do any of you guys use clickers or shaping training? i think this sounds perfect for several of these dogs. shaping includes click/treat for any small approximation of the behavior, then you up the requirements until you get what you want. and those who posted about some dogs not liking to roll over are very correct. some dogs just don't feel safe or it may hurt to do it esp on a hard surface. i suggest carpet, a dog bed, or somewhere safe and comfy. my older dog will do it but doesn't like to. my puppy flips over both directions on cue like a nut. so preference can have something to do with it. a quickie explanation about shaping - our trainer had us pick an object while her dog was out of the room. we picked a kid's shoe. her dog came in and she started click/treat when the dog looked toward the shoe, up the ante move one paw toward the shoe, then a step toward the shoe, move toward the shoe a foot. All this followed with click treat. the dog does need to know clicker and know that offering behavior and guessing is fun and the right thing gets treats. in about 1 minute the dog went over and touched the shoe with her paw. all done with the dog guessing, being click/treated for correct guessing, and the instructor rewarding small things than upping the ante. I shaped a rollover for my 1yo and trained the 4yo with luring and a clicker. so it can be done both ways...one may work better. training all the little bits and chaining them together whichever way you do it makes it all easier. train down, lie on side, lure/train the flip or roll, train the back up to feet. once they have all the pieces you can forward or back chain (add in one thing at a time) until you get the entire sequence. i go to a karen pryor clicker trainer and really love the shaping part of training and have learned a lot.