I recently started a new job at a hunting supply/outdoors store. I'm a bowhunter myself so this is right up my alley. I love my job, but... There is certainly a generous amount of hunting trainers.* *Hunting trainers: MOSTLY(although not all trainers) correction based, typically involving a shock collar. Old school trainers think dogs are TOOLS, not living creatures, and therefore need no names, no affection(as that would spoil a good hunting dog), no rewards, no anthing. Newer trainers are much more sympathetic towards their animals....but still use shock collars. Now then, as for the seminar....all employees were required to attend an e-collar seminar at work held by an amateur trainer. I'll give him this: he did know how to properly use e-collars. Yes, there is a right and wrong way to use them, but either way, I strongly disagree with them. Anyway...I did learn much about them and their use, but nothing that I could not do without them. His dog did everything any of my dogs can do in terms of obedience, and none of my dogs have ever had an e-collar on their necks. I DO understand that for hunting, having a very strong control of the dog's prey drive is important for their safety. IE, my trainer's friend had a GSD that was a bullet-chaser. She ended up getting shot, entirely by accident of course, and died. BUT, you can easily teach that same self-control without e-collars. Again, this man WAS knowledgeable in many aspects of proper e-collar use. But then..... He spoke of a client's pet dog he worked with who was terrible about running in the street. He put a shock collar(cranked all the way up) on him and a leash, walked him in the street, and "shocked the fire out of him." Walked him back in the yard, "loved on him." Walked him in the street, "shocked the fire out of him." MY solution: Well for one, if your dog is running in the street, there is this MARVELOUS, 100% effective solution.... SHUT THE DOOR. Two, teach wait. Teach BOUNDARIES. My solution=well-behaved, safe dog. His solution=dog who's afraid to leave the front door. Then, he spoke of teaching your dog "here," the common hunting replacement for "come." In the beginning, you have your dog leashed, tug a little and say here. Dog(supposedly) learns here. Later on, place shock collar on dog. If dog doesn't respond to "here," SHOCK, then try again. Evidentally, this makes your dog want to just come running to the man with the shock trigger. Hmm...now maybe I'm a just a smalltown country hick, but that just doesn't make much sense to me. If your dog doesn't respond to something, you screwed up somewhere, or he DOESN'T fully understand what you're asking of him. He's not disobeying--YOU haven't taught him well enough. As you can imagine, it was extremely difficult for me to sit through this load of crap. I did try to be open-minded, and I DID learn about the use of shock-collars and the functions of certain collars. But I see NO need for them at all whatsoever. Even my LEAST advanced dog did the same things his did. Made me very proud of my dogs, and happy they didn't end up with shock-happy people. So....that's my take on the "informative" e-collar seminar I attended. Unfortunately, he was able to woo my not-so-dog-savvy coworkers. Guess me and the dogs need to come in more often to make the impression that e-collars are needed. :dogwub: (The store allows dogs.) This is a HUGE part of why I'm trying to learn about retriever training and other hunting-related dog training. As of yet, I have found ZERO all-positive hunting trainers. However, people who train dogs for blood-trailing are an entirely different breed. I have yet to find a bloodtrail trainer who isn't positive reinforcement based. Too bad all hunters couldn't model this behavior. So, my point being, I'm trying to learn about this kind of training to offer hunters a different option: a respectful, quality hunting dog who has both self-control and desire to work. Who comes to you because he wants to, NOT because he's scared not to. Who loves his job and doing it with his handler. No shock collars, no physical corrections. On that note, if anyone knows anything about this, feel free to reply with tips!