low-calorie treats

[dat123]

Okay, I'm calm . Now I can type !
The reason I choose that video is because, 1. its a male ( rare in a very female dominated sport ), 2. the handler wasen't using excessive arm/leg movements, 3. the dogs tricks were basic but still skilful and well executed.
Perhaps we call it by it's real name ..Canine Freestyle , forget "dance" , forget about the music, it's only really there for the spectators entertainment, forget about the costumes, thats just showmanship. Now, focus on the skill involved in doing many tricks, continuously for 3 minutes, with the dog in complete control, tranferring from one trick to another with fluent consistency. Surely you can appreciate the skill and training put into making something like that work, and be entertaining to watch.
I've watched many of your videos, and ironically most of Ellie's tricks are typical dog dancing moves. Which btw I would never have a dog do jumping or standing on hind legs before it was 12 months old, and hasen't let it's growth plates form to maturity.If you did that at training in Australia, you'd be reported to the RSPCA. You also mentioned in a post recently, about a video you liked, and quoted " makes you want to get out and practise". Yet that was a dog dancing routine !!!!!
Yes, I agree that there are a lot of BAD dog dance routines out there, especially on you-tube, which makes me cringe as well, they don't do anything for the promotion of the sport. But when you see a good one, it's very inspirational.
What about your own countrywoman, Mary Ray with her Heelwork-to-music, which is basically obediece with tricks throw in !!!!
Perhaps your hatred for the sport comes from somewhere else, maybe someone you dislike took up the activity, maybe your parents forced you to do dance lessons when you were a child , who knows !!
I'm not an " obedience" competition person, even though I train my dogs at home to sit, drop, heel, stay, come and wait, because it's important. You mentioned that dd is self-indulgent, what do you call an obedience trial ? It's.... hey, look what my dog can do..., my dogs better than yours, because I scored higher... Ever watched a border collie doing an obedience trial, their saying .." another minute of this and I'll commit suicide" . Then watch a border do agility, flyball, tricks, or the dreaded doggie dancing, and see the difference.
It's your choice to hate it, but don't dwell on it.
Anyway, my view, for what it's worth.

 

[Jean Cote]

I like doggy freestyle "dancing" from a training & performance point of view. It takes a lot of dedication and time for people to work and train their dog to do this stuff.

I don't personally participate in it because I don't really like to be the focus of attention, but a website dedicated to dog tricks should definitely be welcoming people who practices this sport.

I can see a lot of obedience work needed to perform; the dog has to always keep his eyes on the handler. The dog had to learn all sorts of different visual signals and cues and everything has to be synchronized.

Seems to me like a good package for anyone who wants to spend some quality time with their dog!

 

[leema]

I would never have a dog do jumping or standing on hind legs before it was 12 months old, and hasen't let it's growth plates form to maturity.If you did that at training in Australia, you'd be reported to the RSPCA.

I thought the same until reading Silvia's page here:
http://silvia.trkman.net/agilityisgood.htm


I really like canine freestyle, but I won't make CollieMan participate. Nor will I make him watch me look daggy.
I don't think anyone can get too possessive of their sport. There are so many sports because there are so many different interests. We don't need to get defensive if someone doesn't like our chosen sport.

 

[CollieMan]

IOkay, I'm calm . Now I can type !

Eeeep! That's you in calm mode? Okay, here goes...

Now, focus on the skill involved in doing many tricks, continuously for 3 minutes, with the dog in complete control, tranferring from one trick to another with fluent consistency. Surely you can appreciate the skill and training put into making something like that work, and be entertaining to watch.

I've already stated, twice in fact, that I can and do appreciate and respect the technical merits.

I've watched many of your videos, and ironically most of Ellie's tricks are typical dog dancing moves.

I've no doubt that some of the moves are incorporated into dance routines. That does not make them dog-dancing moves.

I would never have a dog do jumping or standing on hind legs before it was 12 months old, and hasen't let it's growth plates form to maturity.If you did that at training in Australia, you'd be reported to the RSPCA.

I'm not sure how to read that part. Of course, if you believe me to be cruel, you have a moral obligation to report that to the RSPCA here in England. That can be done very easily, and I'll happily provide you with my full address details via PM, to facilitate this. Just drop me a PM. I'm not in the least bit offended by it, but feel that if you feel that strongly about it, you should pursue it. I would.

Though, I must add, that if you do feel that way, I would respect you more for saying just that, instead of skirting around the issue. Rest assured, I'm not interested in suing for libel, and so you can be perfectly frank with me.

As leema has already answered, Silvia Trkman has been successfully fighting this strongly-held belief for quite some time now (and getting criticism for it). Given her amazing record for agility championships and her unquestionable loyalty to, and fondness for, her dogs, I know which advice I'd rather follow. I would dare wager that Ellie spends more time on her back legs and jumping, through her own desire, than she does at my request. I believe that nature is far more capable of judging readiness than we are.

You also mentioned in a post recently, about a video you liked, and quoted " makes you want to get out and practise". Yet that was a dog dancing routine !!!!!

And there was music, dancing, and silly costumes? Would you be so kind as to point me to this video, please, because I don't remember it.

But when you see a good one, it's very inspirational.

Inspiration is, by its nature, quite a unique thing. It rarely, in fact never, inspires me to do anything but avoid it.

What about your own countrywoman, Mary Ray with her Heelwork-to-music, which is basically obediece with tricks throw in !!!!

Waste of time trying to appeal to my patriotism, I'm a Frenchman.

Perhaps your hatred for the sport comes from somewhere else, maybe someone you dislike took up the activity, maybe your parents forced you to do dance lessons when you were a child , who knows !!

Now you are getting, forgive me for saying, a little silly, and a little personal. Let me put your mind at ease. There are no deep-seated psychological scars that are putting me off doggy-dancing. (At least, if there are, I don't know of them, and if I don't, then you trying to guess at them would seem a little pointless.) There were no forced ballet-classes, where I had to wear a pink frilly tutu, and I never once had to have a John Travolta poster adorning my bedroom wall.

You mentioned that dd is self-indulgent, what do you call an obedience trial ? It's.... hey, look what my dog can do..., my dogs better than yours, because I scored higher...

If that is really how you see C/O, then that is perhaps why you (I presume) choose not to compete. The handler should almost be invisible for the most part. There should be minimal cues, to the point where it's almost boring for the handler. It is never really about the handler. If you come away with the "my dog scored more highly than your dog" mentality, then you never belonged in the competition in the first place. If you came away thinking "my dog did its best today", then you're half-way there.

Ever watched a border collie doing an obedience trial, their saying .." another minute of this and I'll commit suicide"

In fairness, this isn't specific to BCs. Some aspects of formal C/O can seem quite boring for many "active" breeds. Whether it is or not, who really knows? I would say that you're right. That's part of the challenge of C/O - making it into something that the dog will do because it enjoys doing it. As you rightly point out, agility, flyball, dancing, etc. have that part much easier, as most dogs like to move around doing crazy things.

It's your choice to hate it, but don't dwell on it.

Do you have a mental picture of me sat here with red pens, writing "I HATE DOGGY-DANCING" on anything that will accept a pen nib, and shouting at anyone who passes my door "Oi, you! I hate doggy-dancing, I do. It's evil!". Please, be assured that it doesn't generally tend to feature in my mind from one minute to the next.

You do seem to be getting very worked-up, given that it was you who asked me to give you my opinion on the video. Perhaps, on reflection, that wasn't a good idea?

 

[dat123]

mmmm.
My post was in no way, meant to be an attack. If you took it that way, you have my deepest apologies. Perhaps my words were too direct, I should read it again.
The DTA is for friendly conversation, learning and exchanging ideas, not everyone will agree, which is how the world turns and makes it interesting.
I find yours, and other members, contributions very interesting, we won't always see eye to eye on every subject, but thats the learning process.
quote: You do seem to be getting very worked-up
Not at all . You may have read too much into it. Again my apologies.

 

[CollieMan]

No apology asked for, or needed. We can just put it down to misunderstanding and move on.

 

[l_l_a]

OK....back to the issue of low calorie treats for training!

I usually use my dog's kibble, as part of his daily ration, as his "baseline" treat. Since it's not super high value, it works well for training a new task when I want him calm and concentrating.

I do bring out the big guns (higher value treats) if working around strong distractions or for doing behavioral countercounditioning. Hot dogs, hamburger, dog food rolls, leftover dinner scraps...

Somewhere in between (a "medium value" food reward) would be dry dog biscuits or pieces of fruit or carrots. He likes veggies more than I do!

The size of the treats are usually around pea-size or kibble-size. Except for dog biscuits which I can't break that small, but I usually don't give him a full biscuit at a time, I usually break it up into as small chunks as I can. For fruits and veggies I cut them up into slightly bigger sizes since they are lower calorie to begin with.

The "healthiest" high value treat I have found so far is the dog food rolls:
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/DFRolls.html

I also like how they are dry so your hands don't get slimy like with other high value smelly treats such as hot dogs. And you can cut them up into whatever size so I cut them up into pea size bits with occasional bigger chunks to surprise the dog with.

however, different dogs like different things, so whereas this is a high value treat for my dog, it may not be for yours. Also, any high value treat if used too often will then get lower in value (from the dog's perspective) just because it loses its novelty and becomes expected.

 

[dat123]

I thought the same until reading Silvia's page here:
http://silvia.trkman.net/agilityisgood.htm


Some info , if your interested...

.... plenty more information available.

My comment on growth plates was not my opinion, but rather facts from vetrinarians, animal chiropractors, dog trainers.
It dosen't mean that your dog will get problems from jumping before 12 months, just means the risks are very high.

My youngest BC got oesteochondritis at 6 months, it was awful. Try keeping a 6 month old BC dead still for 6 weeks after a major surgery. Wasen't easy.
I'd hate to see anyone see their dog disabled for life , due to overdoing it at an early age.

 

[CollieMan]

I'd hate to see anyone see their dog disabled for life , due to overdoing it at an early age.

So the obvious question then becomes, what do you consider to be over-doing it? How frequently are you imagining such dogs to be performing these dangerous acts?

Surely, if anyone has overdone it, Silvia would qualify, wouldn't she?

I can't give any better response than she already has:

... Of course, you have every right to have your opinion, I don't care if you start after 12th month if you think it's in the best interest of your dog. I understand that everything you do, you do it because you believe that it's best for your dog and I don't want you to do anything different. I just want you to understand that even though I'm doing the opposite of what you're doing, I'm doing it because I believe it's in best interest of my dogs too. My opinion is based on researches with jumping horses, on facts that my boyfriend who is a doctor is telling me about development of human's musculoskeletal system, on my vet's opinion and on what she sees after she takes an x-ray of my 10-year-old dog (that had her first agility training at 7 weeks!) and on my own observation of mine and my students' dogs.

Yes, while you might think that making a young dog go through 5 low jumps two times a week is a trauma that might cause problems, *I* think that it's a preparation for long and healthy life, free of injuries. I think that if you keep your puppy away from activity, their muscle&tendons will in fact be so weak that a puppy jumping off the couch might end up with problems. I also think that if you don't jump a dog at all until 12th month and then heave jumps to full height in a couple of months, you're ruining your dog's joints which are not ready for the job and even more, since there is no muscle, needed for jumping, built in a dog like that (even if he is otherwise well fit and regularly on walks), stress on joints is really huge and this is something *I* would never do to my dog.

It’s like limiting running&jumping to a kid until he is 25 or so (that’s the time that famous growth plates that some agility handlers are x-raying to see if they’re closed before they start any kind of jumping with the dog, close in humans) and then all of the sudden make them play soccer two times a week… How good could that be for their knees??? In that game that kids play with jumping over elastic band (Gummitwist or Elastics), I did more jumping as a little girl as my dogs ever will and my joints are all fine, thank you for your concern.

It is my view that people need to stop being bound by sometimes extraordinary arbitrary limits, especially when it comes to something as varied as a dog's personality and physique. They each vary so wildly. There is no reliable "best age" or "right age" for anything that a dog does. At least not in terms of a global "catch all" answer. There is only one based on YOUR OWN dog.

And in case you think I'm just reckless, last month's challenge was going to be the handstand. This was Jean's suggestion, if I remember rightly. I advised him that I didn't feel that Ellie's front legs would be developed enough to cope with practising that every day for a month. (All other challenges were inappropriate for Ellie for one reason or another.) I then consulted with our vet and she agreed. My point is that for another dog of Ellie's age, it might have been perfectly fine. For Ellie, it wouldn't have been. (Most people will have seen her bandy li'l legs.) Though, let me stress, our vet was perfectly happy for the back legs to be stood upon "occasionally", and as for jumping, she encourages it in moderation in order to help build her up. You see, vets opinion varies too, based upon THE DOG, not all dogs.

I jut hope that you're not sat there thinking that I, and others, are just being reckless with the health of our dogs. I just don't see it as being the case.

 

[dat123]

Whenever did I use the word Reckless ??????
Read again.... I said .....I would never have a dog do jumping or standing .....

So, are you saying your agreeing with one persons opinion, over science and medical history ?

 

[CollieMan]

Whenever did I use the word Reckless ??????

So what are you actually implying or inferring then, because I'm getting confused trying to work that out.

Read again.... I said .....I would never have a dog do jumping or standing .....

As interesting and as noble as that is, I suspect there are hundreds of things you would never do, so why focus on that one, in the context of this thread? Perhaps if you could answer this, and the above question, things would be much more clear?

So, are you saying your agreeing with one persons opinion, over science and medical history ?

I'm saying that in the context of my dog, my training, the shows that I attend, and the dog handlers I speak with, yes I suppose that I am. (Though I know I mentioned my vet too in my previous response, and I can assure that Silvia is not the only one who holds the view that she does.) I don't see how much more clearly I can state that point. We seem to differ in that you believe there is a blanket statement that is suitable for all dogs, and I do not agree with that. In fact, never mind "don't", I just logically can't, based on what I regularly see with my own eyes, and hear with my own ears.

 

[leema]

I don't think either CollieMan or I are encouraging our dogs to jump and stand on hind legs purely because we idolise Silvia, and see her opinion above anyone elses. Instead, at least for me, Silvia has made me realise that there's no point listening to the 12 months, two seconds, fifty centermetres or any such ridiculous rules. The fact is that I know my dog and what it is capable of and what it offers.

It's not disregarding medicine or science. Atleast, I have read the medical stuff. I just am more inclined to think that if I'm gradual I won't do damage. This seems more logical than a sudden pump of activity at 12 months won't do damage.
In the same way, most vets will tell me that I need to feed Science Diet for my dogs to be healthy. They'll also tell me to vaccinate them each year. I have chosen alternative routes in these cases, too. Just because it's something that you'll never do doesn't make me wrong.


Can I suggest this thread gets split as it's rather off topic?

 

[CollieMan]

The fact is that I know my dog and what it is capable of and what it offers.

And that is really what it boils down to. You have to trust the individual handler to do what he or she thinks is best for their own dog.

This seems more logical than a sudden pump of activity at 12 months won't do damage.

That is the winning clause for me too. It's just too arbitrary and doesn't factor the individual dog.

Can I suggest this thread gets split as it's rather off topic?

If I was bright enough to work out how to do that, I would! Note to self: Get more accustomed to vBulletin. Oh Jean....

 

[xsara]

hehe Yes, I have. I might have dreamed this (though I'd like to make clear that I don't typically dream of DTA Members) but I seem to recall Barby saying that she uses different levels of treats for her beagle, Xsara, based on this sort of thing.

It took me forever to answer this (sorry), anyway - we do use different levels of treats, but not based on new trick-old trick thing, but depending on how good was the performance. If she does an old trick extremely well, she gets the good treat as well. I use this method because she gets distracted by the smell of the good treats so I don't want to use them all the time, but she will be more motivated and focused if tuna is involved. This method is really working for us.