust his recall!). But obviously if you need a dog that you can work under control (like Johnny) you don't go for those crosses and to be honest (though every dog IS different) I don't think any of us have that excuse for our recall failures - deerhound crosses anyone? Maybe huskies have a similar excuse? But definitely not border collies, collieX lurchers and so on so back to work training recall we all go :rolleyes:.

    I think we may be being unfair to Johhny regarding the wastage/rehoming of young dogs (difficult as there are so many unwanted lurchers :(). He is talking about working dogs. We don't necessarily expect a shepherd to keep a dog that is hopeless at herding, nor a sled dog team to be padded out with dogs that won't run though we expect an old working dog to have an honourable retirement. Johnny is putting in a lot of time and training and I'm sure he doesn't want to waste that whether he feels emotionally attached or not. If his dogs are well cared for (and the fact he is here suggests that they are) they probably have more fun in their lives doing what they are designed for than any emotionally doted on pet in which we try to curb rather than fulfill their basic instincts.

    LOL Johnny you SHOULD have chosen a different term than "force training" :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: and you do need to figure on pet owners having a different attitude to dogs than yourself and not being able to offer their dogs the levels of reward that you can. In fact if we manage to have SOME success clicker training imagine how much faster and better it might make YOUR training... truly if you haven't used a clicker it is worth trying as it helps to pinpoint the moment that you want to praise the dog for - I only started using one a few months ago so I remember how much difference it made to my communication with Zac.
    648117 and tigerlily46514 like this.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //(go for it Tigerlily, set Buddy on those skunks :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:).//


    now RunningDog, that is some pretty darn unique advice there!!! rofl!! Ya know, next time he gets skunked, since he is already stinky--i think i just might do that, over and over and over! rofl!!
    running_dog likes this.
  5. johnny1609 Active Member

    i have got rid of the following dogs and i will honestly tell you why; chief, zeus, steph, rocky and jess. this is dogs i work and train but some have lived with me and some my father depending on kennel space.

    chief - my mum hand reared this dog after his entire litter was rejected. he was 3/4 greyhound 1/4 bull. i spent 2 years teaching him everything before i even started to take him out. i took him out rabbiting and he just didnt have any manners at all! everything id taught him he seemed to forget. when he eventually returned and when he eventually did catch his first rabbit he would not retrieve it. okay so i thought id just use him for the intention he was bred. i tryed him on deer with another dog several times and he just wasnt interested, maybe id stock broke him to well. then i thought id try him on foxes, so i called a fox in close. he caught it, it bit him and he spat it out. ok no bother, called another in and allowed tom to catch it. he retrieved the fox nye on dead, we put tom away and shown it to chief who just barked and ran away. well after this he was put into a pet home.

    Zeus- bought this dog at 1 yr old, well i tryed him on countless fox and deer and he was just no good he was also food aggressive so he went back to where he came from and iv been told he was eventually killed by a pure bull in a kennel fight.

    Steph - saluki x bull/whippet. bought her as guaranteed and she was tremendous on fallow and roe but i already had dogs doing that so needed her to have that bit extra. was told she would slaughter foxes, ran her with rocky and she just didnt want the fox. tried her again with billy and she really didnt want it so she was given to a friend that only does rabbiting.

    rocky and jess - rocky was roughly 5/8 grey 3/8 bull. jess was 3/4 grey 1/4 bull. both tremendous dogs to both own and work. only problem was i was unfortunately in my lack of wisdom breaking hunting laws to obviously and rumours started to go around. this caused me to get visits from the rspca, now there was nothing wrong with the dogs or how i kept them but the fact i was using them to take foxes so i unfortunately had to get rid of them before they were seized and put to sleep as these two i had a great bond and didnt want them put to sleep.

    dogs i currently have - billy, nia, tom, panda and dip.

    Billy - deer/grey x beddy/grey. a dog very good on hare, deer and rabbit that is a pleasure to work and own.

    nia - collie/grey x grey // saluki/grey X staff/grey back to a whippet. my favourite and i probably do have ahn attachment to her as i cried when she broke her kneck. bought nia at 12 months old to turn foxes back into tom. nia came with mange, worms and fleas. she was poorly fed and underweight. my dad bought her out of sympathy tbh. took her out and she had no recall, wouldnt retrieve or behave. well thats now all sorted and shes a pleasure to use. shes 6 now and a firm part of the family.

    tom - 3/8 bull, 2/8 grey and 3/8 whippet. a good hard dog that is now semi retired as he is 10 this year. we were given him after his previous owner commited suicide. now had him 7 years.

    panda and dip - 2 pups out of nia and billy.

    'first hunting that the only way to get them responsive again is to run them after so many rabbits that the novelty wears off' - the problem with this is you can dishearten them and stop them chasing full stop.

    'deerhound/greyhound should ever be off leash in a field with sheep unless it was geriatric and under close control so I'm reckoning that means he didn't trust his recall!)' disagree entirely, its all down to time and effort but as they are a large dog they take longer to mature so can be hard work.
    running_dog likes this.
  6. running_dog Honored Member

    I'd guess the original idea was a matter of them hunting enough to wear off the novelty but not enough to make them fed up :rolleyes:. But what you say means that the suggestion might well work if Tigerlily set Buddy on as many skunks as possible in the hopes of disheartening him... :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: so glad there are no skunks here so Tigerlily can't say, "You first" :whistle: and also we need a smilie holding it's nose :) . I guess it does also work to run a dog after something it can't catch in order to stop it chasing - most dogs seem to give up chasing birds quite quickly though I know there are exceptions, some super pheasant catchers out there not to mention fish catchers :D maybe those were the ones that had an early success instead of getting discouraged.

    Fair point about the length of time a deerhound takes to mature. Not much experience of them myself just quoting the author.

    I'm glad you were quick enough to save Rocky and Jess. Really not impressed with the RSPCA generally, I was a junior member once (long time ago :eek:) but I didn't last long as the magazine was all about how to become a veggie O_o.

    Hope your Panda and Dip live up to the quality of Nia and Billy :) .
  7. johnny1609 Active Member

    the problem is rd there is a very fine line between the novelty and disheartening and i dont risk that line
  8. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"he was just no good he was also food aggressive"//

    Many of us have found we can solve food aggression. that's not permanent, it's solvable.

    //" everything id taught him he seemed to forget. "//

    then you didn't train him well enough, sorry. Good training involves slowly escalating the level of distraction and still be able to do what you want him to do, building on it, level by level.
    //"he eventually did catch his first rabbit he would not retrieve it."//

    did the dog even understand retrieve, (besides in closed hallway)?? did you practice having dog fetch you dead animals, so he became accustomed to them, and so the dog associated bringing dead animals to YOU as very rewarding thing to do?

    Interesting about Steph, wonder what the previous owners did differently, or if they were just liars? Also, you are aware, right, of the adjustment period when an adult dog is NEW to a home, right? It takes an adult dog new to a home a lil while to fully trust his owner, most adult dogs new to a home are a bit overwhelmed at first, whether or not the owner can read dog language to detect that, it's pretty common.

    so interesting, to compare hunting there to hunting where i live, here=the humans mostly do the hunting themselves, and take great pride in being able to stalk a creature, and getting close enough to shoot it with either a bow or a gun. OH dawg do they ever take pride in that!! rofl, wow, do they ever.:rolleyes: They see it as some mix of predator skills in tracking the creature, as well as bow or gun skills.

    My guy used to be great hunter, but he did it himself. (He no longer hunts now though, he tracked a great 16 pt buck, that he had shot with a bow, who was still dying, and something in him changed then, and he now rarely hunts.).

    Where i live, they do use retrievers to collect ducks they've shot, though, that is pretty common.
    I can understand how some dogs sure could enjoy that type of hunting you describe though, though. It sounds like you sure do need more reliable sources to get your dogs from, for those specific skills, maybe.(?)

    still, it's hard for me to imagine getting rid of dogs cuz they can't bring me meat. or fur, or whatever it is you are doing with all the bunnies, etc.

  9. johnny1609 Active Member

    I know it not but he was crap anyway, chief was taught retrieving properly. Stephs previous owners lied.

    My dogs are principally tools for a job, if they can't do the job they go
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    wow, you are missing out on a lot.
    dogs are a lot more than tools. (just my own opinion, that dogs are sentient beings)

    what do you do with the bunnies? eat them?
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    so chief did successfully retrieve other dead animals on cue?
    he would reliably, and consistently fetch them while you progressed through levels of training,
    and found bringing you dead animals to be very rewarding?

    chief HAD mastered all that, during his training,
    but then, suddenly would not bring a dead bunny?
  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"I guess it does also work to run a dog after something it can't catch in order to stop it chasing'//

    so far as i know, Buddy has never caught a deer, but continues to chase them....his never catching one does not seem to discourage all........:rolleyes:

    Racing greyhounds never catch that electric rabbit either, yet, get famous for chasing it....
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    JOhnny, i was reading up on this euthanizing the dogs :eek: for violations of the hunting ban in the UK,

    and it doesn't sound like they can kill your dogs over this, it says,

    //A person guilty of an offence under this Act is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale; at the moment that is 5,000 British Pounds (US$ 8,000). There is no jail penalty.[1]//

    Is that right?? anyway, i thought maybe it'd make you feel better, next time if your dog goes after a fox or something, that they wont' kill your dog.
    and sorry you lost the dogs you did like best cuz you thought they'd be euthanized. that had to be real hard.
    If your dogs really would have been euthanized in your area, that sure would seem so wrong, of the govt, to blame the dogs, imo.:eek:
  14. johnny1609 Active Member

    yes he had, he seemed to be doing great but just wasnt cut out to hunting so he went to a pet home.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  15. johnny1609 Active Member

    i can assure you they can as i know people that have had them taken and pts, especially bullxs as they arent strictly legal to keep.
  16. running_dog Honored Member

    It might be helpful to clarify that you mean pit bull crosses (not for instance bull terrier crosses). If that is the case then yes in the UK unless you are registered it is illegal to keep "pit bull type dogs" and their progeny. It is illegal to breed from them or to sell or rehome them. There are no restrictions on keeping hunting dogs (only for keeping dogs bred for fighting or allowing dogs to be dangerously out of control). So unless they have a breed classified as a "dangerous dog" in their breeding the restrictions are not on the lurchers only on the act of using them to hunt illegal quarry or on land without permission. Since 2004 it is illegal to hunt (as in chase and catch/kill) anything except rabbits and rats using dogs in England and Wales. Scotland protects rabbits and rats as well as all the other animals O_o.

    Tigerlily - If a charge, arrest or prosecution was made the dogs could well have been impounded and "disposed of" or "destroyed", you'll find the legislation here and here. If impounded they would very likely have then been put to sleep. I'm fairly sure they would not have been released for adoption incase they ended up back with illegal hunters. But if the dogs were taken in by Dogs Trust they'd be fine as they never kill a healthy dog :D.
  17. johnny1609 Active Member

    they went to other working lads through a friend and should they end up in the same situation as me theyll rehome them again.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  18. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    wow............they would or could end up euthanizing the dogs!!??:eek: wow, that just does not see fair, imo. wow. Johnny you sure did do the right thing, then, to rehome your dogs to let the dog have a chance to live.
    wow, i bet that was hard for you. real sorry to hear about that one. and sorry to have posted wrong info on it.
  19. johnny1609 Active Member

    it was the HARDEST of all the dogs but its part of the territory
  20. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    wow, i bet it was, Johnny, i bet it was. Seems an especially cruel turn of events, being that that dog was one of your favorites. I just can't imagine being in your shoes then.

    so do you ever get lost while following your dogs in the woods, do you yourself have to trail along behind the dogs???

    or are you fairly stationary, and the dogs just return to your area??

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