I Need Your Guys Opinion

[Mr-Remington]

I realized a few weeks ago that Remi isn't agressive towards dogs but quite terrified, so after looking around for some time I found a facility that looked good. We went today for a consultation. The women who interviewed us was very nice. She interactive with Remi. After telling her what we wanted help with she brought out a squeaky toy to see how he reactive to loud sudden noises. He was fine, Then she made a noise similar to the squeak and moved closer to him from the bench she was sitting on. It's hard to explain but she had to make sudden noises and movements. He was terrified, she said, after calming him, She said that he was terrified of other dogs because of his lack of self- esteem. She recommended obedience training course to help his build his confidence. Its a 6 week course, and $495.

I asked about their methods of training. She said positive reinforcement, but that they do use correction collar.




I'm curious about your guys opinion about them because I don't want any negative experiences for him during training. Does it look like a good place or should I keep looking?

Their website http://www.k-9companions.com/courses.htm

and this is the paper they gave me when we were leaving.(Sorry if its hard to read.)

 

[Puppylove]

If you want my honest opinion.... I would pick up my dog and run a mile the opposite way!!

I don't believe that I need to use a "typical correction" and give my dog a "NO, together with a quick jerk on the training collar"

Punishment, which is exactly what a "quick jerk on the training collar" is, only teaches the dog what NOT to do... it doesn't teach the dog what to do.

The dog stops performing the behaviour because it fears punishment... with the positive reinforcement method, the dog willingly continues to perform the behaviour because it wants the reward.

It's similar to me saying to you, every day when you go to work I'm going to give you a quick pull of your hair, eventually, you won't want to go to work. And some people will quit their job... just like a dog quits performing behaviours..

BUT.... if I said to you I will give you a $100 bill every time you show up to work, I bet you will enjoy your job a lot more...

What area are you in?? Maybe I can ask some of my colleagues if they know anyone in your area that is reputable...

 

[curls139]

Nearly $500 sounds a lot for an obedience course - is it a residential? We have been to a 6 week obedience course with Russell for £59 and not because we needed to learn a lot of obedience but because it was a controlled environment around other dogs where we could work around them at Russell's pace. Perhaps a training group where other dogs are might be more useful - to get Remi used to working, paying attention and SUCCEEDING around other dogs to raise his self-esteem?. If the trainers are good they will allow you and Remi to work at your own pace - even if that means entering and leaving the hall whilst the session is going on. Do you think this would be something that might be useful at where Remi is at right now? The 'correction collar' sounds a little suspect - a little too vague...what does this mean? A choke collar, an e-collar. I'm not sure tbh I'd be wary for Remi's sake.... Also seems that there is a lot of emphasis on how much the people in the company love dogs and how they can be companions...rather than any of the trainers credentials, experience, training aims and methods. Perhaps they love money? Well done for taking the steps to seek professional help.

 

[Mr-Remington]

What area are you in?? Maybe I can ask some of my colleagues if they know anyone in your area that is reputable...

I would appreciate it if your able to find someone. I'm in southern California. Riverside to be exact.

I do agree with the correction thing. I got to see a little of what they did and I was hesitant. I don't like the idea of putting a choke chain on him. She did say I needed to "Up the correction" that his easy walker harness wasn't enough to help him focus on me. Where a "Correction collar" would "gently" remind him to focus on me and not anything else. I left with mixed emotions after seeing a demonstration. The trainer relied heavily on the collar.

 

[Puppylove]

OMG!! I say "Stay Away!!"

Let me ask around and see what or who I can find..

 

[Mr-Remington]

The 'correction collar' sounds a little suspect - a little too vague...what does this mean? A choke collar, an e-collar. I'm not sure tbh I'd be wary for Remi's sake.... Also seems that there is a lot of emphasis on how much the people in the company love dogs and how they can be companions...rather than any of the trainers credentials, experience, training aims and methods. Perhaps they love money? Well done for taking the steps to seek professional help.

The "correction collar" they use is a a plain metal choke chain, She said you just "give it a little pop" to correct the dog. That sounded horrible reading that back to myself. I am being very picky about where I will pick to train him. But I'm having a very hard time finding one that I like. This is the closest thing I can find to positive reinforcement.

I know the facility has been around for around 30 years and have good reviews, (hence my reason for looking into it.) but now I have major doubts. I feel like I will never find the right place.

 

[Mr-Remington]

OMG!! I say "Stay Away!!"

Let me ask around and see what or who I can find..

Thank you!

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

I'll ask around too, hang in there Remi.

The trainer you saw seems to be full of B.S. and has a lack of understanding of behavior modification. I don't know if I've already mentioned on this forum, but when I went to get my CGC with my late (much beloved) huge Catahoula mix, the evaluator was Bash Dibra, an old-school choker/jerker who promptly told me that he wouldn't evaluate us because my dog was wearing a harness. He said that to have 'control,' I had to have a neck lead, and showed open disdain for us. I was quite young, but had worked hard with my dog and asked, but isn't the point to show verbal control over him? (That really made Mr. Dibra sputter.) In the end I think someone lent me a collar so we could take our test, or maybe I used the leash. Anyway, we passed, because my dog was trained and under verbal control. No choking req'd.

 

[Mr-Remington]

Adrianna&Calvin- I want to do the CGC with Remi, but I want a trainer first and a few obedience classes first! I'm glad I've learned so much from this forum that I know what to look for and when to ask for advice.

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

Ok someone on another list recommended this place:
http://www.baddogsinc.com/groupclasses.html
The founder was the head of the local Golden Retriever rescue for years and has a ton of experience. No verbal/physical corrections, no shocking or choking

I wish Remi lived close to us, Calvin is great with shy dogs and great with puppies, very low-key. I've used him as a 'puppy socializer' for a local litter being fostered, and he's worked with two dog-aggressive dogs in my building two. My friend jokes that he's a dog therapist

 

[MaryK]

Grab Remi and RUN FAST!!!!!!!!!! I cannot help with finding a trainer, I'm in Australia but I can tell you that the moment you see a slip collar or they mention using one (read choke chain, slip collar is the politically correct terminology used nowadays for the old style choke collar) you will not find any real Positive Reinforcement Training. I was told by a school I took Ra Kismet to that they only used Positive Reinforcement, didn't have time to go to one of their classes because they were on a break and I had to sign to start with their first term. Lasted two and a half weeks, walked out in the middle of a lesson never to return, because they didn't even KNOW the meaning of Positive Reinforcement Training. Upset Ra Kismet for quite a while too, had to re-train him using +R, before he went there he never pulled, two and a half weeks later he was pulling, He did have the massive meltdown after but that was due to being attacked by a dog. He's now coming good again just using +R training. No pulling at all and not over reacting to dogs, just a slight over reaction with a head to head which I couldn't avoid but other than that, he's fine again.

That 'quick jerk on the training collar (choke chain)' involves holding your left hand tight against your side, lead very short with loop held in your right hand and jerking the dog as if you're starting an old fashioned motor mower over and over again- horrible! One little wee white fluffy in the school we attend literally curled into a frightened ball and the woman jerked the poor little puppy, who was 3 months old, all the way across the circle. The pups feet never touched the ground, she was jerked across like a rubber ball on the end of a lead That's the night I walked out as the woman attempted to take Ra Kismet from me and do the same to him no way was that going to be done to my boy!

Choke Collars can do massive harm physically as well as psychologically to a dog.

You may also find that they believe in 'dominance/pack leader' which as we all know is completely wrong and has been debunked by science. RUN AWAY FAST!!!!!!!!!!

Is it possible for you to train with another quiet dog? Also that course seems rather expensive.

 

[Mutt]

If you have doubts I wouldn´t do it.
I do agree with the other posts, but it´s your dog and you should do what you feel comfortable with.

other than that, I don't agree with their trainingmethods/believes in how a dog should be trained/handled.

 

[Mr-Remington]

Adrianna&Calvin- Puppylove also recommended that one to me so I'm going to look into it and see if it's a good fit for us. I hope Remi can be as calm as Calvin one day. He sounds the perfect dog.

 

[Mr-Remington]

MaryK- Thats horrible, poor Ra Kismet. I'm hoping to avoid something like that ever happening to Remi.

 

[MaryK]

MaryK- Thats horrible, poor Ra Kismet. I'm hoping to avoid something like that ever happening to Remi.

I sure wouldn't like any dog to experience seeing or being treated as that woman treated dogs. Plus took me a while to forgive myself for not walking out the moment I saw choke chains being sold. I felt a tremendous amount of guilt for quite a while. I am sure Ra Kismet forgave me much faster than I forgave myself.

 

[Mr-Remington]

I am sure Ra Kismet forgave me much faster than I forgave myself.

It was learning experience for you, I bet you know what to look for now when it comes what to look for, for training! And at least you walked out before permanent life long harm was done to Ra Kismet.

 

[MaryK]

Yes you're so right Mr. Remington, I do know now what to look for when it comes to training! Oh I just couldn't stay, it was too awful for words there. Again, thank goodness Ra Kismet is a well, happy, loving boy and no physical harm done either thank goodness!

 

[Anneke]

Like everyone else has said... don't go!
You don't want Remi to become even more scared. I hope the other place works out well!

 

[Mr-Remington]

So I don't have a phone at the moment, but as soon as I get the bill paid I'm calling the BADDoginc one. It seems like a the best fit, so fingers crossed I can call soon

 

[jackienmutts]

RUN!!!!!! FAST. I lived in So Ca til 8 yrs ago - will also look if you need further help finding just the right person/facility. I can also ask our trainer up here (I'm in Arroyo Grande, San Luis Obispo County), as she has connections all over Ca, let me know if you further help And $500 is outrageous if it's a group class !!! Good luck, I hope this one place works out.