Help Needed With Are You Shy

[MaryK]

Ra Kismet has learned roll over a little too well When now asked to drop or down he does so immediately - great - but just as quickly does 'roll over'. We are learning, or trying to learn, 'are you shy' but it's not working from the drop position for the reason explained above. So I am now trying to teach him from the sitting position. He sits quickly and now will put, most times, both paws on my arm but when I lower the treat down he removes one paw - which is kinda defeating the purpose.

Any help and suggestions would be appreciated, as this trick is one I really do want him to learn because it will make everyone who knows him laugh a lot as he's not in the least shy.

He's quite willing to learn, I would NEVER make him do a trick he really didn't like but we just have a slight break down in communication on this one.

 

[tigerlily46514]

ROFL!! i so understand your words there.

Dogs often offer up tricks they have learned. Take care not to reward or praise those, IF those are not the ones you are asking for or want at that moment.

//"He sits quickly and now will put, most times, both paws on my arm but when I lower the treat down he removes one paw - which is kinda defeating the purpose."//

Do not reward that.
There are a few things you can try.
One idea is:
You can CLICK/TREAT very very fast,
BEFORE dog has chance to remove his paw,
and from there, slowly increase how low you bring your hand.

for example, you have dog with both paws on your arm,
you bring treat to same level as your arm, CLICK/TREAT while both paws are still on your arm.
Overtime,
now have treat 1 inch below your arm,
then 2 inches below your arm,
then 3 inches below your arm.

sometimes, we have to CLICK/TREAT in increments, slowly building on it like that.

Many tricks require many many lessons to get to final goal.

TIP: for me, for *my* dog, i almost never ever ever use the treat i am luring with,
to reward *my* dog. I take a different treat from a nearby cup or my treatbag. My dog now understands, he just never gets to eat the lure, and in some tiny way, this helps us later on, when it is time to fade out the lure. I also think, in some small way, this helps my dog focus on HIS position that he is being rewarded for, too.
When i click, my dog looks to the treatbag, he KNOWS he does not get to eat the lure. (usually, this is how i do it for most tricks anyway)

 

[tigerlily46514]

by the way,
for this trick, for your final goal for shy,
is your dog lying down,
or sitting up in a beg??

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"When now asked to drop or down he does so immediately - great - but just as quickly does 'roll over"//

One way i avoided this, (cuz my last dog did same exact thing)
is for my current dog,
i did NOT teach rollover for about a year after i had taught lie down. My current dog just never ever does a rollover now, til i ask for one.

If anyone is reading along, teaching your dog to down,
and then, in next week, teaching your dog to rollover,
often seems to lead to dogs who have a lot of trouble doing a plain down.

You may have to re-teach "down" all over again, to help dog sort out,
a "down" from a "rollover". Get the clicker, and CLICK/TREAT only plain downs, after luring dog into a plain down, just like you did the first times.
But, smile, re-teaching a known trick, to sharpen it up, or to fix a problem----does NOT take very long at all, and it might be well worth it to help your dog sort out the two tricks.

 

[MaryK]

First, thank you, I have been guilty of rewarding Ra Kismet for tricks he offers up - he looks so chuffed - my mistake (well aren't all training mistakes ours?) Will not give in in future.

Will put into practice what you have said tomorrow (rather later today) with the lure then treat. Mistake I've made too, rewarding too late AFTER the paw has come off my arm. Just have to work out where to put the treat so I can reach it quickly, if I keep it in my hand or on my person, he's a bit too knowing and looks for the treat and doesn't pay attention to what he's supposed to be doing, he's cheeky

He actually learned 'drop' at a very young age, before we started 'tricking' and that was the one he founded hardest, or simply didn't want to do because it's a submissive position and he's not exactly submissive , so had to really work with him on 'drop'. That would be now a good year after he FINALLY decided drop wasn't the end of the world. But he caught on fast to 'down/roll over' - I use drop when I just want him to drop and down/roll over - but he's got confused, so will retrain on 'drop' as you suggest and NOT reward when he quickly does roll over without being asked for that trick instead of just dropping as asked.

As to whether he does shy in the down or sit up position, to be honest, I prefer the down BUT if Ra Kismet prefers the sit up position, he'll win both positions would of course, be grand but I am feeling that the sitting up is going to be the one he'll like best - I think he feels that he looks cuter in that position - so that's the one I will work with using all you have said.

Now I'm sorted out, I am sure Ra Kismet will quickly learn shy, not boasting but he's the quickest learner I've ever owned (even over pure bred rescue German Shepherds). of course not all he learns quickly meets with my approval!

That's a grand suggestion to use a lure and then reward with the treat. Never used a clicker, must get one, as I think that's a better way of teaching, then give the reward as you do AFTER. I will go over to the pet shop and see if they have training clickers.

Again thank you so much, it's fantastic knowing there are people willing and able to help with my problems

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"with the lure then treat. Mistake I've made too, rewarding too late AFTER the paw has come off my arm"//

You CLICK when he is in position you want, but he can be standing or doing whatever when he gets treat. A treat comes within seconds after the click,
but, it's the timing of the CLICK that matters most, not the timing of the treat a few seconds later. You can have broken the pose to give treat, but CLICK during exact correct pose.
see?

I try not to break a pose to give treat, but, sometimes, i have to. but you hold pose to do the CLICK, and then, if you have to break the pose to reach your treat... then you have to.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//" Never used a clicker, "//

OHhh, i didn't know that. Lol, i can't even remember now, how to train WITHOUT using a clicker!!
Yeah, get a clicker, makes big difference in how fast a dog "gets it".
Here is thread on getting started with clickers:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/getting-started-with-a-clicker-for-newbies.5023/

Here is thread on what kind of clickers various member prefer:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/fun-question.4921/page-2
^do read Pawtential's post in reply #26 there, very clever idea.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I have been guilty of rewarding Ra Kismet for tricks he offers up"//

lol, you are right, can't blame the dog, if he IS getting rewarded for doing it wrong, so far as HE knows----> that treat means you DID want THAT!


If my dog gets antsy or frustrated,
i ask for a trick he wants to do, or knows very well---REWARD THAT---to please him,
and THEN return to the trick we ARE working on again.

 

[tigerlily46514]

one other thought,
it's also possible to train a dog to put ONLY ONE paw over his eyes for "shy". That is a LOT easier if you want the dog to do this while sitting up in beg position.

 

[MaryK]

Thank you so much Have read/downloaded everything on clickers and have saved the insect clicker ebay site (the other two don't deliver worldwide) But just LOVE the insect clickers. Will check ebay Australia just in case they are there, postage will probably be about the same but delivery time may be faster.

With your help, this morning Ra Kismet got the 'both paws on my arm and muzzle down to arm level' very quickly. I will work on that for a while. Also did a little re-training on just the drop command - he hasn't forgotten - just got confused I think (obviously my fault).

How do I train 'one paw over the eyes"?, Haven't seen that done and it sounds cute and we like cute - well he's so cute have to 'milk' it don't we

I can really see the benefit of training with clickers, as the 'good boy' etc. is something I use all the time, training or otherwise (along with lots of other endearments ) Cannot wait to start and if dogs learn quicker with clickers, then I shall be soon looking for new tricks to teach the boy

I have always done as you suggest, when he gets the 'mule look' I will wait a moment or two just in case he decides to do what I want, if he doesn't - NO REWARD - but do a trick he loves and reward that. Plus I always end training with a trick he loves most, a captured trick, walking all ways on hind legs (found he could do that when he 'thieved' fruit off the trees).
When we end our 'official' training session, he's off out to play with his soccer ball, the VERY BEST treat going- actually decided soccer playing was better than a walk last night when partner let him out just as I was about to put on his lead etc. The ONLY 'problem' is that in the middle of training, when he's performed correctly, he will race to the door but bless him a 'come back here you scamp/tinker' and he races back looking jolly and ready for more training

I can see the benefits too of using on walks. Unfortunately he HAS TO by law remain on his lead here but my biggest problem there is that so many people want to pat him that now, if someone especially with dog, doesn't stop, he gets a bit over the top. Now I have to at times, get him to sit, which he does quickly, before proceeding. Otherwise it's 'he's still learning' . Little chap missed puppy pre-school and the training school nearby, the one I could get too, was awful to say the least. So he's having to be trained without support but all in all he's doing really well. And now with this site - watch out world - the kid will be on a roll no pun intended

 

[MaryK]

Hi quick up date. Checked e-bay Australia, didn't have the insect clickers but did have the i-click, which I saw on the other thread was also highly recommended. Ordered one as it will arrive in 2-3 days. Am also going to order the insect clickers but LOL they will take a lot longer to arrive. Am impatient to start with the clicker.

 

[tigerlily46514]

YAY!! Keep us posted, how you like it and all! This is exciting can't wait to hear what you think of it!

 

[Evie]

Mary - clickers are wonderful things

I taught Evie sit, down, rollover, paw and was trying to teach her to Bow when I joined this forum and finally gave in and bought a clicker. It helped Evie understand Bow in just 2 days of training when I'd been trying to teach it to her for weeks! It just makes it so much easier for you to communicate with your dog the exact moment that it's doing the thing you're asking for.

Just remember when you get your clicker to "load" the clicker so that your dog understands that click = treat BEFORE you try and train using the clicker. In other words, spend a couple of sessions with your dog infront of you and simply click - then reward over and over again until you get to the point that when you click, your dog is looking at you, anticipating a reward. Then you are ready to start training with the clicker

I've heard a few people have problems when they dont do this and instead ask the dog to do a 'trick' which they already know such as sit (and then click and reward) and instead of the dog associating the click with a treat, the dog starts to associate the click with 'my owner is asking me to sit'.

So just make sure you dont skip that step because it's very important. And i'm sorry if someone else has already said this in another thread (I've not been on the computer much lately)

Goodluck~!! - and we'll have to catch up soon (after Evie's recovered from getting desexed today) for some training

 

[MaryK]

Hi Tiger Lily and Evie,

LOL checking post box every five seconds even though I know it's not quite due as yet

Will definitely keep you posted, it sure is exciting can hardly wait. Just realized, I kinda use click already, as I click my fingers but with the proper clicker that will make life so much easier for Ra Kismet and me

Evie, thanks for the reminder to 'load' the clicker, I did read it elsewhere but never apologize for giving good advice, it's always welcome and a timely reminder for impatient people like me I'll load up the treats and click away BEFORE using it for training tricks No problems with getting Rakins to sit, while we load the clickers - LOL especially with the thought of a treat in his mind. Can see why it's so important to load before tricking, good to keep that in mind. Will also do more re-training with recall - he's slack on that one - once the clicker arrives.

Ra's doing well with 'are you shy' so once that clickers in use, watch out world

Give Evie a big ((((hug))))) she'll be around two weeks I guess before she can start training with my boy, he's boisterous, so wouldn't want any harm to come to her


This forum rocks thank you all so much.

 

[MaryK]

Should clarify Ra sitting - he just does that when he's in front of me but will remember NOT to say sit and click. Is it o.k. if he doesn't (which would be unusual but you know dogs) sit when I call him and remains standing to click? I so want to get this absolutely right from the start.

 

[jackienmutts]

Just love this whole thread, I love when someone new discovers the joys of training with a clicker - it's truly amazing!! I'm not sure I understand your last question - but I'll try to answer it. When you first "load the clicker" don't ask Ra to 'do' anything, just call him, and whatever he does is fine. Whatever you're doing is fine - sitting, standing, whatever. But don't ask him for any behaviors. Just click/treat. Click/treat. Click/treat. Over, and over and over. You want him to associate that click with a treat coming quickly. The click becomes his signal that a reward is coming. You don't want the first time to be ..." Ra, sit." Click. Treat. To Ra, it could mean, hmmm, does that click always mean mom wants me to sit? Once he makes that association that click=treat, then begin training. A few short sessions is usually all it takes. They catch on quickly. Then start out with things he knows. Ask for a sit, then click/treat (and you may want to toss the treat a couple feet away, so as to 'reset' him). Ask for another sit, then click/treat (again, toss it, to 'reset' him again). Do this several times, and he'll get the idea, hey, every time I do what mom asks, I hear that click, and I get a treat. Then start with other things he knows - but no clicking til he gives you just what you want. The 'click' is the bridge between "yes, that's the behavior I wanted from you" and the reward itself. And you can 'click' way faster than you can speak. And your dog will come to understand that click really fast. Also, no need to click more than once, say, when your dog does something fabulous or finally understands and performs what you've been trying to communicate to him. No need to click 2 or 3 or 4 times really fast to announce your joy! Once click and a fast reward and lots of praise from you is all it takes. That click will come to be such a huge communicator to your dog, you'll be amazed. Have fun!!

I taught my girl "are you shy?" from both a sit and a down, using only one paw over her nose, using a post-it. She targets, and I put the post-it on her nose, asked her to target, and clicked when she pawed at it. I did it a few times, and she looked at me like HUH? And she started picking up her paw and putting it toward her nose - and getting clicked/treated every time. It didn't take long at all. Now "shy" is one of her favorite tricks, almost her default trick, cuz everyone thinks it's so darn cute, and she gets so much mileage off it. And trust me when I tell you, she's anything BUT shy, too!

 

[MaryK]

Thank you Jackiemutts. I really am so delighted with all the help, everyone is fantastic.
LOL sure hope Ra Kismet's first come to me isn't jump, though he rarely now jumps up when I call him, usually just runs over and sits down but will click before he sits, I can see why you don't ask him to 'do' anything when loading. LOL he'd stay on his bot sitting forever if he thought he would get more treats Click comes AFTER the right behavour when I start using it for tricks.

Can see that it would be faster than speech, also ' you're good boy' he hears a lot when not tricking or really doing anything other than being Ra, so the click=treat will have a definite connection in his mind.

Will get some post notes, did have some but cannot find them. They wouldn't hurt the dog. He's got to putting both paws on my arm for 'shy' but doesn't go past that, so post notes will work like a charm I am sure, together with the clicker. I was trying for him to 'hide' his eyes down under my arm but think I may change to paw over eye, as it seems easier.

Have a feeling once my chap has learned shy he's gonna get a heap of mileage out of it tooHis default trick at present is walking on his hind legs, actually a 'captured' trick discovered when he was 'thieving' fruit from the fig tree but can see shy as becoming the one he'll love most as he does adore people thinking he's just too cute for words - show off of the first order

Ra has that same HUH look too when he's not sure what I want. Plus the 'mule' look when he wants a treat and doesn't get one because I am phasing out treats with some of his tricks which he knows really well.

I'm combining his tricks which he knows well - 'right up' for walking on hindlegs/down roll over/shake and am giving him a treat when he's performed all three. The 'mule' look comes into play sometimes when he's done one and no treat is proffered

 

[MaryK]

Ooops goofed I meant WHEN the exact moment he does the trick not after, realized what I had said when eating lunch.

 

[jackienmutts]

Wanted to clarify something. The first time you're working with your boy, 'loading the clicker', IF he's sitting, that's just fine, no problem. You just don't want to ask him to do that, then click and treat, before he really knows what's going on. Don't ask him to do anything, just let him come to you and do whatever he does - sit, stand, stand on his two back legs , whatever ... and then just start click/treat, click/treat, click/treat, click/treat..... And btw, once you start using that clicker, whenever you click, even if you click by accident and/or at the wrong time (and you will, it happens), he gets a treat. It's the law!!

There's an old thread about beginning clicker training (someplace), and I'm thinking Kikipup (and others) may also have a video about loading the clicker so you can see just what we're talking about. It's about the easiest thing you'll ever do, and your pup will be amazed at what he's being 'paid' for ... just, well, nothing. Hey, cool, I sit here, listening to mom click a piece of plastic, and feed me - whooppee!!!!

 

[jackienmutts]

It was late when I typed the above fast, was on my way to bed, wanted to make sure I didn't leave anything important out or make any hideous typos - Kikipup? (sorry Kikopup).