Discussion in 'General Dog Training' started by bekah1001, Aug 26, 2011.

  1. bekah1001 Honored Member

    When I walk Brody and there are other dogs near by he freaks out. He starts to whine and his fur on his back stands up. When we pass another dog he pulls to try to get to it. I wanted to get click to calm but you can only get it online. Any suggestions?

  2. Jukes Well-Known Member

    Does he only have a problem with other dogs on walks or everywhere?

    If you have a friend with a calm and friendly dog you could meet in a quiet park (nobody else around) and start quite far apart - then claim Brody's attention - make yourself really intresting - start talking in a really excited voice and offer him some amazing treats like little bits of chicken or sausage. Maybe make him heel or sit and then move a bit closer to the other dog - as you move continue to be excited and of course confident (if you're worried Brody will be too) hold some treats in your hand to keep his attention and then stop and offer him more treats - let him look at the other dog but since you'll be so exciting he will be too busy enjoying your company to react to the other dog. Continue this until the dogs are next to each other (you might not get to this stage at first - but just be patient and persistent and you can always call it a day halfway and meet again the next day - just always end on a positive note even if it means asking him to sit and the rewarding that).

    Then when Brody meets other dogs again he'll actually look over at you - since he's expecting good things - encourage this by getting excited and rewarding him again with high value treats - eventually whenever he sees another dog he'll give you his full attention and ignore the other dog.
    bekah1001 likes this.
  3. jackienmutts Honored Member

    Maybe you've said in other threads and I don't remember - how old is Brody? And is this new behavior? Does he have other dog friends? (That doesn't necessarily matter, lots fear-aggressive dogs are fine around dogs they know - it's the new/strange dogs that set them off). Also, is he just highly aroused, and in actuality wanting to get to them to play, or wanting to get to them to fight? Big difference. Brody's hackles can be up when he's highly aroused/excited - and still, in the end, only wanting to finally get to play, but with all kinds of conflicted emotiions.

    Good advice above - but if I were you, I'd order "Click to Calm", it only takes a few days from Amazon (are you in the US?, don't remember that either right off - sheesh, need more coffee here) and read it. It's a fabulous book, full of info, and may really help you and Brody, you'll understand what you're dealing with. Having a fear-aggressive dog myself, this book has been a life-saver for me and for others - literally. It should be required reading for anyone with reactive dogs.
    bekah1001 and Jukes like this.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    That is a good book, "click to calm", i however, found it VERYYYYYYYYYYYY difficult to teach Buddy to display calm behavior when i pull on his leash. I may have messed up something, but, i was unable to teach Buddy to feel calm when i pull his collar as a cue, well, not enough to help with seeing another dog. I could pull Buddy's collar, and he could appear calm, but soon as he saw another dog, he blew it. Didn't work for *my* dog.

    I did learn a lot from the book, but that method did not help *my* dog much, but, it might help your dog. The IDEA is lovely, but, putting it into practice did not help *my* dog to be calm IF a dog went by.

    But i have found OTHER ways to tell Buddy to be calm when dogs go by, though, but, pulling his collar was NOT one of the ways i told my dog to stay calm.

    IF your dog IS actually dog-aggressive, (and you don't give enough information to make that conclusion really)
    "On talking terms with dogs/calming signals" by Turid Rugaas was more helpful for *my* particular dog, (THANKS TX_cowgirl!!!!)
    but your mileage may vary.

    Dogs pulling to get to other dogs while on leash is NOT a sign of dog aggression, or else you might be leaving part out that shows it was an agressive move. Most dogs who have never been trained to not pull will tend to do that, whether they like or dislike the other dog.

    I myself do not think whining when a dog sees another dog is a sign of dog aggression, but, i could be wrong. My dog whines when he 'likes' the other dog.

    the fur up is not a good sign though, but, does your dog do that for all dogs? most dogs? dogs who are barking at him, or what? I guess we'd need more info to help sort if your dog is, or is not, displaying aggressiveness.
    (it also not impossible, that you might be accidentally conveying a fear of the other dog, and in your attempts to prevent contact, your dog might possibley think "mom is afraid of that dog, i will protect mom and get that dog!" this might not be a factor AT ALL, but, it is not impossible, *if* you are upset, yelling, yanking on your dog, tensing up, etc etc, your dog *might* misunderstand all that)


    here is some great stuff that DID help my dog: (ANYTHING by kikopup is great, she has a series of 5? 6? videos on dogs who bark on walks)
    I think #3 of the series might be most helpful to you.

    Have you trained your dog to heel? THAT helped my dog immensely. (who knew?) Or, is your dog on an extenda-leash?
    bekah1001 likes this.
  5. bekah1001 Honored Member

    Thanks everyone. Brody is 2 years old. Brody used to be a really bad puller but I got him to walk more on a loose leash but he will pull a little bit but I just stop until the leash is loose. Hugo is a puppy I puppysit sometimes and Brody raises his fur at first but is fien after. It is mostly with stranger dogs. He met one puppy and did the same thing (whining, fur raised) but he got in the playful stance. There is one dog, Bear, that we pass sometimes, he is behind a fence but Brody still goes crazy. He whines really, really loud near him. ( Brody dosen't know him.) When some dogs are near his face he will growl at them but he wont snap at them. Thank you again. I'll try and order it... I'll have to convince my mom.
  6. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    order what?

    If you are ordering "click to calm", i haven't yet met one(1) owner of a dog-aggressive dog, who WAS able to use the method in that book.

    ONly *The Author* of the book was apparently able to teach her dog to be calm to seeing other dogs by pulling his leash tight. The rest of us poor slobs out here working with aggressive dogs have not much been able to make it work for *our* dogs, it seems, but, maybe all of us are doing it wrong.
    BUT READING IT WON'T HURT ANYTHING!! You will learn things.

    It does have some good info in it, but, in practical use, it is wayyyyyyyyy hard to get that method to work in real life. I belong to a different dog website board specific for owners of aggressive dogs, and no one there has been able to use that "click to calm" method to prevent reactions, either. We all liked the info, yes we did!! but none of us have been able to do what she says she did in the book. (prevent reactions by pulling the dog's collar, after you've trained dog that a pulled collar = calmness).

    HAS ANYONE *HERE* ACTUALLY GOT THAT METHOD TO WORK IN REAL LIFE?? with an actual dog-aggressive dog??? I'm sure somewhere, someone's aggressive dog stopped reacting to other dog's by conditioning him to feel calm if you pull his neck...
    .............i just haven't yet crossed paths with that person.

    AGAIN, Bekah, we don't know IF your dog IS aggressive or not, i'm just sayin, that book is great, and i used to think it was the best, til i read some other books on the topic.

    I think you might be able to use Kikopup's free videos on youtube, like the one i posted above, though, until you can get a book.

    Do watch that video up above again, Kikopup has some great tips about pulling, BARKING, and training your dog "Let's Go", also. that video above, is free, it's in front of you right now, and whether or not your dog is aggressive or not, it will probably help you learn to manage barking on walks. Kikopup has a series of 5 videos on barking while walking, that one up above is #3 in the series.

    and maybe i'm old school,
    but, there are still socialist libraries in most towns!! FREE BOOKS!!! WHOOOOT!! (obviously, it's better to OWN a book, but, if you can't buy one, you could read it via LIBRARY!!)

    BEST OF LUCK, i hope it shakes out that your dog IS NOT aggressive, i hope not!! keep us posted !! You are not alone! You can help your dog get better, i'm sure!! GO BEKAH!!!
    bekah1001 likes this.
  7. Anneke Honored Member

    You are saying what I was thinking, but I didn´t say it, because I thought it was just me, not being able to do it right:oops:
    As Soon as Cooper sees another dog, as far as the end of the street, he makes himself big, tail up, breathing is faster and louder. So I can´t click for any calmness, because he just isn´t showing any calming signs. Can´t get him to look at me, or distract him. He just focusses on the other dog.
    But it was interesting to read.
    I have my own dogwhisperer, fortunately(my boyfriend) He has been training with Cooper and now we are able to pass a dog without him freaking out! But he still shows all the signs, high tail, hairs up, staring. I am happy with this, because he doesn´t lunge out anymore. We have made progress!
    bekah1001 likes this.
  8. bekah1001 Honored Member

    I think I'm ging to start teaching Brody to heel then hopefully I'll be able to get him to be more calm
  9. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    I think that is stellar idea, Bekah, for any dog, is be able to heel on command.
    KUDOS TO YOU, and best of luck!!!

    I was stunned at how much that helped my gangsta 'act right' on a walk, is when he walked in a heel.

    I tied a knot in his leash, to mark where he should be, so i don't have to keep looking to see where-abouts he is.. I loosely carry the know in my hand, and leash is slack.......... And Buddy is just......there, calmly walking along so the leash is slack, right where he belongs!!
    (Buddy STILL gets his full-speed runs while running free in fenced-in empty school yards and fenced-in empty cemetaries, great for practicing recall......... but now, Buddy does his hood-walk in a heel).

    We ourselves learn a lot in the process of getting our dog to heel, too!! As usual, our dogs end up teaching US things! ha ha!! Isn't that so often the case?

    Here are some SHORT, easy to understand Kikopup videos to help you get started in the right direction:


    this one helped ME a lot--------


    bekah1001 likes this.
  10. bekah1001 Honored Member

    Awesome thanks for the videos!!!!!!
  11. jackienmutts Honored Member

    Well, sorry you disliked Emma Parsons book so much. I attended a class basically patterned off much of the book, she has a huge Yahoo group (of which I'm a member), and she also conducts classes on the east coast for agressive dogs, with quite a success rate, from what I understand. Because you didn't like one suggestion (and she certainly does not make that the premise of her book) I don't think it's necessary to scrap a book and all but call it useless. She does suggest that when emotions change, the behavior then changes. All she's suggesting by the "leash pulling" exercise, is that dogs have learned, by our actions/reactions, is that when that leash gets pulled, no good can come of it. And with reactive dogs, it's usually because a dog is coming, and we know what follows that. She suggests doing the exercise for our own dogs' good - to change the emotion behind that leash pull. If it doesn't work for you - no big deal. Frankly, I never even tried it - but I did work thru most of the rest of the book. It's packed with loads of good exercises and information. And I am very proud to say that I now have a dog that has gone from extremely reactive, needing probably a football field's length from another (strange) dog to avoid an ugly explosion - to now needing about 6' of space. She also now has the ability to meet other dogs slowly, which wasn't even on our radar when we started this journey.

    Yes, there are other books, videos, etc. Whatever helps any situation is a good thing. To basically imply that only the author was able to use methods in the book, while they work for no one else is just wrong. One exercise may not have worked - for you. Sorry to harp on this, but don't speak for me when you say no one can use what's in that book. I can give you as many that have used it, as you apparently can give me who couldn't. And if they couldn't use any exercises in the book, then they either didn't really read it, or they didn't try very hard.

    I do love Kikopup - there are a lot of fabulous videos. I hope you find all your answers there.
  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    OH, i never said the book is "useless", i never said i didn't like the book, i said all of us on the aggressive dog websites DO like the book, and i've said she WILL learn things if she reads it,
    and i've said there IS great info in the book, i've said MANY wonderful things about the book!! It DOES have many great ideas in it, but, i've yet to meet ANY person who lives with an aggressive dog who was able to master that "leash pull = calm" thing, not a one.
    It does SOUND like a perfect solution, and i wish it did work for more ppl than the author,
    and like i said, maybe i, and the others on the aggressive-dog websites i belong to, are all doing it wrong. But, i haven't met any person who WAS able to make that work for their aggressive dog. But like i said, there must be one somewhere, i just haven't met or heard of that person yet, who was able to re-condition their dog to feel calm by pulling on his leash in the actual presence of another dog.

    I *could* do that in my yard, (pull his leash and have Buddy react with calmness)
    and on the street if it was empty.

    just never worked in the presence of another dog...
    but, like i said, maybe i did something wrong????

    Jackie, if ANYONE could do that successfully, it's probably YOU!! Maybe you could try it, and help me troubleshoot what i did wrong or something..

    Lol about the football field, Buddy also reacted as soon as a dog was barely visible, but, he is also down to 5 to 10 feet, and sometimes, no reaction at all. And the reactions he does have now, are NOT the same level as they once were.

    I have learned ways to get him calm by dogs, but i found using dog language was the best thing for *my* dog, that and general desensitization work, really, it's a many-pronged approach to help Buddy, not really just 'one' thing that helped him make progress. And we continue to work on it, we haven't given up for even further improvement, who knows??
  13. BruceLover Active Member

    What I do for Bruce Is use a method I like to call PATM. It stands for Pay Attention To Me. I use a choke collar for Bruce's training and whenever he does something like what you explained I give him a little short pull and release. In horse language they are called half halts. I usually give him a couple of short pull and releases before he understands he's not going to go see the dog and starts to PATM! It's not you thats doing anything it's your dog needs to pay attention to you instead of the other dog. You need to put him in a comfortable environment. Let him know your there and your safe and sound. Hope this helps!
  14. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Well, Brucelover, all dogs are individuals, and we all must find our own ways to manage what we perceive to be 'problem behavior' from our dogs,
    but, maybe you *might* want to re-consider if there is a kinder, more humane way to manage what sounds like 'pulling' from Bruce?
    That choking thing is actually more dangerous to a dog's throat than most of us realize, there are many delicate things inside a dog's neck (like a throid gland for one thing, and the cartilage in their airways can collapse) that were never designed to withstand pressure of any kind, let alone being choked. Also, most dogs do learn to somehow ignore the choking and continue to pull dispite the choking going on, so it tends to be useless, and you will still be choking that dog every time he sees another dog, even a year from now.

    Plus, in my opinion, you might be teaching your dog to associate seeing another dog with choking.

    Here are some videos on how to manage pulling on the leash without using any cruelty:



    Brucelover, I'm not sure if you are choking your dog:sick: because he pulls? or because he barks?
    If it is barking, here is video #3 of a series of FIVE Kikopup videos on how to manage barking without using any cruelty: (you can find videos #1,2, 4, and 5 on the right hand side of the youtube page there..)

  15. bekah1001 Honored Member

    My brother new someone who had used a chokechain on a really excited retriever and the dog died because his throat haad punctured
  16. BruceLover Active Member

    Yes I know it's not the nicest way but we had a dog whisperer come over and told us it was completely safe and totally fine and doesn't hurt him at all. I understand some people might not think its a good idea but really if you do it properly he won't get hurt. And I'm not constantly pulling and tugging on his leash I just am doing a little quick tug. Its much more effective than continually pulling and choking him.

    I'm really sorry for your brother's friend's dog bekah1001!
  17. rouen Experienced Member

    If you're looking for a book I'd suggest Control Unleashed. It is only available online, I've found it on amazon. It couldn't hurt to get Turid Rugaas' book as well.
    Bruce, I'm only saying this because your dog cannot. There is plenty of evidence that shows that correction collars and some no-pulls tools such as head halters can cause irreversible and life threatening trauma to the neck. Esaphogeal, tracheal and thyroid damage are common among dogs who've been trained with correction collars particularly choke chains. this is why body harnesses are reccommended for small breeds.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  18. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Brucelover, i hope you don't feel bad, but i just can't agree with you, or your trainer, or if you lined up 1 million trainers who saw it your way, it's still cruel, it's still not effective, either.
    How many months or years have you been choking the dog so far??
    Please listen to SeniorDogTrainer there, SHE'D know, and to Bekah, she's not lying. that stuff DOES happen!!!
    choke collars do NOT always release when the dog stops pulling either, another reason they don't work, so the dog learns nothing. "i pull, i choke, i stop pulling, i choke."

    I have learned many things here, i have discovered from others, that i was doing things that i could do better, i just had been misinformed before i learned from the others here. We aren't born knowing which is best for dogs, we must learn it from others and from our dogs.
    It's not that i was a bad person, and it's not that you are bad person either, we just didn't know any better at the time.

    I'm sure you do intend to do the best for your dog as you can. Like you, i once did things in the past that i thought was best way, til i learned a new way.

    Absolutely ANYONE can hang out a sign, "dog trainer" or "dog behaviorist", even your plumber. Is no law against this in most of the country. Yes, there are also CERTIFIED trainers, and certified behaviorists, too, but that is not necessarily a 100% guarantee that THEIR way is best way either. It's up to you to decide if pain and fear is going to be part of your dog's life, or not.

    . Brucelover, you, as Bruce's protector, main teacher, and as Bruce's strongest advocate, you have EVERY RIGHT to pick and choose what seems kind to you, and what seems cruel to you..
    How do you know no damage is being done to your dog, or no pain is being done?
    I can find article which shows,
    in dog autopsy,
    they can easily spot the damge done, they can tell WHICH dogs had a lifetime of choke collars!!
    And it WILLL be a lifetime, you will NEVER get Bruce out of the choke collar, cuz he will pull his whole life.

    LIke i said, though, even IF IF IF IF IF IF choke collars were not dangerous, or IF IF IF they were not cruel,
    they simply do NOT work.

    The dog somehow manages to ignore the pain, and continues to pull......for years.
    You will meet people who will exclaim, "My dog is a really tough case, even after walking in a choke collar for 10 years, he STILL pulls!! and i still can not control him!!" It's cuz choke collars do NOT work.

    If you TRULY want your dog to stop pulling or barking (?) when he sees another dog, choking him will NOT do it. YOu will have to choke him for the next 14 years every time he sees another dog. There is a better way, please watch the videos????
    they are very short videos!! very easy to understand!!!

    think it over?? best of luck making the decision, Brucelover!! i know you DO love that dog!!
  19. BruceLover Active Member

    Ive just started it and maybe your right OMG! have I been killing my dog?!?!?!:( now I feel badly I guess I should start looking at these videos! But just to let you know he doesn't pull anymore. I will try these new methods tomorrow! Thanks so much for letting me see I'm hurting my dog! I really apperciate it even though it probably seems like I'm some annoying person. THANKS!:D
    bekah1001 likes this.
  20. Glenna New Member

    Wow! There's a lot of good information here. I will use it to train Daisy not to pull! Thanks!:cool:
    bekah1001 likes this.

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