E-Collar Seminar

[tx_cowgirl]

I recently started a new job at a hunting supply/outdoors store. I'm a bowhunter myself so this is right up my alley. I love my job, but...
There is certainly a generous amount of hunting trainers.*

*Hunting trainers: MOSTLY(although not all trainers) correction based, typically involving a shock collar. Old school trainers think dogs are TOOLS, not living creatures, and therefore need no names, no affection(as that would spoil a good hunting dog), no rewards, no anthing. Newer trainers are much more sympathetic towards their animals....but still use shock collars.

Now then, as for the seminar....all employees were required to attend an e-collar seminar at work held by an amateur trainer. I'll give him this: he did know how to properly use e-collars. Yes, there is a right and wrong way to use them, but either way, I strongly disagree with them. Anyway...I did learn much about them and their use, but nothing that I could not do without them. His dog did everything any of my dogs can do in terms of obedience, and none of my dogs have ever had an e-collar on their necks. I DO understand that for hunting, having a very strong control of the dog's prey drive is important for their safety. IE, my trainer's friend had a GSD that was a bullet-chaser. She ended up getting shot, entirely by accident of course, and died. BUT, you can easily teach that same self-control without e-collars. Again, this man WAS knowledgeable in many aspects of proper e-collar use. But then.....
He spoke of a client's pet dog he worked with who was terrible about running in the street. He put a shock collar(cranked all the way up) on him and a leash, walked him in the street, and "shocked the fire out of him." Walked him back in the yard, "loved on him." Walked him in the street, "shocked the fire out of him."
MY solution:
Well for one, if your dog is running in the street, there is this MARVELOUS, 100% effective solution....
SHUT THE DOOR.
Two, teach wait. Teach BOUNDARIES.
My solution=well-behaved, safe dog.
His solution=dog who's afraid to leave the front door.

Then, he spoke of teaching your dog "here," the common hunting replacement for "come." In the beginning, you have your dog leashed, tug a little and say here. Dog(supposedly) learns here. Later on, place shock collar on dog. If dog doesn't respond to "here," SHOCK, then try again. Evidentally, this makes your dog want to just come running to the man with the shock trigger. Hmm...now maybe I'm a just a smalltown country hick, but that just doesn't make much sense to me. If your dog doesn't respond to something, you screwed up somewhere, or he DOESN'T fully understand what you're asking of him. He's not disobeying--YOU haven't taught him well enough.

As you can imagine, it was extremely difficult for me to sit through this load of crap. I did try to be open-minded, and I DID learn about the use of shock-collars and the functions of certain collars. But I see NO need for them at all whatsoever. Even my LEAST advanced dog did the same things his did. Made me very proud of my dogs, and happy they didn't end up with shock-happy people.

So....that's my take on the "informative" e-collar seminar I attended. Unfortunately, he was able to woo my not-so-dog-savvy coworkers. Guess me and the dogs need to come in more often to make the impression that e-collars are needed. :dogwub: (The store allows dogs.) This is a HUGE part of why I'm trying to learn about retriever training and other hunting-related dog training. As of yet, I have found ZERO all-positive hunting trainers. However, people who train dogs for blood-trailing are an entirely different breed. I have yet to find a bloodtrail trainer who isn't positive reinforcement based. Too bad all hunters couldn't model this behavior. So, my point being, I'm trying to learn about this kind of training to offer hunters a different option: a respectful, quality hunting dog who has both self-control and desire to work. Who comes to you because he wants to, NOT because he's scared not to. Who loves his job and doing it with his handler. No shock collars, no physical corrections.
On that note, if anyone knows anything about this, feel free to reply with tips!

 

[l_l_a]

hey Tx-Cowgirl! I haven't been here for MONTHS, how are you doing? (busy in general - got laid off from my job, then got new job but with crazy boss - and volunteering at a animal shelter and now fostering a sweet shelter dog). I just thought I'd pop in again, and saw this post at the top of the list. Great to hear you've got a new job that is right up your alley! (except for having to go to that seminar...)

I don't have any experience with hunting, but if you are looking for non-compulsion based alternatives for field work to recommend to customers, there's this book: Positive Gun Dogs
(they may even have a yahoo list, but I'm not completely sure)

well I applaud you for being very open minded and going to the seminar. No one can say that your opinion is uninformed (which is what people usually do if someone disagrees with them, which is to simply say you are ignorant for disagreeing!).

I believe, scent work is traditionally trained with positive methods simply because you can't physically force a dog to find and follow a scent, there is just no way to force a dog to do that. But with obedience, that is when it is possible to force a dog to do something, and there will always be people who will do that.

I share your concern about coercive training techniques in general. While I personally am a fan of positive training methods, recently it was reinforced to me even more why this is (sort of a reminder of why I prefer positive methods). Recently at the shelter we had a sweet dog who had aggression issues toward other dogs. I and other volunteers had been working with her a bit on and off and she had made some progress, slow but steady. (hey, aggression isn't cured overnight!!) Then we brought in a professional trainer for help but who ended up subjecting her to a lot of prong collar corrections. I wasn't comfortable with this approach but I was not the decision maker just a volunteer, and like you I was still keeping an open-mind and letting the trainer run the show since they are the professional. The dog appeared "fixed" right afterward (but was just shut down in reality and too tired to move). But in the following weeks I found that dog had regressed and become even more aggressive than ever before. So that was a big reminder to me about why I've long since preferred positive training methods.

Like your shock collar seminar experience, I think a lot of 'less savvy' people are impressed by the seemingly instant fix from using compulsion especially when they feel the stakes are high - competition titles, or safety reasons even though there are almost always other alternatives for safety. In the immediate time frame it appears that the problem has been solved. But in the long run, backsliding and worsening of the original problem is a real possibility.

anyway good luck with your new job!!

 

[tx_cowgirl]

Hey l_l_a!!!! So good to see you around here again!!
So how is that aggressive dog doing??? Good I hope. Correction-based training teaches aggressive dogs that the behavior isn't acceptable, but does nothing to solve the root of the problem. If you don't fix the root of the problem, you'll never completely get anywhere.
Thank you for the link!!! Will be buying that book I imagine.
Today I took Mudflap to work(off the clock). Leashed to the door, unleashed all through the store. We worked on long-distance stand/sit/down stays, long distance commands, and a variety of basic/advanced obedience things, plus generalizing her newest trick--"What do boy dogs do?"--hiking on random objects in the store on command. LOL! Before I get bashed, the whole environment was COMPLETELY safe despite her being unleashed. There were NO other dogs there, and we've done A LOT of work to master this.
So...we showed off a little today. ^^ I was proud.

Not sure if you've seen the post yet, but I lost Rusty. It was completely unexpected. He had no health issues at all whatsoever, no signs of illness, he was not old....very unexpected. I have no idea what happened. I came home and found him and was just at a loss. But, I'm keeping busy and doing okay. I'm doing some outside training now with clients and that's keeping me occupied, along with school and work.

Great to see you here!!!!

 

[fickla]

I am doing some training with Vito now on some retrieving work (well kind've, it's third on the list behind agility and obedience) and completely agree with you that all hunt training is correctional based. If you are seriously interested, I own the book Positive Gun Dogs and it really is a good book. There is one more positive hunt book, forget what it's called but I think it's something like Clicker Gun dogs, it's a British one and geared more towards the pointers than the retrievers.

I also am a member of yahoo group called Positive Gun Dogs (the authors of the book are on the list) and there is tons of great info on there!

But as of right now there are some pointers and spaniels who have their MH all positively trained, but 0 retrievers. Some dogs have their SH but none have reached the master level. So until this happens, traditional trainers are not going to believe that it can be done and that they don't have to train with corrections. At least in the UK they can't use shock collars. Part of the problem of reaching this MH goal is that the positive people are forging new ground. No one is entirely sure HOW to train some of this stuff and deal with the issues that pop up with dogs so extremely motivated for the bird but still having to listen Most of the trainers on the list read and reread all the traditional books and just modify the drills to they aren't correcting.

 

[tx_cowgirl]

That's kind of what I'm doing--getting traditional books and modifying. I've found one partially positive book that is okay so far, but does have corrections as well. I'll have to join the group. ^^
Will be buying both books I bet. I'm interested in all different kinds of hunt training. As for what I'll use personally, that's only the blood trailing. I'm a bowhunter and blood trailing/tracking is definitely handy. I'm fixing to start working with my brother's dog, who is the PERFECT candidate for this.
I know one semi-traditional retrieve/flush/point trainer who raised Brittanies for ever. He didn't name or "spoil" any of them, but never used shock collars. Their reward was the work, and that was about it. But they did great work and really loved it. He doesn't do much of that anymore but I might be going to him for help...he lives within walking distance of me, nearly. ^^

I suppose it's not much different from working with herd-crazy Border Collies, in terms of the drive. Just drive for something different, lol.

Thanks Fickla!!

 

[l_l_a]

hi Tx-Cowgirl - I'm SO sorry to hear that you lost Rusty!! It sounds like it was so completely unexpected too, that's extra hard. How long ago was it?

But it sounds like Mud is certainly having a blast going to work with you! Hey, dogs need jobs, right? mine would be so jealous. I brought him to work a couple times, on a saturday when my boss wouldn't be around, but nothing exciting. I sat at my desk and my dog sat beside me and then we stared at each other and that was about it... next time I asked if he wanted to come to work with me again and I swear he was so not enthused..! Anyway it sounds like you've been doing a lot of work with Mud too, that's really cool and she and you are setting a great example for positive training.

I hear what Fickla is saying about how in some disciplines (like field trials) positive trained dogs are in the minority and not at the high levels so traditional people take this as 'proof' that it doesn't work. Basically it just takes a long time and a lot of work to blaze a new trail, and it's even harder when the people trying to do the trail blazing don't have all the information or skill and experience upfront already and have to acquire that along the way while at the same time trail blazing.


here's an article that sorta explains this: ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- "Clicker Trainers Use No Punishment" and Other Training Myths

the article is called "Myths of Clicker Training". and about half way down is the relevant part:


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]“Clicker training isn’t effective because no clicker trained dogs have achieved {fill in your favorite elite title}.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]Clicker training is not a new technology, but it is relatively new in the dog world. Due to grassroots effort, it has slowly increased in popularity over the past fifteen or twenty years. However, only in the past two or three years have clicker training classes begun to appear with any regularity. Prior to that, trainers were largely on their own, teaching themselves with the help of mailing lists, Web sites, and a limited selection of books and videos. Even now most classes are geared toward the pet owner.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]A potential competitor who wants to traditionally train his dog has lots of resources at his disposal because many, many people have been down the road before him. There are many existing methods, many experienced competitors to help, many instructors to teach, and many books and videos to supplement.[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]People who want to clicker train for competition aren’t that lucky. Some sports—like agility and canine freestyle—are dominated by clicker trainers and have accumulated a wealth of resources, but other sports—like field training—have nothing to help the new competitor. The old traditional recipes usually don't translate; the trainer—often a beginner himself—must start from scratch.[/FONT]



[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]In order to get a title (in any sport!!), you need...[/FONT]

• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]a trainer who thoroughly understands the training style he is using[/FONT]
• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]a trainer who thoroughly understands the sport he is participating in and the individual behaviors he needs to train[/FONT]
• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]a dog who has the talent and physical ability to do the required behaviors at a precise-enough level to consistently win[/FONT]
• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]the desire to train and compete enough to obtain the title[/FONT]
• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]the money to train and compete enough to obtain the title[/FONT]
• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]the time to train and compete enough to obtain the title[/FONT]
• [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]the skill to train to obtain the title[/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]You have to have every single one of those elements. Every one. The reality is it takes years to become good enough to train to the upper levels of any sport, even if you have the resources to help you get there. For those trainers who are pursuing sports where no one has yet forged a path and invented recipes, the road is infinitely tougher and harder.[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial, sans-serif]It will happen. Every year another boundary comes crashing down. All we need is the time to have all of the element fall into place.[/FONT]
​

 

[tx_cowgirl]

9/8 is the day it happened...

Well, I only get to take the dogs when I'm off, but still they love it. Funny, every time we come in my coworkers comment on how "well-behaved" and "calm" and "well-mannered" they are....but nothing was said about the e-collar trainer's dog, besides that she was sweet and "listened well." She was like a boomerang dog, which I suppose is just typical of a dog trained the way hunting dogs are trained. She wandered as far as she pleased from him, he'd call her, she'd come, then wander out again. She had no heel command or anything even similar. My dogs will stay in position for hours until I release them, and even then they will return back to position and stay there when called. My dogs carry out their commands with enthusiasm and a wagging tail, while his sweet submissive girl acted mostly out of fear and cowered all the time. Her movement was slinky and low to the ground like any other super submissive dog. Even Zeke is more confident than her. Poor girl.

That's my little soap box moment.
Great article l_l_a. Thanks.

 

[tx_cowgirl]

This particular trainer did mention "snake-breaking" as well, like your toad problem. His form of doing this is sewing a rattlesnake's mouth shut, then letting the dog wander in that general direction. E-collar was cranked all the way up. Then:
"When the dog's got his nose in the middle of that snake, you burn 'em. Let 'em try it a couple more times and that's all it takes. They won't go near a snake again."

I'm a former Petsmart manager, and one particular customer really sticks in my mind. A woman came in with a very sweet standard poodle. Her e-collar "wasn't working" she thought, because her dog seemed to be running away from something constantly, as she did when she got shocked. She explained that now, with or without shock, the dog was always a little edgy for no apparent reason. From what she told me, I explained to her what I thought was the problem. The collar came with a remote, and she was shocking her anytime she did something she didn't want her to. Which is what loooots of not e-collar savvy pet owners do. So the dog had no idea when she was going to get shocked, and now she was terrified of doing anything other than trying to escape it. While I tried to explain e-collars and the behavior her dog was exhibiting and why, my store manager interrupted me to tell her that it was probably just a problem with the collar and she should buy another one. I was furious and was not going to let him convince this woman that a shock collar was the solution for her dog rather than introducing her to a different solution. He proceeded to make me look like an idiot and told her that her 2-year-old collar just needed an upgrade as these things only last a few years(which is bull because they last for 5+ years, on average--plus, there shouldn't have been any hard wear and tear on this collar since it was just inside on a seemingly well cared for dog). She went home, without an ecollar, but with lots to think about.

As you can imagine I was very mad. I later calmly told him I didn't appreciate him interrupting me and that there was nothing wrong with the woman's collar. He was an idiot, and the district manager later said he never wanted him in his district again. He was transferred elsewhere.

Anyway...lol a little rant. I don't see them as entirely necessary, especially when handed over to someone who's just going to get shock-happy to "fix" their dog. Of the people I've met who want shock collars for their pets, it is entirely out of laziness. (NOT that all people are this way...just my observation from the people who have come to me about shock collars.) They are too lazy to actually take the time to train their dog, so they just want to use a shock collar. Again, this is just from the people I've talked to. And 9 times out of 10, the problems they were having were directly related to the fact that they got a breed they knew nothing about and were in way over their heads. The trainer who conducted the seminar said one thing that kind of made sense:
You cannot teach your dog anything with an e-collar. You can reinforce things they already know.

I don't really buy the last part, but the first part is exactly right. You can't tell your dog to sit, shock him, and expect him to know what you're asking. That's like me speaking to you in a different language and then slapping you because you don't do as I ask. As for housemanners, shock collars are not really needed. For instance, the boxer pup I'm working with right now is a counter surfer. So, the owner set a couple plates hanging off the edge of the counter and we sat down to watch TV. Wouldn't you know it, she lept up to stick her nose in the plate, and crash! Scared her, yes, but didn't physically harm her. We did other things to work on counter surfing while she's there, but while she's not, the plates work. She hasn't counter surfed since. Things fall off the counter and make scary noises when you jump on it. You could shock her, but...what if you aren't home and she decides to test it? What if she ends up terrified of the shock zone(the kitchen)? Then you've got other problems to fix. Another thing to fix counter surfing: don't leave things on the counter unsupervised with a puppy who doesn't know any better. None of my dogs are counter surfers, but I still don't leave things out.

I think I'm rambling...lol. :dogblush:

 

[tigerlily46514]

OH Tx, i am so glad they have YOU to try to help them learn some new things, too!! Wow, that would be hard spot to be in...good luck!!!!

 

[tx_cowgirl]

Well, it doesn't help that the trainer is married to one of the managers. But again, he DID, for the most part, know how to properly use shock collars. I just don't think they're necessary. In this kind of store though, hunting trainers are easy to find and contact. If I keep bringing the dogs regularly, I think I may be able to get the message sunk in. Not all of them know I'm a trainer, either. Give it time, maybe they'll see that you can teach a dog anything without a shock collar.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Oh, that is so nice, Tx, for you to keep on trying!
I agree, i am so not for shock collars...nope. I feel kinda bad, the greyhound mix down the street, they are setting up one for him for his 'fence'...the dog across the street has one, too...

Actually, now that i think about it, there are lots of 'em around here..*shiver*...I have noticed, my Buddy, walking by, has no idea those dogs cannot come to him. He worries very much about some of them, the great big ones, as their owners call out to us going by, "Oh, don't worry, he has an electric fence."...i feel bad for them...

HANG IN THERE TX!! Who knows, you very well might be able to turn on some light bulbs for them....

 

[tx_cowgirl]

In the case of fencing, sometimes it's acceptable. It's incredibly hard to "fix" and escape artist. Believe me, Rusty was one. It then becomes an issue of safety--I'd rather use electric fencing than have my dog get run over, poisoned, attacked by another dog, pupnapped(lol), lost, etc. Of course, I'd RATHER go for positive training, but training an escape artist not to escape is very, very difficult. In cases like Rusty's, it's not a matter of seeking more exercise or being bored or whatever, it's just being a roamer. And it's just not safe where I live, and in most places.
But overall, I do not like shock collars. All the times that Rusty wound up missing, I was heartsick. I hated that feeling. I was so scared that one day something bad would happen. Once, he went to visit some buddies next door, and my !#$@#%@$^ neighbors neglected to bring him back or let me know or anything. He was there ALL DAY before I finally saw him, IN THEIR BACKYARD, with the gate CLOSED. They never did let me know he was over there, after worrying ALL DAY. I was furious. I went and got him myself. I hated the feeling of wondering if my dog was safe, or even alive.

 

[sara]

Ahhh TXCG... i had much the same problems... I was thinking about training a friend's St. Poodle to hunt, he had the drive and instinct, so i started researching and buying books... everything I found was punishment based, and e-collar. One thing I have learned is that St. Poodles cannot be correction trained, they shut down. they are waaayyy too intelligent to force train. I eventually gave up on the idea. All field dog clubs here wouldn't allow a St. Poodle... even tho the CKC says they have to, and they were all based on force training. I honestly couldn't see pinching a dog's ear to make it open it's mouth to force a dummy in... So Kayden made a wonderful pet, who plays fetch beautifully....

 

[l_l_a]

Tx-Cowgirl - I didn't realize you lost your Rusty so recently! my condolences.

on the other topic, I can't believe your former store manager at petsmart was so rude! that is just plain unprofessional not to mention he was doing the customer a disservice by giving her misinformation. Thank goodness he was transferred out eventually

 

[tx_cowgirl]

Sara--
What a pity that no one would allow her in. I think the thing they don't realize is the best retrievers are those who have a natural love for it, or that you have created a love for it in them(positively). Not the dogs who have been taught by "force-retrieving."


Yeah that manager was a jerk. He made me hate my job because I despised working with him. We lost many good employees.

 

[l_l_a]

isn't it such a shame that one nasty person can ruin the work place for everyone. makes you wish you could just work with dogs only, and not have to deal with any people!

by the way I ran into a behaviorist I had worked with for my dog's fear aggression a while ago.. She's the one who had introduced me to clicker training and did a lot of the initial explaining of positive training to me. I remember now that she was also a field trials person and she titled her dog (cocker spaniel) using only positive methods. she said everyone was a naysayer and told her it couldnt' be done, and it did take her longer to train, but she proved them wrong. Sorry I don't know what kind of title since I know nothing about field sports. But just running into her the other day reminded me that this is what she had told me awhile ago when she was explaining positive training to me.

 

[tx_cowgirl]

News on my work with my coworkers!

And great news at that. There are two fairly new employees at work with interest in tracking. They heard of me being a dog nut and a trainer, and we got to talking. Not sure if it will ever actually go anywhere, but I did get into the head of one of them, lol, and I think I have him hooked or at least very interested. The other is a little tougher, but he may get there. He thinks that since he tests all levels on shock on his calf before he puts it on his dog, that that means it's tolerable. Well, buddy, your neck is a heck of a lot more sensitive than your leg. Anyway, then there's one more...

The big one, is the lead of my department. He's respected as "the" trainer there because he trained his own dogs. He openly says he knows very little about training, but he's gotten them to a point that he can use them(mainly retrieving) effectively enough. He recently got rid of one of his dogs, a high energy dog that was probably the better candidate of his dogs. He drove him crazy, because he didn't know how to handle the workaholic types. His other dog is trainable, but doesn't have the desire that Max had. To me, I would've wanted Max, the driven, high-energy, dog with the desire to work and retrieve, rather than Drake, the lazy but trainable dog. Both could be great retrievers with the right training, but Max would be the one to last you longer through the day because he wants to do what you want of him, despite the shock of the collar. Both dogs were trained with shock collars, and he's getting a female pup in June.

Well today, in a slow hour, we got to talking about my take on shock collars when he spotted the book I'd brought in--Scenting on the Wind. And so it began.... I started with simply stating that I was very against them and that my dogs could do anything a shock-collar trained dog could do, and were more willing to. Then I used this analogy:
"If you came to work today, and Greg(Store Manager) told you that you weren't going to get paid today, you'd leave, right? Well, what if he whacked you with a baseball bat when you threatened to leave, and told you that would happen from here on out if you didn't work to his standards. Sure you'd work, but only out of fear of being whacked...
Now what if you came in, and Greg told you that you were doing a great job, but you still weren't going to get paid? You might have more incentive to work because of the verbal praise, but still...why stay there?
Now, what if you came to work, just like normal, for regular pay, and Greg gave you $50, right there, because you were doing such a great job. You'd think, 'Wow, what can I do to get that again?' So you'd work harder to try to earn the unexpected reward."
Dogs are the same way. If you make it rewarding for them, they're going to give you 100%+ to try to get what they want. The end result: they're working because they want to, for themselves, which in return, pleases you. I then explained that when a dog "disobeys" you, 99.99999% of the time, it is some fault of your own. Options:
-They don't fully understand what you're asking because you rushed training.
-You got frustrated at some point and they now have a negative association.
-You didn't ask them in a way that they are used to(new environment, different tone of voice, didn't give them as much time as you usually do, etc).

I then explained that shocking them does NOT make them want to come to you, but that it only makes them scared not to. The only options they have are coming to you or getting shocked, so obviously, the best option is to come. If you teach them to come because it's rewarding in some way, they'll come 100% of the time, with no delay, with no resistance, with no fear.

We discussed this for probably 30+ minutes, and then it was time for him to get off. I could tell he was taking it in and thinking about it the whole time. He said that he hated "having to use shock collars," and that if another way was effective he'd love to use it. He then asked what I was capable of teaching, if I could teach a dog to retrieve, and if I would be willing to help him with his upcoming puppy. He said he was definitely going to keep that in mind, that he wanted to continue our conversation, and that he'd be willing to try another method with the pup. I told him honestly that I had never taught a dog to retrieve an animal(waterfowl), but that I could teach a dog to retrieve virtually anything(including tissues, keys, and beer), so that if he kind of knew how to get there that I could find a positive way to do it.

I also told him about some of my accomplishments with customer's dogs, like Misty the dog-herder and Aowen the counter-surfer, and that I never so much as raised my voice to either dog. I compared the e-collar seminar guy's training of the street dog to my training with Aowen, who was bad about rushing in/out the door. I used body-blocking with Aowen, and in a matter of minutes she would sit patiently and wait for the okay to enter/exit the door. She was never hurt or scared or caused any physical/mental harm of any kind. The e-collar guy's dog was probably terrified to even leave the front door, and had a fear of the street rather than a respect for boundaries. This example I think had the most impact on him.

So that's 3 people at work who I have at least gotten to, whether I've changed their minds or not. I've at least introduced them to another way. I honestly think the department lead has the most potential to change, despite the fact that he is probably the hardest. He likes working with his dogs, and has the desire to spend the time necessary to mold a great dog. If I can show him that positive training works, then the mindset of my coworkers will begin to change. They will become more open-minded and I will gain credability.

I am very excited and proud of myself with my success, as self-centered as that sounds. ^^ For the sake of these people's dogs, I am happy that I may have possibly saved them from a different training style. I honestly think the department lead will be coming to me for his new puppy, and he will be pleased with what we can accomplish. I can't wait.