Ummm.....help!

[Gracegeorgina]

Poesie is currently going through her first season.. Our dogs are not sterilised for 3 reasons (as I suspect I will be asked this question)
-we sterilised our first dog and it made her extremely ill for months. She was run over not long after, thus spending her final days in pain.
-we live in the middle of nowhere so male dogs are not an issue
-it is quite costly

AnywAy, we've always only had one set of neighbours ( even they are 200m away ), but some people have recently moved in a little further away. They have a blck lab.
A couple of nights ago we heard a dog barking our garden that was not ours, and went out to find the lab with Poesie. We took him back, only to find out that he was not neutered :/
So, I'm not worried about puppies in general (if she even is pregnant), but the fact that Poesie is only 14ins tall and around 14lbs, and this is a really BIG lab :/

I'm really worried about HER, what if the puppies are enormous?

As to whether or not she is pregnant, are there any signs to look out for? The owners of the lab didn't think it would be possible since she is small, but when I picked her up after finding them together she cried when I felt her side (so he definitely tried!) Besides, her mum was 8ins taller than her dad and that happened somehow

Anyway, I'm sure none of this makes much sens, but support, help, or advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Gracegeorgina]

He came back last night. The dogs were outside when suddenly I heard a deep bark (that was not one of my 4) followed by Poesie crying :/
I rushed out as soon as I heard her, and she ran straight to me (fortunately).
I'm pretty sure he got on her this time...
So I'm am now panicking even more... Will she be alright if she is pregnant??

 

[sara]

Well I'm not one to criticise about not spaying, as Mouse isn't either. However you need to keep her inside or out on a leash with you for the duration of her heat and a week or so after. It's not fair to risk her getting pregnant with a much larger dog. If she is pregnant by him, then yes she's at risk of having serious problems carrying and birthing the pups. I would wait a month then take her to the vet if you're even suspecting she's pregnant

 

[Gracegeorgina]

Well I'm not one to criticise about not spaying, as Mouse isn't either. However you need to keep her inside or out on a leash with you for the duration of her heat and a week or so after. It's not fair to risk her getting pregnant with a much larger dog. If she is pregnant by him, then yes she's at risk of having serious problems carrying and birthing the pups. I would wait a month then take her to the vet if you're even suspecting she's pregnant

I was told by our other neighbours that the dog was neutered, so it never crossed our minds that he would come here :/
We live at a dead end, surrounded by 50acres of woods, which is surrounded by vines, so we hadn't thought about tying her up - now she's not allowed outside without one of us being with her! She's already been in season for almost 2 weeks so it will hopefully be over soon!

 

[Gracegeorgina]

Poesie's mum, Poppy, didn't show until TWO DAYS before giving birth, which worries me....
My mum thinks the safest thing is for her to have an abortion if she is pregnant... What does everyone think of this? Is it true?

 

[sara]

Well you could do a pregnant spay... I don't think they get abortions. That's why I said wait for a month then go to the vet. They'll be able to tell you then if she's pregnant... then you can spay her if that's what you choose to do

 

[648117]

Don't you have a male dog?
How are you preventing him from mating with her or with your other female dog when she is on heat?

I don't think you should let any dog breed on their first season, I'm sure it's recommended that they be 18 months to two years old (fully mature) before having their first litter.
You seem to take a rather casual approach to your dogs having puppies.

If it was me I'd get her booked in to be spayed straight away. If she is pregnant and you have to abort/spay her the surgery will be bigger (the blood supply changes so that the mother can get nutrients to the pups) and cost more if she is pregnant. And that way you wont have to worry about any unwanted/risky pregnancies as she will not go into season again.

We had to do this with one of our cats when I was a kid. The cat was very small so we delaying getting her spayed but she managed to get pregnant at 6 months (we didn't even know she was on heat). We felt she was too small to handle having a litter of kittens (she had eating problems) especially if it was going to be a big litter. So we went for a pregnant spay, it turned out she was pregnant with only three kittens but we still don't think she would have managed. Then we adopted the father (a stray cat), he kept hanging around after we got her spayed so we slowly got him tame, fed him up and kept him.
We still have the girl cat, Acorn, she's 18 now.


Also, keeping female dogs entire can increase the chance that they will get cancer, especially mammary (breast) cancer, and Pyometra (which is life threatening and expensive to treat).

So if there are no health reasons (eg, heart too weak to handle surgery, old age, allergy) to avoid spaying her then I would do it.

 

[sara]

But spaying increases the risk for alot of other diseases and cancers. Yes, pyo and mammary cancers are at a higher risk, but hypothyroidism, bone cancers, obesity, urinary and kidney issues among others are greatly increased. Also ovaries have been linked to longevity. Nope if you can control your dog and are comfortable with thr risks, then you can spend the time to decide what you feel is best. However, if you are unable to pevent pregnancy, than please spay her.

 

[Gracegeorgina]

Gilbert is neutered.
Like I said, we had been told that this lab was neutered, which obviously turned out to be incorrect. It's not as if we just let Poesie go where she pleases - this dog came into OUR garden at eleven at night! To be clear, we had no intention of breeding, ever! Gilbert was around 10ins shorter than Poppy and was 6months old when he got her pregnant. Poppy has always been naturally very skinny, and after her season we monitored her for signs of pregnancy. we had never caught gilbert in the act - he never showed any interest. We presumed that due to his age and size, it was alright!
Poppy really didn't gain any weight whilst pregnant, a couple days before we noticed that her nipples were a little larger than normal - but that was the only sigh. Her behaviour did not change beforehand.. Nothing! As soon as she gave birth, we called the vet to make an appointment for Gilb!

Like I said, spaying made our first dog extremely ill and I would not want to do it unless it way absolutely necessary. (we have spoken to the neighbors and made sure the dog does not return, so that should not coninue to be a problem)
I know risks come with a pregnant spay, but is it safer than her having the puppies, if she is pregnant? Or does that depend on the number do you think? I just want what is best for her.....

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

But spaying increases the risk for alot of other diseases and cancers. Yes, pyo and mammary cancers are at a higher risk, but hypothyroidism, bone cancers, obesity, urinary and kidney issues among others are greatly increased. Also ovaries have been linked to longevity.

Sorry, Sarah -- any peer-reviewed scientific references for this?

There is a lot made of a certain study comparing numbers of neutered vs unneutered dogs with XYZ disease. Since we don't autopsy every dog in this or any other country, there is an unavoidable bias in numbers as these are the reported diseases in dogs who are seen and diagnosed by a veterinarian. How many dogs die of undiagnosed hemangiosarcoma on their chain in the backyard? Perhaps extremely high numbers -- we don't know, because the dogs just die and are buried. My family's hunting beagles, all unneutered, would nearly always die without the cause being known. These numbers aren't included in that certain study, because they never received veterinary care. If all the dogs who pass away were autopsied, we would have solid numbers on this. Right now, we don't. I think telling people that spaying increases XYZ disease/cancer risk should be backed up by solid scientific info, and if it's not, then that should be made clear. We're not going to agree on this subject in general, I know. I actually think there's just a clear lack of evidence here; I think it's unlikely that everything and the kitchen sink is caused by s/n, but it's possible some stuff is -- we don't know.

We do know that mammary gland tumors are rare in early-spay dogs (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3892866), and that pyometra is impossible without a uterus.

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

Poesie's mum, Poppy, didn't show until TWO DAYS before giving birth, which worries me....
My mum thinks the safest thing is for her to have an abortion if she is pregnant... What does everyone think of this? Is it true?

Toy breed dogs often need help with giving birth even when bred to another dog of the same breed, and that sometimes includes an emergency C-section which is quite costly. A toy dog impregnated by a larger dog is a recipe for emergency C-section, so yes it is safer to spay in that case. Toy dogs may also have trouble maintaining calcium levels, esp. when having to nurse very large puppies or multiple puppies at once.

Being ill for months after a spay is highly abnormal. Was her trouble diagnosed? "Having been spayed" isn't a reason to be ill for months afterward -- I hope the veterinarian who did the surgery did a thorough work up for you.

An x-ray or ultrasound (sonogram) will show if she's pregnant, once she's farther along.

Regarding cost, some animal groups offer low-cost s/n coupons; some municipalities and shelters also offer discounted services, sometimes for a special event only.

 

[Pawbla]

Uhm, I'd take her to the vet. This is one of the many situations you will have in which not spaying will be more expensive than spaying.

Also the fact that your previous dog "became very ill" after being spayed means nothing, because it could be the result of the spaying or not, but only the vet could say. Maybe she licked herself too much and she got an infection, or maybe the vet was a bad vet and did the surgery incorrectly, or maybe she had an underlying problem that surfaced after the surgery (it is, after all, a surgery). If not, there's no reason your dog became ill BECAUSE she was spayed.

You should get an ultrasound for your dog, like Adrianna said, and contact your vet, if you really don't want to spay your dog. If want to spay her, do it as soon as possible.

 

[Gracegeorgina]

Being ill for months after a spay is highly abnormal. Was her trouble diagnosed? "Having been spayed" isn't a reason to be ill for months afterward -- I hope the veterinarian who did the surgery did a thorough work up for you.

An x-ray or ultrasound (sonogram) will show if she's pregnant, once she's farther along.

Regarding cost, some animal groups offer low-cost s/n coupons; some municipalities and shelters also offer discounted services, sometimes for a special event only.

We changed vets. We're not entirely sure what he did, but he certainly did something wrong.. Some friends had him spay their dog and the same thing happened!
I live in France, so unfortunately such organisations don't exist :/
Thank you for your advice

 

[Pawbla]

Ohh, such organizations exist everywhere. I live in Argentina. If there are such organizations here, they're practically everywhere. You should ask your local rescue groups (probably you can find one through google or facebook).

I hope you can spay her and everything ends up being fine.

 

[Mutt]

I wouldn't go for an injection ("abortion", I can't come up with the correct name right noe) of the puppies as this is more harmful for the dog than the pregnancy, I would however get her spayed, she is way too young and the size difference is too big!

 

[Gracegeorgina]

Well, she's definitely pregnant...
We spoke to the vet and he had told us she needs a series of injections to 'kill' the puppies :/
She has to get the first on Friday...

 

[brody_smom]

My neighbors just adopted a puppy whose mother was a min pin mix and the dad was a rotti mix or something. There were only 3 pups and she had a hard time producing enough milk, but they were able to save all the pups and mom is fine. Is this really the only option?

 

[Gracegeorgina]

My neighbors just adopted a puppy whose mother was a min pin mix and the dad was a rotti mix or something. There were only 3 pups and she had a hard time producing enough milk, but they were able to save all the pups and mom is fine. Is this really the only option?

I don't know.... It seems the majority is saying that it's better for her to have an 'abortion', though I'm obviously not happy about any of this ....... That's why I started this thread!

 

[southerngirl]

I don't know.... It seems the majority is saying that it's better for her to have an 'abortion', though I'm obviously not happy about any of this ....... That's why I started this thread!

I would start doing as much research about this as you can before Friday. And based on your research as in other dogs who have had a large dogs puppies survival than decide. But in the end do what You feel is best for Poesie.

 

[brody_smom]

I was talking to my neighbor again last night. The dad of the pups was actually mastiff/staffie. OUCH! How the little female even survived the copulation is a miracle. But the puppy is adorable and so calm.