Nobody Ever Listens! [rant]

[Pawbla]

First of all sorry for my prolonged absence. At first I was very busy and then I wasn't feeling very well, so I've been off most activities for a while. I'm gradually trying to start doing stuff again, so maybe you'll see me more often :3.
Also sorry about any typos/repetitions/stuff in my post, I don't have my contacts on and I'm guessing letters here (I can't even read the "Create Thread:" thing, I just know it's there).

Today I need to tell somebody who understands about what happened, what always happens, what drives me mad every. single. time.

I was with my family (mom, siblings, aunt, uncle, cousins, grandmothers) at my aunt's house. They have a dog, a 7 year old border collie with aggression issues. She has never injured anyone, so nobody takes her constant growling seriously. She growls at almost everyone. and is especially aggressive to what you could lump into dominant/aggressive gestures (smiling and showing teeth, staring, showing hands in a claw-like fashion, patting head, etc). So today my cousin was teasing her, making her growl and then shhhing her. Doing all those cesarmillanesque things, like staring in her eyes, putting his hand over her head, lowering her head, and doing stuff I would never think somebody in their right mind would do to a growling dog.
So I tell him "I think you should stop doing that, she may bite you". But my aunt says "Nooo, she wouldn't bite! It would be very strange." Obviously, less than 10 minutes later, my cousin gets bitten. I-told-you-so. Dog gets kicked and yelled at, and gets a time-out too. Everyone keeps staring at her. I'm so, so sure this is a fear based aggression after everything I've seen. I can't believe this. The dog was getting kicked for biting after having been teased for at least 20 minutes. She is, after all, a very tolerant dog.
After a while, when everybody seemed to calm down, I proceeded to explain why what they were doing was very rude rude to the dog (to avoid saying "completely unacceptable") and they were like "yeah, but she has to know it is even more rude to bite". And I was like, "well, but you can't stare at her like that with your hand on her head". And my aunt said "well, she'll have to learn to live with that!". And then goes on about how their dog can't dominate them and all. Ugh. The we all went back inside, and my cousin was last to get inside. I was watching him carefully, and what do you think he does? He kicks the dog again. I can't believe it.

This hasn't been the first ot last time this kind of things happened.

Hosen, my GSD x Husky mix, is a very anxious dog, very fearful. I can't work with him as I don't live with him. He's bitten the other dogs and even almost my mom in situations I had predicted only minutes earlier. Why can't people accept that, you know, I know a bit about this stuff? I'm not a complete expert, but I think I know when a dog is going to bite. They can't accept they can be wrong, so they ignore me and what happens? People get bitten, animals get bitten. They are lucky it's not a vicious attack, it's only fear based or redirected aggression in some cases. But some day, a dog will bite and hurt badly, and I would have said he was going to bite just minutes earlier. And then I will feel horrible about it. Because, that's it. Everybody thinks they know so much about dogs by watching two episodes from the Cesar Millan show. They are all sudden experts.

I feel horrible.

Sorry if this looks like a complete egocentric post, it sort of is, because I'm basically saying that nobody listens to me. The problem is, they don't listen to any other trainer either. And this has consequences.

The major problem? The dog always looses.

 

[jackienmutts]

Oh, this makes me so sad to hear this. I'm so sorry you have to endure this - and I'm sorry the dogs do too. Your cousin going back and kicking the dog again is abuse, pure and simple. I need to sit and think about what may be a good approach, a way to maybe get thru to those who just won't listen - but wanted you to know that you can come here and rant anytime. You know you're always among those who understand - and chances are, we've "been there, done that", at least to so some extent .... meaning, we've maybe not been in your same circumstances, but at least been in that world of knuckleheads where people treat dogs "as only just dumb dogs" and do what they please, and act like jerks. And yes, are experts because they've seen an episode of CM. *sigh*

Have you - or would it be possible to - ever sit down with everyone and say there's something you want to discuss. Open it up and say you first want to discuss bullying (don't bring dogs into it), and ask if everyone agrees bullying is wrong?? (Maybe they don't see bullying as a problem). Bring up what it does to one's self-esteem, how it makes one feel, how it makes one angry, how it makes one feel one must constantly defend oneself, etc. If everyone agrees it's wrong - then ask them why then, it's ok to constantly bully the dog? And why, when the dog finally defends itself, after the dog has finally asked them stop (by growling) - and when the dog finally bites (because it just can't take any more bullying and teasing), it then gets kicked?? (and it's then stated it must learn to live with it). Why must the dog learn to live with it?? Why should the dog endure constant bullying??? If they still can't agree this is wrong, honestly, they don't deserve to have a dog -- and if it were me, I'd turn them in to Animal Services, and tell the officer just what you've reported on this forum. What they're doing right now is abusive behavior. They're teasing until the dog bites - and you're right, the dog loses, every time. The thing is, this dog may end up ultimately paying with his life, like so many do - and it's the humans' fault.

That's just my opinion, I'm sure others will chime in with maybe better ideas than mine. Stuff like this tends to get me immediately riled up, so perhaps calmer heads will prevail with some good ideas.

 

[southerngirl]

That is really upsetting to hear that the dog is treated like that your dog and the Border collie is treated like that.
Jakienmutts advice is great I just have one thing to add. When you start the discussion tell everyone that they are Not to interrupt one another while they are talking that way you will be able to get out why it's wrong for them to treat your dog and the Border like they are.

 

[Pawbla]

It's a good idea. I'm not sure they'd be willing to listen, but I'll give it a shot. I've explain my mother (of course I know her better and I can say things more straightforward) but she just doesn't want to acknowledge that, for example, when she chases the dog around the house screaming, even if it's just for giving him a time-out (at least she listened about that), he is completely terrified of her. Since that kind of episodes I actually trust Hosen more, he restrains himself in a very good way.

By the way, I can't turn them to the police, they don't even want to deal with extreme abuse (like a starved, mangy, and beaten dog), they won't bother in a minor case like this.

 

[MaryK]

I agree with all the above. It's absolutely horrible that a dog should be treated in such a manner. Makes me furious to read that people can treat a dog that way (or any other animal for that matter). And it is the poor dog who suffers. Don't worry about ranting, you're among friends here who understand how you feel.

I'd feel like 'dognapping' the dog and find him a new home!!!!!!!!

Maybe Animal Welfare not the police would be the people to contact.

 

[Pawbla]

We don't have animal welfare, we just have the police in my country . Haha, it'd be impossible to dognap her because she's not in a situation that makes it viable (inside or in the backyard, which is very secure), but it'd also be very cruel both to his family and to her. She really loves her family despite all of this, and the family is not all like that. The only one who does the kicking, I believe, is my cousin. I'd need to have a serious talk with him at least.

 

[Linda A]

How old is your cousin? If he were a child of mine I'm afraid I would kick his butt for kicking the dog!!!

 

[DevonW]

I understand your frustration. My mum's dog has severe fear aggression issues and she doesn't want believe he can be helped with training. The excuses she comes up with make me want bang my head against a wall, repeatedly, with force. And if I win the logic argument she just says he's her dog and she doesn't have to do anything about him He pretty much lives in a crate 24/7 she doesn't walk him because he's embarrassing when they cross paths with another dog.

I've been bit multiple times by him that required stitches because I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I still firmly believe that his problems can be solved. He's a smart dog who is eager to please and learns very quickly. I've been working with him but it's frustrating when you make progress and then she comes and does something stupid and sets you back again.

 

[2SpoiledAussies]

I hate when this type of stuff happens. It is way too common.

Recently, a girl from school who knew I trained my dogs (but didn't know me well) told me that one of my teachers was rambling on about how great Cesaer Millan was, thinking that we had some connection. I was so mad. We talked for like 30 minutes about how much I hated Cesaer Millan, and how his techniques were cruel and out dated. I haven't talked to this teacher since. It kind of shocked me how people like this teacher (extremely religious and thinks good in everything) could like someone so harsh. I plan on speaking out if she talks about him in class.

 

[Caiti]

I understand. Stuff like this makes me so mad and makes me realize how many people need to be educated when it comes to dogs.

My uncle owns a very shy and fearful German Shepherd/Austrailian Shepher cross. I once saw him kick her after she shied away from someone reaching to pet her head. I was livid.

It just drives me crazy how many people try to use his methods and dogs suffer because of it.

 

[DevonW]

I believe it all has to do with media and what people routinely see. I've only ever seen one show on Animal Planet and the likes that have a trainer that uses positive reinforcement (It's me or the dog) where as the amount of shows where trainers use the pack leader/discipline route are extremely common. Most people would see this as obviously the pack leader method works better as there are more shows using it, which is sad. Same with mainstream training books you find at places like Chapters (or your local book store) There are pretty no positive reinforcement books available in the dog section of books stores.

My older sister requested the book Uggie for Christmas so I got it for her, had I read it first I would never have given it to her. Uggie's "Celebrity Trainer" uses the pack leader method with discipline so obviously I'm training my dog wrong. She's the dog training expert now because she read something in a book, and I need to physically discipline my dog when he does something wrong.

 

[madeleine]

Best you can do, i think, is call in an expert to explain the situation and help them forwards.
Helps you to so you will not have to fitght the battle yourself and would be awesoms to have that learning moment.
Offcourse you need an approvement for an therapist, but it sure would help out in this situation.

 

[MaryK]

Very good suggestion Madeleine!!!!!!!!! Oh and I was only saying 'dognap' tongue in cheek.

 

[Pawbla]

It's me or the dog is awesome .

My cousin is about... 17 I think?

Madeleine, I've explained the situation to them already, but they don't want to understand. I can recommend plenty of people I know that have studied with me, but I doubt they'd be willing to listen. Still, I know this great guy who could help them... He can do the therapy (I can't even if they wanted me to do it, because I live in another city... I was there for holidays only) and he has a great method that involves using his own dogs for it. It's a great idea actually, but let's see if they are willing to spend some money on the issue. I'll talk to them about it.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. I knew this happened to everyone but it's always nice to know you're not alone.

 

[Pawbla]

Today he started lecturing me on how to hold my dog when he was "attacking" my kitty. Started to go on about how you have to hold your dog from his legs if he's the attacker. Only, my dog wasn't attacking my cat, he was playing with him.

 

[MaryK]

When it's your dog, be firm and polite say 'NO". Sounds like explaining is impossible, he's not listening. As to holding a dog by the legs, that's just downright cruel! I feel for you so much, you're in an awful situation. Stay positive and do all you can.

 

[Pawbla]

Holding a dog by its back legs in a dog fight is the most efficient way to stop a dog fight without getting bitten. Not like, lifting a dog (think about it on a 30kg dobbie, for example), just removing it from the other dog. It's uncomfortable for the dog, yes, but it stops the fight and prevents serious injury.
Yeah, I forbid them to keep handling the dog (it made him very nervous, because every time he wanted to move towards the cat he was immediately held by two or three people). I made it very clear that it was my dog, and my cat, so it was my decision, and they stopped it . I get very serious when the issue is about my dog, and everybody knows that xD.
Right now I'm not really angry about that, I just posted it here because it's so ironic/sad/funny he's lecturing me on dog behaviour and management after failing completely at it with his own dog.

 

[MaryK]

Holding a dog by its back legs in a dog fight is the most efficient way to stop a dog fight without getting bitten. Not like, lifting a dog (think about it on a 30kg dobbie, for example), just removing it from the other dog. It's uncomfortable for the dog, yes, but it stops the fight and prevents serious injury.

Actually 'splitting' as dogs will do to stop a fight between two other dogs is the best way to break up a fight. It means going between the two dogs, from the rear end for obvious reasons, and 'splitting' them apart. I've used this method myself and it's very effective. And no, I've not been bitten using this method either. It's the 'dog' way and the fighting dogs seem to 'respect' it.[/quote]

 

[Pawbla]

Splitting them how?

 

[MaryK]

Splitting them how?

You move in towards the rear of the dogs (no teeth that end) and go between them. Though I did use a soft broom rather than my own body, which I have seen done but by men who have more physical strength than I have. Using the broom, soft head going between the dogs, NOT to hit them or as a 'weapon' but as a way of getting between them, they move apart, then you or someone else can get hold of the dogs by their collars, scruffs if they're not wearing collars, and keep them apart. It's the way in which dogs will break up fights in the wild/pack, as they do not want injuries to themselves or to the fighting dogs, it's just not good for the pack. Basically you are using 'dog language' rather than human language, the dogs 'get it' that fighting is not on!

Hope I've explained it well enough, it's not easy to describe.