Raw Feeders - Vegetables Or No Vegetables?

[Jukes]

I've been feeding Jukes raw food for 1.5 years now. I follow the ration of 80:10:10 - meat:organ:bone.

For example this week he had:
1. Beef brisket
2. Lamb Shank
3. Chicken Backs
4. Goat kidney and goat heart
5. Whole Rabbit
6. Mackerel
7. Beef liver and tongue

Last week he had:
1. Whole Duck
2. Venison heart
3. Lamb shank
4. Sardines
5. Goat ribs
6. Beef heart and liver
7. Pork hock and pig feet

He also gets one raw egg per week.
But after reading other posts it seems a lot of people seem to have much less meat and more vegetables and starch. What vegetables if any do you give and what are the benefits of these to the dogs? Also what's the benefit of starch for the dogs - is there any

Thanks for any answers

 

[Jukes]

What about Alfalfa and kelp powder - is this any good?
Fish liver oils? - I feed fresh whole fish once a week, so I think they get oil from that but I though I'd ask anyway.
Yoghurt/Cottage Cheese - are these in any way beneficial - there is so much stuff on the internet - it's hard to know what to believe.
Also some people feed eggs every day - is once a week okay

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to figure out whether I'm missing something crucial or not.

 

[charmedwolf]

I don't feed veggies except as maybe a snack when I'm training. They don't need it so it isn't really important. I know some people that are die-hard "dogs must have veggies", I'm not one of them.
I don't know about the kelp powder, it isn't something I use but the alfalfa is something that I use on a strictly allergy situations as it helps the body produce natural anti-histimines and reduces allergen responses.
For the fish, you should be good. Usually they get enough oil if you feed fish. The capsules are just suggested to those that don't have access to fish.
Yoghurt is for calming the digestive tract and can be good if you have a dog that has gas regardless of food. Again I don't know about cottage cheese as I've never feed it.
My canines get eggs maybe once or twice a week depending on what else I'm feeding so you should be good.

Your "menu" looks really good so don't worry!

 

[Foolishness&Fluff]

We feed raw, but we are also a no veggie household. In the prey model diet (the 80/10/10 you mention) Veggies are not needed! Even when my dogs are given whole prey, they shake out the intestines, which is where barf feeders claim that veggies come into a wild canids diet. I feed eggs maybe once weekly, and always have a fish based meal once a week. Other than that, no supplements! It is wonderful what a simple natural diet can do for your dog, isn't it?

 

[whipple]

I dont fully feed raw to my dogs. My ferrets eat raw and granted they cant digest anything but meat, they never get veggies. My dogs wouldnt either if they were on a fully raw diet, except treats, and then only carrots. Less mess then other treats. But nothing but meat in the staple diet.

 

[mewzard]

We don't really feed veggies either, Occasionally i'll blend up all our left overs and add it in, but she would eat around any chunks of veg. She doesn't get any supplements, she has eggs and occasionally the odd squirt of garlic puree... supposedly it keeps fleas away.
At grandmas she's allowed to have the left over veg but again she doesn't often eat them. She does however love fruit! She adores apples and blackberries and used to eat banana's but seems to have gone off them.
As Foolishness and Fluff said about taking out intestines, Oka did this with her whole rabbit too....i believe i read somewhere that Wolves don't eat the stomach or intestines either.

 

[sara]

Dogs are scavengers, and have evolved over arguably 20-30 000 years to eat what humans throw out... they can survive off of pretty much anything.

Dogs may not need fruits and veggies in their diets, but there are many beneficial properties to them. But they do have the short digestive tracts of carnivores, and cannot digest plant matter easily, so pureed veggies will get digested, but whole wont. My dogs aren't fed raw, but I do give fruits and veggies as treats. Frozen Blueberries are a favorite, as well as Asparagus, Broccoli, Carrots, Apples, Bananas, Spinach, Oranges, Beans, and Cauliflower. I also feed ground Kelp, as a digestive aid and for it's many beneficial properties... they dont NEED it, but it's definitely worth it.

A Coyote will dig carrots out of the garden, and eat fallen apples, they dont NEED them, but they LIKE them... unless they're starving, then perhaps it's a good way to keep up their energy 'till they can catch a rodent or two.

One thing my dogs DONT get, is any sort of grain

 

[JoAnne]

Ash has been eating raw now for about six weeks. The only thing I don't like is that its hard to find a location that makes both of us happy. This morning he came in with a chicken leg that he had obviously buried and when I shooed him back outside with it he happily gobbled it up. Unless I'm babysitting another dog who looks interested in what Ash is eating, he objects to having to eat in his cage. Sometimes I wonder if he's refusing to eat because of the cage. Any suggestions?
I do toss him a veggie occassionally, more as a treat and its usually a baby carrot of brocolli stem. I haven't tried fish yet, and although I'm not worried about it, sometimes he'll refuse a meal. When he does I find myself worrying about whether he likes this as much as I do because it would be a whole lot cheaper to feed kibble. Sunday, I noticed my shopping list only had one item on it for me and the rest was for either the dog or the parrot!

 

[charmedwolf]

Kratos, Kona and the new puppy has found the joy in the peaches and plums that fall off of the trees at work. They have never eaten a pit (Trust me I find them all over the office and porch) and seemed to really enjoy them.

JoAnne- It's good to hear that Ash is doing well! Maybe an old blanket or towel can be placed where he wants to eat instead of in his crate? It could be that the crate is causing him enough stress that he doesn't want to eat.

Sara- A person can eat junk food their whole life such as a dog can survive off of anything. It doesn't mean it is as healthy as it could be. Just saying. Also, I'd caution on too many fruits especially with smaller dogs like yours as it's sometimes too much sugar for their bodies and can make them sick.

 

[JoAnne]

I'll try that. I know if he's hungry he'll eat and he's never been a great eater. Is it possible he just goesn't like raw? I bought a freezer just for him and if I have to go back to kibble it will be his new house; with or without the cold!

JoAnne- It's good to hear that Ash is doing well! Maybe an old blanket or towel can be placed where he wants to eat instead of in his crate? It could be that the crate is causing him enough stress that he doesn't want to eat.

Sara- A person can eat junk food their whole life such as a dog can survive off of anything. It doesn't mean it is as healthy as it could be. Just saying. Also, I'd caution on too many fruits especially with smaller dogs like yours as it's sometimes too much sugar for their bodies and can make them sick.[/quote]

 

[sara]

Kratos, Kona and the new puppy has found the joy in the peaches and plums that fall off of the trees at work. They have never eaten a pit (Trust me I find them all over the office and porch) and seemed to really enjoy them.

JoAnne- It's good to hear that Ash is doing well! Maybe an old blanket or towel can be placed where he wants to eat instead of in his crate? It could be that the crate is causing him enough stress that he doesn't want to eat.

Sara- A person can eat junk food their whole life such as a dog can survive off of anything. It doesn't mean it is as healthy as it could be. Just saying. Also, I'd caution on too many fruits especially with smaller dogs like yours as it's sometimes too much sugar for their bodies and can make them sick.

You dont have to tell me not to feed too many fruits... I know that. (in humans, it's not great either) My dogs get fruit and veggies as treats, and never get sick off them. They are a healthy weight, and have activity levels matching their breed types. A couple of them do get sick off raw meat (Oliver, for one, and Scout cant eat chicken) I have tried feeding raw (Prey model, 80-10-10) to see if, indeed it was better. Oliver was seriously sick, Scout and Zoe had diarrhea, the only dog that was OK was Mouse. I joined a raw feeding yahoo group, and informed myself as much as possible, but after 3 weeks (Oliver only lasted 5 days, he was a mess! Vomiting, diarrhea lethargy) of diarrhea, then large amounts of soft, irregular poo, I went back to kibble... If it's going to make my dogs sick, it's not worth it. To this day, even a small amount of raw meat or egg will give Ollie the squirts for a couple of days!

What I hate is raw feeders telling people to ignore vets, that they dont know anything about feeding, and that dogs are wolves, and therefore should eat as such. Dogs evolved from Wolves, but not the wolves from today, the wolves they evolved from were more likely to scavenge, had different pack structures, and were smaller. They had way more tolerance for people, a greatly decreased flight distance, and a longer window for socialization. A completely different animal than todays wolves, who evolved to avoid people, especially in the last 1000 years, as people set out to eradicate wolves, thinking them a menace.

They are not even close to the same animal anymore, and after 30 000 years of eating people's garbage I dont think I need to feed my dogs raw.

But I am NOT saying to not feed raw, not in the slightest, many, many people feel their dogs are healthier, and if you feel that you want to feed raw, and your dogs are doing well, then go for it! I just know it was not for my dogs. All I'm saying is that a quality kibble is good too. And please dont think less of us that do feed kibble, my choice was extremely well informed, tested, and found perfectly good for my dogs.

 

[Jukes]

Thanks for the replies everyone!
I think I'll just carry on with what I'm feeding (Jukes's coat is nice and he appears happy and healthy), perhaps adding more meats if I find any - we got some llama organs today - I'm quite excited about trying them!

 

[what the fuzz]

Your menu looks great to me. I do not feed any fruits or vegetables, personally. I feed meat, bone and organs and add fish and coconut oils and some other supplements to help with immune support and coat health but that is it.

 

[Ripleygirl]

I agree too, the menu looks great but I would definately look into more oily fish - I am lucky as my hubby is a charter boat skipper therefore we have fish constantly on offer for nothing but is does wonders for Ripley's coat and we give some to other dog owners in the area too. Small strips of freshly caught Mackerel are my personal favourite as the oils in Mackerel are very good for her coat but smal strips of any fish are good as long as they are fresh enough. She also eats veg and fruit as training treats as she seems to love them..! I have also noticed that when I haven't given her some veg or fruit she eats grass (she is never sick after it so this is not the reason) but if she has some carrots, swede, apple, radish, peach, brocolli or cauli stalk etc she does not eat grass. This is just her though, my previous dogs although fed raw would not touch veg although they would eat a little bit of apple if they were wind fallen off the apple trees. I never tried to push fruit or veg on any of my dogs but do favour a raw diet, it just happens that Ripley, personally, seems to need a bit of fruit and veg - much to my surprise after my last dogs!

 

[Ripleygirl]

One of my collies, Tess (sadly now departed) would actually wolf through her food and any peas or anything we had stuck in there she would take into her mouth in gob fulls as she eat it all down and then pop them out one-by-one like a little popper gun - absolutely hilarirous! It still makes my chuckle now..!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yeah, Ripleygirl,i think fish is great for dogs, too.

my dog disliked fish at first, and i eat fish alllllllll the time.
But, i found out he liked warm, freshly grillled fish.

and overtime, he got so accustomed to fish, that he can now eat room temperature, or even cold fish now.

 

[Ripleygirl]

Yeah, Ripleygirl,i think fish is great for dogs, too.

my dog disliked fish at first, and i eat fish alllllllll the time.
But, i found out he liked warm, freshly grillled fish.

and overtime, he got so accustomed to fish, that he can now eat room temperature, or even cold fish now.

My hubby's sister's dog would not eat the fish we brought off the boat but cut in to strips (and obviously boned, as the bones can get caught in a dog's throat) and microwaved for 30 seconds and now he loves it and his coat is much better than is was. He is a very short coated lurcher x and had a dandruff problem and that is gone completely now he has fish every so often.

 

[madeleine]

I give raw aswell her. I make her own menu and she gets 465 grams food a day.
5% of that is vetgetables. That like 2 icecubes.... This i do because:
-small amount of veggies healthy for a dog.
-i replace the dirty stomach of a cow with clean stomach and veggies. and they do eat the dirty stomach of anymals..
Howeve all the veggies are all gone through a sap centrifuge. The dogstomach isn't build to break down the cellmembrane off plants. In other words, when you don't cook it light (never cook it completly through, that will reduce the value) or putt ot trough such a machine the dog will just poop it out again.

 

[madeleine]

And fish is great for dogs!
How else they would get the omega 3, 6 and 9 in there system...
This goes surrtenly for the fat fish (like salmen)
Dazzle gets an halve salmenbody or four to five sardines every week.

 

[sara]

You have to be careful with fish though, it must be frozen hard (or cooked but that defeates the raw thing lol) for a couple of weeks before feeding, due to parasites.