Just Plain Stupid

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by Mr-Remington, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Mr-Remington Experienced Member

    Today I took Remi hiking up a popular trail. On our way there we passed a lady, She had a australian shepherd puppy, maybe a few months younger than Remi. She was forcing the poor thing to sit, yelling it at it, popping the chock chain. I felt bad for him, and the other dog that they were with. It was the most fearful pit bull puppy I have ever seen, it lunged every chance it got, but its body language was all fear. I didn't say anything and kept walking cause Remi was getting anxious.

    On our way down, the same lady was half way up, and as I turn the corner, I saw her grab the aussie by its legs and slam it into to the concrete trail. The poor thing shrugged to get up, but she pinned it to the ground. I watch with tears in my eyes, and Remi flipped out, he sensed that dogs fear. I walked up to the lady and she told me, 'I'm making her calm down, shes too excited, and pulling me." I told her 'I'm not trying to offend you, but what your doing is inappropriate, and wrong. I don't agree with what your doing. You are only causing fear and anxiety for your dog."
    Her response was "Well I study dog training and this is how they taught me to do it."
    I told her "I study dog behavior and psychology; I assure you that is not how you train a dog to be relaxed and comfortable. Your making it worse, and breaking trust. I also train my dog and I've never once needed to throw him to ground."
    Her only response was to tell me "Your dog isn't trained he's pulling on the leash."


    My dog wan't pulling he is trained that he can go as far as the end of the leash, if there is tension he comes back to me, or if I call him he comes, willingly. Am I wrong for allowing this? I don't think its fair for my dog to walk at a heel the whole time I take him a walk. How many of you make your dog heel at your side on a walk at all times?

    When we got to the bottom of the mountain there was a women with a golden and another aussie. The aussie wanted to greet Remi and then lady started scream, "I'm not in the mood for your shit today Gracie, stop acting stupid!!!" The dog was so terrified that if hit the floor cowering and looking away. It rolled on its stomach, trying to make the women stop. The lady just kept pulling the choke chain.

    Why would people do these things there dogs? Their your companions, they want to please you, and be your best friend. And all these people do are abuse them.

    Sorry to rant and rave, What I'm getting at it that I want to became more of an activist and focus positive reinforcement training, and bonding with your dog. What should I know off the top of my head to tell people if I witness this again?

    I also have a feeling the only training that lady had was from the dog whisper, I want the show banned, Where can I complain about it? I'm sure if enough people complain we can get it removed from tv, at least I hope so. People dont know what their doing and should not be trying those techniques at home, or ever.
    Tâmara Vaz likes this.

  2. southerngirl Honored Member

    That's horrible that people can treat their dogs like that! It's so stupid that people go out and get a dog just to make the poor things terrified!! I think you did the right thing by confronting the lady on how she was treating that poor dog. I think that having Remi be a role model for positive reinforcement let them see how well behaved he is. I'm curious to what the other DTA members will suggest to tell people when they see someone mistreating their dogs, because I would like to know to.
    No, you are not wrong for letting Remi have leash as long as he isn't pulling on the leash. I think it's wrong to make a dog stayed glued to your side during a walk. What fun is that for the dog? They want to explore all the smells, sounds, and sights. I let Missy have some leash while were walking, but when we pass dogs, wild animals, and people I have her walk beside me so that she doesn't bother people, disturb the wild life, and she's reactive toward dogs.
    Tâmara Vaz, Dogster and Mutt like this.
  3. Mutt Experienced Member

    Sadly those people will always be there and since there are still puppymills providing them with pups, we can't stop them from getting a dog.
    The dog will probably be gone in a few years, because it was agressive and they will take a new puppy and it will start all over again...
    It breaks my heart.
    The only thing we can do is offer an other way to train and spread it by this site/youtube/tv shows etcetera. Knowledge is something not everyone is granted with.
    You can lead a horse to the water, but....

    What you can do: don't immediatly tell them they are wrong (of course we know they are), because people don't like to be told that they are wrong (who are you to tell them that?). Tell them what helped for you or say something like: 'maybe ... would be a solution?'. Tell them about this site/kikopup/other positive trainers. Show them your dog, what you have accomplished with positive reinforcement.
    Ask them how they would feel in that position, if they think it would help their kids to behave. Show them how it works. Show them the fun you can have with a dog.

    My dogs only heel when I'm doing an exercise/training. If we walk they both may walk were ever they want as long as there is no tension on the leash (there is that turning point that if the dog walks a bit harder than it will pull, they have to be before that point). they only need to be on a specific place (in front of me/at my side) if a car or something else like that passes us.
    It is not fair to expect a dog to be in a heel the whole time, besides a walk is to let your dog sniff and relax and be happy, be a dog and not to be a robot/doing training exercises all the time. What is the whole point of walking with your dog then?

    I must say that luckily I have never seen these kind of people in all those years that I had our dogs (or waite scrape that ironically the only times I saw this was at the dogschool....). But it seems that the woods in which I lived next to for 2 years where a lot of dogowners came (a lot of regulars and on nice days the "tourists"), was a different planet if I read the comments about other people here and on other places...

    CM is thankfully starting to lose supporters (although there are still a lot of people that adore him). It takes time, but slowly people see how he really treats dogs.
    Tâmara Vaz, Dogster and southerngirl like this.
  4. Dogster Honored Member

    Oh my god... If I saw that, I would break down crying.:cry::cry: It's horrible how some people treat dogs. It's WRONG. I have never seen someone's child wering a shock collar, or choke chain, or prong collar, or given the alpha roll, or being screamed at in such a way.... I don't understand why dogs have to be treated like this.

    That story made me weak in the knees... I really want to help people like this see the light at the end of the tunnel-positive reinforcement dog training. But it's hard for a thirteen-year-old to explain to adults that their methods aren't the best, they won't listen.:rolleyes::( I try to help as much as I can, I try to educate people about positive reinforcement with CarmelandShivon's youtube channel and Facebook page. But there's always that bunch of ignorant people who don't bother listening to me (or to others, like the first lady in Mr.Remington's post), because they worship trainers like Cesar Millan or Brad Pattinson. Sorry for getting off-topic...:oops:

    I find that it's not fair to my dog (who is a sighthound mix, so she uses her nose more than some dogs) to walk in a heel all the time. She is MUCH happier on walks when I give her more freedom. I always bring treats with me on a walk, since I'm still teaching her to not go crazy when she sees another dog (it's NOT the end of the world if you can't sniff his butt, okay?:rolleyes::p) And I call her back to me, if she pulls. I've noticed that she pulls a lot less since I started giving her more freedom on walks.:)

    I read somewhere that "The Dog Whisperer" got cancelled. So no more new episodes, I think. (YES!!!!!!!:LOL:) http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201206/cesar-millans-last-hurrah Buuuuuut, he's starting a new show, ohhh boy.:cautious::rolleyes: He's going to show people that shelter dogs can be rehabilitated into the perfect family pet. Which is a good thing, but not with the methods he uses. I also read that he's going to Europe with this new show (even better:cautious:)
    Oh my god... If I saw that, I would break down crying.:cry::cry: It's horrible how some people treat dogs. It's WRONG. I have never seen someone's child wering a shock collar, or choke chain, or prong collar, or given the alpha roll, or being screamed at in such a way.... I don't understand why dogs have to be treated like this.

    That story made me weak in the knees... I really want to help people like this see the light at the end of the tunnel-positive reinforcement dog training. But it's hard for a thirteen-year-old to explain to adults that their methods aren't the best, they won't listen.:rolleyes::( I try to help as much as I can, I try to educate people about positive reinforcement with CarmelandShivon's youtube channel and Facebook page. But there's always that bunch of ignorant people who don't bother listening to me (or to others, like the first lady in Mr.Remington's post), because they worship trainers like Cesar Millan or Brad Pattinson. Sorry for getting off-topic...:oops:

    I find that it's not fair to my dog (who is a sighthound mix, so she uses her nose more than some dogs) to walk in a heel all the time. She is MUCH happier on walks when I give her more freedom. I always bring treats with me on a walk, since I'm still teaching her to not go crazy when she sees another dog (it's NOT the end of the world if you can't sniff his butt, okay?:rolleyes::p) And I call her back to me, if she pulls. I've noticed that she pulls a lot less since I started giving her more freedom on walks.:)

    I read somewhere that "The Dog Whisperer" got cancelled. So no more new episodes, I think. (YES!!!!!!!:LOL:) http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201206/cesar-millans-last-hurrah Buuuuuut, he's starting a new show, ohhh boy.:cautious::rolleyes: It's called "Leader of the Pack". He's going to show people that shelter dogs can be rehabilitated into the perfect family pet. Which is a good thing, but not with the methods he uses. I also read that he's going to Europe with this new show (even better:cautious:)

    (wow, sorry for making this post so long.:eek::oops:) I have a lot to say, I guess.:D
    Mutt and southerngirl like this.
  5. Jean Cote Administrator

    Thank you for sharing your story. That shows how much we need to promote positive reinforcement training and that's why I wrote the eBook! I think the only thing you can do is lead by example.
  6. madeleine Experienced Member

    Yuk!! That people stil train like this...
    Don't they bad after such a training???

    Luckely I do meet people on the streets who are open to possitive training. A few month ago I even met a couple and they nearly broke down in tears. They had a lovely young wather dog however the training didn't go aswell as they hoped. Sadly enough the never heared about the clicker. Since I always carry a clicker with me I explained a few things about that, positive training etc. They were amazed, didn't hear that on the dogschool.
    Sow there we stood, with the clicker in one hand (all my trainingbiscuits in the pocket, cary that along to since Dazzle needs to improve her coming back) and one and a half houre passed. The woman was amazed that her dog actually looked to her, that they had contact with the first step to train that the click means treat.
    In that short period the dog came back to her at one call of the name. She was so exited to see the positive results, she thanked me many times and went looking for a better, positive training school.
  7. dogcrazy Experienced Member

    Oh my god!!!! What was that lady thinking!!!!:cry: That`s horrible how some people treat their dogs!!!!:cry: I probably would have lost it!!! More people should be educated about positive reinforcement!!! Just like Dogster said, if I tell people that what they are dong is wrong they usually just stare at me (i am also 13). Don`t people feel bad for their dogs??!!! It really annoys me when me and Doster go to dog parks and everyone crowd around the person with the ``trained dog`` and the owner is explaining how you have to be harsh with the dog, and you have to be dominant:mad::cry::cry: and everyone is listening!!!! Sorry for my off topic.

    Its fine to let your dog go in front of you as long as you still are capable of calling your dog and your dog is int pulling you in to the forest. Dogs need to smell and explore. My dog usually heels (she likes being by my side) but the second we are on a hike carmel is in front.:)
    southerngirl and Dogster like this.
  8. 648117 Honored Member

    I let Holly have a fair amount of freedom. If she was in heel position it would be no fun for either of us. She wouldn't get to sniff and I would trip over her all the time. When doing proper heel work I want her really close so we are concentrating on each other the entire time and I walk differently, it would not be fun if we had to do that for even 15 minutes let alone for the duration of our daily walks.

    But this is a question I also had when teaching her loose leash walking. I never really thought that it mattered if the dog walked in front (some people thinks it means they are being "dominant"). Holly doesn't have the entire length of the leash and I do call her back if she gets near the end but Holly also likes to walk behind me sometimes which can be slightly anoying as her chin bumps the back of my leg all the time (I have no idea why she sometimes does this).

    I don't let her cross in front of me but sometimes she crosses over behind me so I have to get her back onto the left side. I don't like her crossing over to the right (behind or in front of me).

    Although, in saying all this, I have started to encourage her to walk roughly next to me (maybe about 50cm away from me) but it is still more forward than in heel position because I'm thinking I might get her to do Canine Good Citizen early next year so I want to tidy up her loose leash walking a bit. But if she want's to sniff something I usually stop and let her.
    dogcrazy, Tâmara Vaz, Mutt and 2 others like this.
  9. running_dog Honored Member

    I was once explaining to a policeman that I didn't mean to run a red light, his reply was, "Most people who run red lights don't mean to."

    Likewise most people who are cruel training their dogs don't mean to be cruel. They don't get up on a morning and think "Today I want to beat up my dog."

    I find it hard here on DTA. Most of you always seem to feel so kind and loving to your dogs, some of you admit there are bad days but others don't even seem to understand that not everyone finds it easy. Don't you ever get mad, don't you ever lose it? I thought when I only had Zac that I was a good 100% positive trainer but now I've had to try to deal with Gus I often question whether I should dare to show my face here on DTA.

    I should think both those women felt sick with impending doom before they forced themselves to set out on their walks with their dogs. I think that because there are days (thankfully becoming less frequent) when I feel physically sick knowing I have to face a lead walk with Gus. Three weeks ago I deteriorated rapidly during a walk and after 10 minutes went back to the car knowing otherwise I'd end up not unlike the second woman you describe (though without the bad language and without the choke chain). But somedays, like at the amber-red light I don't make the right choice in time.

    I'm not making any excuses for systematic aversives and brutal training, nor for lack of patience and irritability, I am saying that often where we see excesses of cruelty in training there are reasons, not good enough reasons to justify the cruelty but good enough reasons to justify our sympathy...
    • Maybe bad training advice mixed with ignorance,
    • maybe the dog is mismatched to their character,
    • or maybe the dog comes with personal baggage,
    • or maybe the dog needs more time than they have available,
    • or maybe their training attempts are being messed up by other people,
    • or maybe a baby cried all night and their temper is frayed to start with,
    • or maybe they are going through awful personal circumstances,
    • Or maybe any one of a thousand other reasons
    You see, after one or several of those reasons, for people like myself, all it takes is a bad choice at the amber-red.

    How you reacted to the first woman was very much the same as she was behaving towards her dog. You slammed her into the ground and not surprisingly she growled at you. I am fairly sure this woman already felt bad about what she was doing or she wouldn't have tried to justify herself as you approached.

    Just like training your dog catch her being good, at the worst you could admire her dogs and offer sympathy before dropping in an anecdote with a hint of positive training. Lead training Gus drove me over the edge so many times that while I do hate that the first woman was systematically using aversive methods (and even that is something I did years ago when training Zac to be steady to sheep, before I discovered desensitisation) I can still find a lot of sympathy for both these women.
  10. Dlilly Honored Member

    I agree, when you tell someone what they're doing is wrong, they will feel threatened and defend themselves. Next time, you should try saying something like this…. 'I noticed you're having some trouble with your dog. Remi would pull and would get too exited. What helped me was clicker training, you should really check it out' Something like that. I lie all the time saying my dog had the problem their dog has. :p It just seems friendlier, like I'm really trying to help the owner out if I act like I dealt with it.
    Dogster, Mutt and southerngirl like this.
  11. madeleine Experienced Member

    I don't totally agree with you however I get what you're trying to say.
    I don't believe that when you're having a hard day/night or whatever that that is any form of excuse to train your dog with "slamming him into to ground" or that kind of punishment /reinformend (depends on the situation which one it will be in combination with negative or positive). If you do feel bad then there is one easy way out; don't train! Wait, calm yourself and train later that day.
    Or get an instructor who helps you with training so you don't go on thet route.

    It's not for nothing that many sientistic rapports all say that positive reinforcement gives better results. And there are many examples, based on positive reinforment, that are great dogs! They form the best of combinations. So there is no reasons not to train positive.

    So if someone comes to me with the message that they train like the post in the topic start with any of these excuses. No sorry, I do not believe that the dog is better off.
    And if they didn't know better, then educate. Say that there is an other option, and take the change.

    Having said that, it does help starting a conforsation with what Dlilly said. And no I also don't think it's polite from that lady to react the way she did. Since she started the conforsation.
    Mutt likes this.
  12. Mr-Remington Experienced Member

    When first walked passed the women, I was calm. I'm one of those people that hates confrontation. I start freaking out. Our conversation lasted about 5- 10 minutes before she got blew up at me. I was nice and tried telling her I've never had to use those methods that there are positive methods she could try, like what I used with Remi. She was ferocious long before I walked up. When I first walked passed her, (before she threw her dog to the ground) she was upset. I didn't stop and talk to her but I said your dogs gorgeous and smiled. So I was nice to her from the start. I could have chose better words but this women was closed minded for the start. I'm going to try what Dlilly said. It seems like an ice breaker with an stressed dog owner.

    My pup went through a stage where he pulled with all his strength and now I'm working on improving beyond where we are now, he walks nicely most of the time. I've had days when as soon as we walk out the door he wants to bark at everything, and try pulling me down the street. But I've never once thought to take my anger out on him. Slamming your dog to the floor is animal cruelty and that should never be over looked.
    southerngirl and madeleine like this.
  13. Mr-Remington Experienced Member

    Dogster, I like the idea behind his new show but I dislike him so I'm conflicted. I wish someone more positive like Victoria Stilwell would have a show like that. I mentioned him because my sister has a blind chihuahua who is a crazy barker and she tried his methods for a episode she saw, and several other people I've met used his methods.
    madeleine likes this.
  14. Mutt Experienced Member

    Totally agree with madeleine.
    I think not having your day and this is a big diference.
    We are the owners of our dogs, we can think ahead, we choose to get a dog (your dog) and we are responsible for the dog and his actions and of orse our own actions. For me being human/adult/dogowner means that you now when it is best to just let it be. Don't confront it when you are not up for it at the moment. Give yourself and your dog that rest. If that means to just make a smaller onleash walk for one time so be it.
    But I don't a dog should suffer from you bad day, the dog didn't choose for that...
    madeleine likes this.
  15. running_dog Honored Member

    I did say I wasn't making excuses for cruelty.

    However I think we are often more able to help if we are able to be genuinely sympathetic rather than simply judgmental. I don't like it when a holier than thou attitude creeps into this forum as we seem to think we could never behave in such and such a way. Since I've met Gus I know I could behave like that (please note "could" is not synonymous with "do"). If a person has never ever made any bad choice in their life then they can be sure they will never choose to train/walk at the wrong time, will never ever use an aversive, will never lose it with their dog.

    The more I hear about the first woman the more I think she was very very frustrated and very very defensive so she was snapping and snarling just like a fear aggressive dog. That isn't right on her part but it is something I can understand. Obviously nothing excuses her from going to the extreme she did but probably if she had been less frustrated she would not have done so, probably she would have been using moderate aversives that would not have raised any eyebrows. Now I do agree that positive training is better, I do agree that the dominance/aversive methods are wrong... but understanding a little of what she was feeling instead of just being horrified would actually help to diffuse her aggression and open the way for a Dlilly style conversation.

    I'm very happy for those of you that find it easy to be positive with your dogs all the time. But please don't slam me for being honest about the fact that I find staying positive difficult under some circumstances with some dogs. I could just pretend to find 100% positive easy all the time, but I'd sooner try to be honest, and if honesty makes me unwelcome then so be it.

    Unlike these women I DON'T ever intend to use aversives, it is not part of my training plan for any dog, but I am not perfect, sometimes I make a bad decision and because of that I can understand that other people do as well - sometimes at the basic level of choosing a training method, sometimes that bad decision is during the day to day training. Perhaps I understand people better than dogs but frankly if you want to help people with their dogs that is where you need to start. Why do you think Cesar Milan is so successful? Not because he understands dogs but because he understands people.
  16. running_dog Honored Member

    I don't think a dog should suffer for my bad day, I thought I made it clear that I am not making excuses.

    That is actually a pretty naive generalisation. For example: I didn't want Gus, didn't choose Gus, he is not my dog, he is not a breed I like, not a character I like, not an energy level I can cope with, not a dog I can rehome, I know that's not his fault so we muddle our way along fighting to attain 100% positive with a complete mismatch, I could hand him over to my family but they train using aversives on principle, I train 100% positive in principle but sometimes I don't make the grade.

    So I am not going to dance up and down and say ooh how terrible I could NEVER EVER BE CRUEL! I could be cruel, but I try very hard not to, I try to manage circumstances so that I don't get to that stage, I try to make the right decisions. But if you have never been at the end of your tether with a dog, if you don't have to try to be nice, if you have never ever thought of taking something out on your dog, if you have never forced your fingers to stay curled round the handle of the lead as he lunges for a passing bus then you might just find it really hard to connect with what I'm trying to say.
  17. southerngirl Honored Member

    When first hearing Remi post I automatically thought about the dog and only the dog, not the person, but when I think about it yes I can relate to the lady except I would never slam my dog on the ground.
    I do understand that a dog can really frustrate you and at times you just want to yank on their leash, or snap at them. I used to feel like that a lot when trying to teach Missy to walk on a loose leash and she was dragging me or she was spazzing out over a dog and sometimes I still do. I just wish the lady had not got to the point were she slammed the dog on the ground.
    I agree that saying something like "oh my gosh I remember when my dog was dragging me everywhere I wanted to pull my hair out. I tried that dang Cesar stuff and it just didn't work, but I found something called Positive Reinforcement and man it was a life saver, maybe it'll work with your cute dog." would work a lot better than telling them there doing it wrong.
  18. madeleine Experienced Member

    How will the explain the dog that she's having a bad day (of something) and therefor the dog is beeing trown on the ground. Beeing sympathetic doesn't help dogs forward in there training. Not only in this example, but also not in all the others out there. Simply because there is a better way...


    Point taken offcourse ;)

    Yes, but unlike a dog, humans have the capability to reason. So they can think in steps forwards from the present and predict possible outcome. Therefor I don't think you can make this comperision so easly between a fear aggressive dog and a fear aggressive human.

    I still can't understand it. There are so many ways to find information about pos. reinforment training, especially when you've done a dogtrainingcourse you must have heard off it somewhere.

    Correct.

    That's something we do'nt know, becauwe we didn't see that. However bassed on the things we DO know (from how she said it, and in the context), it's more likely possible she's done it before or will do it more in the future.

    I wasn't implying that you didn't understand it. If I made you feel that way, my appoloice, wasn't my intention to do so.
    I still remane with the point that whatever the reason is for having a bad day, that's not any excuse to treat dogs like this. Based on the fact that she is human. And more so because she has done some dog training courses! Then, coming back on my point earlier, she will have heard of pos. reinforcemt earlier.

    Honesty doesn't make me feel unwelcome at all. Fact is, i'm beeing honest now aswell ;)
    Having said that, when training dogs, even trainig them walk on a leash easy, the results will be better when positive trained. So, when it's hard to train that way, why train at all? Do you want the dog to have a good trustwhorly band with the owner, or want a dog that somethimes doesn't trust the owner, situation, etc...

    Good, that's how people learn, but why should we all make the same "mistakes" when it comes to dog training? Better to learn from those who have learn not?

    A bad decision can me made, trowing a dog on the groud, sorry. That doesn't quallify for a bad decision with me. That is unessercary. Especialy when you try to teach the dog something!
    Cesar Milan's success is just how you look at it. There are many lawsuits againt him. Yes, he's on the tv. So, lucky him. Doesn't make me train my dog any different than it was.
  19. madeleine Experienced Member

    That's one heck of a good thing your trying out there. Good job!
    I do know what I must be work with a dog that can push your buttons. However, I don't let him even get so far.
    With that dog, I always (when I train him) train in a pos. reinforment way. Why, because it really works. Not only the trick, but the trust he builds up (with every click-treat) in me. And that part I can't get with a bad way off trainig, even worse, the dog wouldn't be near me at all, have no trust in me, and so on.
    Therefor I do get what you're trying to say, however I remain with the point that feeling sympathetic for this example, wouldn't change the combination into a better one.
  20. 648117 Honored Member

    I didn't want Holly either. I thought it was too soon since our last dog passed (ok, it was 9 months, but he broke my heart) and Paris had not long been diagnosed with the same heart condition (3 months prior) and was only given a few more months, I felt like I never wanted to own a dog ever again because I don't want to lose them :cry: .
    Then my mum and sister bought Holly at a pet shop but were waiting a week to pick her up (so her brother wouldn't be left alone) and I tried for that entire week to convince them not to get her. I told them about how her breed was wrong, how they should not have gotten a dog from a petshop, how she would have all sorts of behavioural and health problems from being a pershop puppy, how she was going to grow up ugly (she had a very funny coat) how it would be horrible at home with a puppy, toilet training would be a disaster....etc until they yelled at me to stop being so negative :( and got her anyway. Within a couple of days she had decided she was mine and it turned out she was way better matched to me than to anyone else in my family even though I would not choose any of the three breeds that she is a mix of and always wanted a larger dog :LOL:
    So even if you think your dog isn't right for you, he might end up to be just what you need.

    I understand where your coming from about having a bad day but it does sound like the women regularly used these methods and it isn't working. She probably was feeling defensive about it but even so doing that to a dog (even if you are having the worst day) is rather extreme.
    Paris and Kiefer went nuts whenever they saw another dog (they wanted to meet it and then they were fine) and I would just stand silently or drag them away as they went nuts and then re-directed at each other (just noise though). I didn't know what else to do, I knew nothing about dog training but I knew that yelling would do nothing and I would never hurt them.

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