Glass Walls - Slaughter Houses

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by Gracegeorgina, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. Evie Experienced Member

    Both my horses are 'rescue' horses of a type. I have Zeus who is a 5 yr old off the track TB, who I bought him from a racing stable as a 3 year old as he was 'too slow' and Jo is a station bred horse who was rescued as an abuse case... he has some serious mental issue that we're still working through 7 years later..

    We don't have a problem finding people willing to take on ex-race horses here, but we do have the problem of the racing industry putting ridiculous prices on their too slow, completely uneducated horses. But this is all very off topic lol

    Oh and I forgot to mention lol, Zeus will eventually be competing in Eventing with me :) If he likes it of course :D
    southerngirl and Gracegeorgina like this.

  2. Gracegeorgina Experienced Member

    Lol, maybe I should just rename this topic Animal rights :D
    Luckily here they give the race horses away. We originally got Red to train and sell on to a young competor (most likely someone we know) but have fallen in love with him ;)
    It looks like we'll have to share eventing stories now, bye bye dogs :D
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  3. sara Moderator

    I would never feed a dog a vegetarian diet. I believe that's extremely unhealthy and unethical, honestly. Dogs NEED animal protein and fat, and just because they can "survive" on a plant-based food, doesn't mean they "thrive". I've done my research too, and would never subject my dogs to that.
    southerngirl likes this.
  4. bekah1001 Honored Member

    I was so angry at that...nobody messes with Pokemon.
    Mr-Remington likes this.
  5. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    Hi Mary

    I hesitated a bit to respond to your post since Sara wrote a zinger of a reply on how it was unethical to feed animals vegetarian food, and I don't need any controversy in my life, but here goes.

    Calvin is (drum roll please!) vegetarian. Actually he's pretty much vegan. Not strictly, he's had treats that have had egg and meat, but for the most part he is. When I adopted him, he was eating one of the Honest Kitchen foods, no grain, dehydrated raw, made by angels, etc. ;) He'd been on it for months in his foster home, and it seems to be an excellent food, though out of my price range. Every dog is an individual, however, and when this individual (Calvin) came into my life he had hot spots on his legs and excessive eye and (sorry!) penile discharge. It was so bad that he'd awake with green crust along his lids every morning, and my dog walker would have to wipe his eyes again at midday. He'd been treated multiple times for ear infections. He was itchy as all get out, and he was a little overweight. This all screamed "food allergy" to me, so I switched him to a veg food to check if I was right, and sure enough all of this cleared up. I don't know which of the meats (it could be more than one I guess) he finds objectionable, but there's no doubt it was the food. As a bonus, his bowels became less productive and no longer had a knock-you-out stink to them.

    I haven't tried adding back in one meat at a time to see which one(s) it was, because I don't need to know at this point. Calvin is thriving on his food. He is a perfect weight, he is beautifully muscled, and his coat is gorgeous. I seriously get stopped on the street nearly every day because someone wants to comment on how good he looks, how brilliant his white coat is, and if they pet him, how incredible his coat feels. He regularly walks for miles, goes on runs, and can charge about at the dog park for hours. I had him checked out by an orthopedist (he has a form of dwarfism, which predisposes him to joint problems) and she remarked on what great a shape he was in--lean and muscular, the ideal physique for these short-leggers, according to her. And she's not the only vet to compliment us on his weight and appearance.

    So I can safely say Calvin is thriving on his non-traditional diet. It's totally possible that, just as a meat-laden diet didn't suit him, a veg diet might not suit another dog. I can only tell you it's going great over here for him, he's doing much more than merely 'surviving.' Heck, if sled dogs can do great on a veg diet, I'm sure my city boy can ;) And I don't feel bad or unethical about any of this.

    I will say that cats are different -- they are obligate carnivores, not omnivores like humans and dogs. They evolved to eat animal protein and fat -- no carbs necessary. So it's a 'nuther kettle of fish to switch cats to a veg diet, and I'd work with a veterinarian if you are considering this.
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  6. Gracegeorgina Experienced Member

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  7. sara Moderator

    Yes, that was very rude of me, honestly. I should have worded it differently.

    But I feel very strongly about this. Allergies are a bit of a different story, obviously, if meat is making a dog sick, than it's not for the dog. However, dogs are not omnivores (this myth dirves me nuts, because there are sooooo many who believe it), they have a carnivores teeth, and a short digestive tract, not meant to breakdown plant fiber. They are carnivores that have evolved, slightly, to be able to survive on what we eat (basically, they do not need taurine, though it's beneficial). Just because they can live without meat, doesn't mean they should. A friend of mine, who is a vegan, tried putting her beagle on a veggie diet. Maggie had dull fur, and was overweight and lacking in energy within the year. My friend, after doing a ton of research on the subject (prompted by her vet) decided the veggie diet was what was wrong, and switched to Orijen. Her skin and coat got 100% better, she lost the weight, and her energy level improved by leaps and bounds.

    but honestly, if a person is a vegetarian due to animal rights, is it right to feed your dog, who is a carnivore, a diet that is not as healthy, and is not what's best for them, just because you don't want to? There are ways to cut out the unethical treatment and still feed your dog meat. Feeding a veggie kibble, with an ounce or two of free-range chicken, or beef from your local farmer who raises and his cattle ethically, or going to a completely raw diet, only feeding from ethical sources.

    I love animals, all of them, but I hunt, fish, eat meat, and wear leather. I grew up on a beef farm in the summers and holidays, I got to see calves born, play, grow, weaned and get sent to slaughter. Yes, sometimes it made me sad, but it was part of life, and as much as my grandparents cared for the welfare and health of their cattle, and treated them gently and with care, they were always meant to go for meat, so you didn't get attached. Thankfully, my grandparents wintered their calves, so they weren't sent to feedlots, and were allowed their freedom until they were sent to slaughter.
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  8. MaryK Honored Member

    Thank you A & C. I really appreciate your post, so happy Calvin is doing so well going 'almost vegan'.:) I want to do what is right and best for my boys and this planet. Haven't found any veggie treats/food here though.

    I know cats are a different matter, again thank you, and yes I will speak to my vet also.
    Gracegeorgina likes this.
  9. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    Thanks, Sara, for bringing the response down a notch. I don't feel the need to convince anyone of my views on Calvin's diet, and brought it up just for Mary.

    As the nerdy science saying goes, the plural of "anecdote" is not data, and Calvin's poor response to what appears to be a good, appropriate diet (The Honest Kitchen) doesn't mean that all dogs would do poorly on it. Similarly, the case of your friend's dog doesn't reflect on how all veggie dogs do. Calvin is doing great, as I mentioned ...

    Ah ha! Agreement! In that the debate over omnivore status of dogs drives me nuts too. The internet is sure that dogs are carnivores, it's just the PhD/DACVN nutritionists and the general body of scientific evidence that says they are omnivores, or, if you prefer, carno-omnivores. Usually when someone roars that dogs are carnivores, it's just the preface to an explanation of how raw meat is best. Dogs are omnivorous, with the ability to thrive on non-meat food sources, but they have a preference for meat. Meat is calorie-dense and most wild canids would rather spend 30 minutes catching a hare than 6 hours roaming around for plant-based calories. Dogs digest carbs like pros (they don't need a longer small intestine to do this), and have carb-specific enzymes (like pancreatic amylase), plus modifications in glucose transport and brush border enzymes to 'prove' it. Unlike obligate carnivores like cats, dogs can use beta carotene (from veggies) as vitamin A; they can make taurine; they can synthesize arachidonic acid; they can use tryptophan as a source of niacin, etc. There is definitely one thing that everyone can agree on, one thing that is indisputable, is that dogs are not obligate carnivores.

    I think if the dog maintains his/her health on the diet, then sure. They are (let's say) carno-omnivores, they are not obligate carnivores like ferrets and cats. For many people, there are serious cost and supply issues in feeding 'ethical' meat. (For those with environmental concerns, there are additional restrictions on ethics! If people are starving and 1/3 of the world's food supply goes to feed animals for a minority of humans to eat ...) It's just a fact that a lot of dogs live long, healthy lives on a plant based diet. I have the view that the health of the animals I care for is first priority, so I will feed meat if it's essential to the animal's health. But since Calvin is doing great as a veggie, I am quite happy. My late dog had to have a copper-restricted diet and was mostly vegetarian (meat is packed with copper, as are a lot of grains, it was a huge headache) too, and he was an awesome specimen of a dog.

    For those with environmental and ethical concerns about feeding dogs meat, I don't think it's wrong to try a plant-based diet for the dog. Heck, even some raw feeders admit that some dogs do better with a bit of carbs in the diet, so we know dogs are individuals, and there are healthy options along the whole range of diets.

    A&C (the veggie dog)
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  10. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    P.S. It's also not true that feeding a plant-based diet will make a dog less of a dog. The chances of that are extremely low, in fact every reported case of a dog turning into fruit has occurred around Halloween ...
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  11. sara Moderator

    I am not a raw feeder, so I don't have that "dogs need raw meat!" attitude, but I have read enough about the debate, to be strongly on the side of the carnivores. I used to have a bunch of stuff bookmarked in case of a debate like this one, however, I killed my computer and lost it all, so it'll have to wait until I get a new one, and have been able to find the stuff again. I knew another dog, (a Westie) who was allergic to all meat proteins, and some grains (was allergy tested by specialists in the city) and was sent back to the breeder. She fed him Pinto beans, veggies and rice. The dog slowly lost all condition and was eventually put down. Now there's no ruling out that he had another allergy that wasn't tested, but the dog was in horribly poor condition when I saw him, whatever it was that caused it, I hope to never see anything like that again! (ps the breeder neutered both parents that caused the puppy to be born with allergies, and warned all owners of pups from either parent, so as to prevent the problem from being passed on)
  12. MaryK Honored Member

    Thank you A & C your advice is really appreciated. Fabulous post!:)
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  13. moetrout Guest

    I use to work in a slaughter house, it was nothing like that. I have never seen animals packed into cages coming in for slaughter. In the US slaughter houses are required to have a USDA inspectors. I don't know how anyone would get away with cruelty unless they were bribing the inspector. I'm not saying there can't be places like that in the video, but I am saying I doubt there are many. PETA is not beneath lying to sell their propaganda. There are 2 sides to every story and then there is the truth. Would you believe everything a slaughter house told you, no, and likewise you should not believe everything PETA tells you. Examine the evidence, consider what you know personally, and then think for yourself and make your own decision. Failing to do that and you are just part of the sheeple.
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  14. Gracegeorgina Experienced Member

  15. bekah1001 Honored Member

    What the actual fuck (sorry about the language)

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