Dog Food

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by Puppylove, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"I'm feeding Chicken Soup but I thik I might try another brand due to recalls."//

    I can understand someone feeling that way.
    I will continue to feed Chicken soup dog food,
    and i will continue to eat tomatoes and artichokes, and many other foods which get recalled every year,
    year after year, too.
    Really, we can't go a summer without some produce or meats intended for humans to eat
    being recalled.

    Anyone interested in mulling over a different point of view on recalls can read reply #2, #3, #22,
    in this thread,
    and should probably stop feeding raw eggs to their dogs, too....Raw eggs are often covered in salmonella, which most healthy dogs do not succumb to. The risk is more to humans who don't wash their hands after handling raw eggs, or contaminated dog food.

    I always wash my hands after handling raw eggs or raw meat, ALWAYS, but, i'd never consider no longer buying them.

    and now, to be extra safe, i also wash my hands after handling dog food. But i will still buy
    raw eggs
    raw meat
    and chicken soup dog food.

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    but yeah, i am interested in rotating dog foods,
    to ensure more variety of nutrients,
    to prevent any build up of any ingredients my dog does not need every single day,
    and for more fun for my dog.

    i really really like the idea of rotating dog foods around very much! :D
    Dogster likes this.
  3. Dogster Honored Member

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  4. 648117 Honored Member

    I'm surprised that you can't get Orijen in Australia, I can get it here in New Zealand.

    Are you looking in petshops or supermarkets?
    (I can only get it at the petshop)
    Dogster likes this.
  5. Puppylove Well-Known Member

  6. Dogster Honored Member

    It looks like a good dog food, but the dried beet pulp is not needed.(y) And there is not enough meat in it, if you look at the first 5 ingredients, only 1 is meat.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    "what dogster said"
    but, it seems a pretty good dog food, but it's hard to know how much meat IS in it.

    Here are some reviews of Holistic "Select":

    The Holistic "Blend" seems better:

    I couldn't find price-per-pound on Holistic "Blend"
    but price-per-pound for Holistic Select seems to be usually less than $2 per pound,
    but some flavors are over $3 per pound.

    for that price, of the over $3 per lb flavors------i'd want more meat,
    but, for the lower priced flavors, of less than $2 per lb---> it could be a very decent buy! You could do a lot worse.
    Dogster likes this.
  8. Dlilly Honored Member

    We feed Taste of the Wild. We tried Purina Proplan a few weeks ago because the ingredients looked decent, and we are trying to save money since my dad has been activated, buy the food felt cheap so we switched back to TOTW.

    We fed 4health for a while because we thought the sweet potatoes in TOTW was giving Shiloh yeast infections, but the vet said it wasn't the food. My dogs were fed Iams until 2years ago. The whole dog food thing is very stressful....
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  9. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //" The whole dog food thing is very stressful...."//

    yeah it is! wow, when we first started trying to learn about how to read a dog food label, etc, etc,
    wow, we felt overwhelmed....our heads just exploded.:eek: It does get easier and easier to know what to look for.

    but one does have to be so careful when choosing dog foods.
    I can understand a person who has to use cheapest dog food that they can find, i do understand that. These ppl may have no other options on their budget, and are doing the best they can, sometimes for multiple large dogs.

    What i do NOT understand, is when ppl pay higher prices for crappy dog foods.

    the other thing i truly do NOT understand,
    is when vets stand there, look you right in the eye, and recommend crappy corn-filled dog foods that cost up to $3 or $4 per pound. grrrrrrrrr......
    Dogster likes this.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

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  11. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    I'm going to step into this just to provide some information -- I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak! I avoid by-products in the foods I buy my own dog and cat, because I prefer for ingredients to be named, and although I think dogs do very well as omnivores, I strongly advocate a low-carb, high protein/fat diet for cats who are obligate carnivores. I think diet is important in an animal's health, and post the following info because I think that the more factual arguments are, the more convincing they are. Please be sure to click the hyperlinks for more info.

    Corn is not a filler, and it is highly digestible. It's also a source of protein. Brewer's rice and corn are both nutritionally useful to dogs. Whether or not there are better ingredients out there is another question!

    This is a common misconception. The legal definition of by-products:
    - MEAT BY-PRODUCTS (page 369, AAFCO 2011): "meat by-products is the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat [which is basically muscle], derived from slaughtered mammals. it includes, but is not limited to lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth, and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind, it must correpond therein."
    - ANIMAL BY-PRODUCT MEAL (page 371, AAFCO 2011): "animal by-product meal is the rendered product from animal tissues, exclusive of any added hair, hoof, horn, hid trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents, except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. It shall not contain added extraneous materials not provided for by this definition. This ingredient definition is intended to cover those individual rendered animal tissue products that cannot meet the criteria as set forth elsewhere in this section. This ingredient is not intended to be used to label a mixture of animal tissue products"

    Basically, in the US, by-products are the stuff that we won't eat, though many people in other countries eat this. My Italian grandfather happily ate kidneys, and "giblets" etc. By-products, by the above definition, are the exact parts that animals would eat first in a carcass. The guts, the blood, the organs. It's always the biggest baddest lion or wolf who gets the belly seat on a freshly killed animal, and this is because organ meat is highly nutritious (and probably tastes good). It's common in pet foods because it's a by-product in this country due to our aversion for liver, brains, and kidneys. People who feed their animals livers, bones, hearts, and tripe are feeding by-products, legally defined.

    Now as I said, I do avoid buying foods with by-products because I prefer to have exactly identifiable ingredients. I think it's probably impossible for the companies to list it, since the composition would change (more tripe in one batch, more lungs and hearts in another). But there's no feathers, hooves, or poop in by-products and it's probably a very nutritious part of the food.

    Cellulose is a source of insoluble fiber in mammalian diets. It's not generally harmful, and will help animals with certain digestive issues.

    Animal digest is defined by AAFCO as: "Material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed."

    So, stuff like broth. It's not a good sign in a food because it's what some cheapies use to make the label able to say "chicken flavored" rather than use a quantity of chicken meat to earn the label "chicken." If that makes sense.

    I looked into this stuff quite extensively a few years ago when my late dog needed (gasp!) a prescription diet, and the entire internet said the sky would fall if I fed my dog one of the evil rx diets full of toxic, undigestible crap. So I investigated each claim, and felt a lot better about the rx diet in the end. I fed it because he needed it, and I would have fed something else if he didn't, but it wasn't the end of the world and he did very well on it, actually.
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  12. rouen Experienced Member

    My two eat Wellness Core. It's pricey but a 12lb bag lasts about 3-4 weeks. That's about $10 per week. They also get the 95% canned foods. Wellness also sends coupons in their monthly news letter.
    We've recently gotten Before Grain in the store, I want to try them with the B.G. 95% Bison. Really wish I could find some Canine Caviar canned beaver.
    Dingo also gets some raw, Dasy doesn't like raw meat.
    tigerlily46514 and Dogster like this.
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Ah, corn is barely digestible to humans!! not to get TOO graphic, :censored: on a site, but, corn is NOT even entirely digestible to humans, :rolleyes: and is not really digestible to dogs either.

    Brewers rice are little tiny hulls off of rice, or, much like peanut shells. Brewers rice is NOT "rice".
    Your link to support that feeding dogs peanut shells and corn, only states neither item made the dogs glycemic index go completely bonkers,------not that either item is GOOD for dogs to eat on a regular basis. (i did not study it in depth, only to get idea of what exactly about corn they WERE studying)

    The def of NONSPECIFIFED "MEAT" byproducts can even include euthanized dogs!!:eek: ( i learned this from our member here named Dogster,:LOL: i couldn't believe it at first either)
    and this one is graphic, too....:cry:
    and yes, "animal digest" can be poop, actual poop.

    //"Cellulose is a source of insoluble fiber in mammalian diets. It's not generally harmful, and will help animals with certain digestive issues."//

    True, i never claimed feeding one's dog cardboard is toxic, no need to call 911 if your dog eats a cardboard box,
    but, one has a right to know that IS what is in the bag they are buying. For real, who would buy dog food that has cardboard in it, if they knew? or could afford better?
    I bet eating cardboard also doesn't much bother one's glycemic index, either, but, that doesn't equate to be "good for dogs to eat", see?

    Yes, many ppl are told to feed their dogs one of the "prescription" diets,:cautious:
    and that is exactly how this dentist, having been advised to feed his dog "prescription" bags of corn,
    and LATER realizing what IS in dog foods!! :eek: began a much respected site called
    "Dog Food"

    Here is his story of how he began the site after being convinced by a vet to give his dog a "prescription" dog food:

    Here's what he says about corn::rolleyes:

    I can find multiple other sources on how corn is not great for dogs, if you want me to, it's just so rare to find anyone who defends corn in dog foods.:eek:

    I think more ppl have a right to know,
    what IS in their bags of overpriced:poop: crapola,

    what those words on the label even MEAN,
    what dogs are SUPPOSED TO BE eating,
    and i think more ppl should compare---price per pound---what they ARE getting for what they are paying per pound.

    I have way less problem, with honest dog foods like Ol Roy, charging only a small amount per pound for their bags of cardboard and corn and byproducts,
    than i do with dog foods who charge several dollars per pound:eek: for exact same thing.
    Dogster likes this.
  14. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    TL, I'm not arguing with you on whether or not corn is the best ingredient for a dog's diet. I commented because you specifically said it was filler and indigestible, and it is neither of those.

    Whole kernels of corn come out in feces because neither dogs nor humans can digest the outer husk of the kernel. Corn meal (smashed up corn, corn flour, etc.) is very digestible both by humans and dogs.

    See my opening comment re: what my point was.

    Do you have a reference for this? The AAFCO definition doesn't imply that feces can be added under the 'animal digest' definition.

    It's Metamucil, not cardboard. And fiber is a recommended ingredient in some cases.

    People whose dogs concentrate copper in their livers don't have much choice, as I didn't. You know what has copper in it? every.thing. I'm grateful that someone concocted a low-copper food. I added fresh eggs and cottage cheese to it to boost the animal protein without boosting copper. My dog lived 5 years after diagnosis and did not die from copper toxicosis, so I'm grateful for that too.

    I personally know of only one other case where an rx diet was so valuable. My friend's cat makes crystals in her bladder such that she'd cry out while urinating from the pain of having these teensy shards move out of her bladder. No one knows why she made these crystals, despite the best foods, raw foods, extra water in food ('dilution is the solution' in 99.99% of cases) but thank goodness someone had made a dissolution diet, so the cat can pee without passing a snow-globe's worth of glass splinters. To me, the need for these diets is slim but present.

    Regarding the horrified face that someone might defend corn, see my opening comment. I don't give a hoot about corn, I just advocate making fact-based claims when discussing it.

    If you have links peer-reviewed journal studies (not dog food blogs) on corn and its inappropriateness as part of a canine diet, I'd love to see them, for future reference. It'd be nice to have these studies at hand when needed.
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Nah, i still see corn as a filler,
    because dogs are intended to eat meat, see? And since the cheapo dog food companies can not, or will not, make the kibble out of mostly meat,
    they stuff in cheap fillers,
    like cellulose (which can be in plant matter, but can also be CARDBOARD)
    and corn.
    to "fill" the dog stomachs, to "fill" the bag up, so it is, indeed, a "filler", by defnition. A quick google can you help you better understand what "brewers rice" IS, i'll post links if you want me to.

    The article i posted discussed at length, the ways *some* forms of corn are digestible,
    and some forms are not, for a dog.

    //"If you have links peer-reviewed journal studies (not dog food blogs) on corn and its inappropriateness as part of a canine diet,"//

    Your link never ever said it was appropriate,
    it only said, when tested, it did not make the dogs who were tested have glycemic index go bezerk.
    which is NOT the same thing as saying that is "appropriate" part of a dogs diet.
    We could probably feed our dogs paper, cardboard, peanut shells,
    and none of those items would seriously mess up a dog's glycemic index, either.

    so you feel free to find me a peer reviewed study which says it IS good for dogs to eat corn, and i will look for some scientists to state that says dogs should be fed meat and are primarily carnivores.:LOL: (so if you put cheapo ingredients in a bag of dog food, those items are "fillers" to expand the meat to look like more food, see?) DOGS DO NOT "NEED" CORN!

    It's so so rare to find anyone say corn IS an appropriate ingredient in dog food, i am amazed.
    I love love love science, but some things,
    like feeding dogs starchy low protein items like corn,
    and saying "ey, it didn't blow the dogs glycemic index completely outa the water as much as the sorghum did"
    and equating that with "must be appropriate part of dogs diet" is an abuse of science, imo.

    The article i posted DOES have footnotes you can refer to, as well. The Dog Food Advisor is pretty noncontroversial, well respected resource for canine nutrition. check it out!
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    i am accidentally finding several articles and some research stating corn DOES mess up a dog's glycemic index, brb.
  17. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    I guess I assumed filler would mean something that has no nutritional value.

    I don't need help understanding what brewer's rice is.

    No, because that wasn't my point. Since your point was that it wasn't, I thought you might have had access to some scientific studies showing the effects of corn in a canine diet. BTW there were two links in my original post regarding the digestibility of corn (which, again, was the only thing I was addressing).

    I haven't looked into that, since (again) that wasn't my point. Some people might start with the assumption that animals who evolved as omnivorous scavengers do ok with grains, and go from there. But, usually these nutritional studies show boring things like how much energy can be gained from XYZ food (corn, fish meal, etc.), how digestible it is, etc. rather than a bigger-picture study. We do know that corn is very digestible and a source of energy when eaten in a -meal or -flour form. As far as "is X better than Z or Y?" I don't know of any studies looking at that for any food component.

    I'm not sure if you're amazed at me, since I haven't said that, but maybe you mean in general. I guess veterinary nutritionists think corn is ok, and they have 12 years of study behind them, but I'm not a vet nutritionist and haven't said that so I can't comment in that regard.

    I'm starting to get slightly confused. The article didn't say that corn must be appropriate, and I didn't say that, so I don't know who is abusing science here. Also, the point of both the articles was to show that corn is highly digestible.

    Didn't you see my link on fiber? That was from the dogfoodadvisor site :) As far as pretty noncontroversial and well respected, I think most veterinary professionals would not cite a site belonging to a human dentist, and also he claims his inspiration is having unintentionally starved his dog to death with an rx food, and that seems controversial.

    As I've mentioned multiple times now, I do not take it upon myself to defend this ingredient or that ingredient. I think that strong arguments can be made for the lack of need of corn and brewer's rice in dog foods, without claiming they are indigestible filler. And you can certainly state that not all dogs would benefit from insoluble fiber in the diet. That's all.
  18. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    Don't sweat it, at least not for this thread as it's not pertinent. One of the articles I linked to mentioned GI but the reference within the thread was to digestibility, that's all.
  19. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    You make some good points, Adriana.:) I think, some manufacturers *could* probably provide byproducts that are actually healthy, but i suspect most do not:cautious: , and use slaughterhouse waste instead of livers, etc.

    "Chicken By-Product Meal - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice." ~ AAFCO definition.

    Intestines have poop :poop: in them.
    Btw, AAFCO does not regulate the dog food industry,
    so even if AAFCO says "those intestines you are adding in with the dead dogs to the animal digest, should have the poop shaken out first" or whatever,
    it's up to the dog manufacturer to take the time, to look through the vat of animal parts, and find and pull out all those intestines,:rolleyes: and shake them out first.:rolleyes:
    yeah, i bet they do that....uhm, sure they do.

    but, the dog food industry doesn't even have to empty out intestines of chickens, anyway. Chicken intestines can be added in "as is". Someone on DTA recently mentioned their dog gets diarrhea from eating chicken poop.

    so whether or not you feel poop:poop: is good for dogs,
    or bad for dogs,
    if the bag has "chicken byproducts" there's poop in it.:poop:

    sorry, had to edit this post, font came out so so weird!:LOL:
  20. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //", I think most veterinary professionals would not cite a site belonging to a human dentist, and also he claims his inspiration is having unintentionally starved his dog to death with an rx food, and that seems controversial."//

    wow, THAT's your interpretation of THIS story??:eek:
    when he DID follow his professional VETS advice on one of those "prescription" diets which are almost invariably just bags of corn + byproducts anyway??

    I will agree, the VET'S advice WAS controversial,:cautious:imo, that vet did contribute to the death of the dog with his lousy advice on what to feed the dog.

    but i don't find the dog owner thinking a vet knows about dog nutrition as that odd, or "controversial".

    Even you seem to think vets know about dog nutrition.
    The dentist did what most humans do, he trusted his vet, and figured a vet would know about dog food.

    I do NOT trust vets as nutrition resources,
    and most vets seem to push Purina, Eukanuba, Iams!! Hill's "Science Diet", etc, as 'good' to feed to a dog.:eek:
    nope, YOU can choose to see vets as a resource about what to feed a dog, Adrianna, but for me, i'm going with the dentist who researches dog foods and posts unbiased reports on them!!! Call me crazy,
    but, between most vets,
    and the dentist on DogFoodAdvisor,
    i trust the dentist on DFA wayyyyyyyy more than most vets. WAY more!!

    Most vets either don't know
    or don't care
    about dog nutrition,:cry: but, i've never been able to figure out which one it is. Obviously, vets who are selling the dog food right in the office, have some financial gain involved as well.

    Having been so misguided in the past by vets,:cautious: and reading so many stories on DTA here from others who have been told by vets to feed crappy dog foods,:mad:
    that first thing i'd do if a VET recommends any dog food,
    is run to the dentist who educated his own self on dog nutrition.:ROFLMAO:
    in a heartbeat.
    I had to learn all by myself, too, when i rescued a dog so boney and malnourished he could not run, and could only barely walk.

    I have other back up places to look over too, but DogFoodAdvisor is my FIRST stop!
    I worry about people who trust vets as nutritional resources:rolleyes: ...those are the ones who end up feeding bags of poison-coated corn and byproducts.

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