Covered In Scabs

Discussion in 'Dog Health' started by Mr-Remington, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //" I, personally, have yet to be convinced that raw food is ideal, partly because I am grossed out by it, partly because of the high protein levels, and partly because I worry about them being unbalanced."//

    Lol, your being grossed out by it, is not any indicator what an animal is eating is wrong. Is probably a good chance you'd be grossed out to see a lion eating a zebra, yet, that is what lions need to eat.
    The "high protein levels" is often batted around, but, most ppl think high protein levels are not a concern for dogs, whereas low protein could be dangerous to some dogs.:
    and most meat is just about the same % of protein as many kibbles are, or less.

    at any rate, i have FAR more concerns about the crapola being sold in bags of dogfood than i ever ever would about what dogs were designed to be eating---meat.
    After 15,000+ years of dogs being around, the industrially manufactured dog food is relatively NEW invention in past century.

    and yes, reasonable people can all disagree about whether or not dogs need a bit of fruit or veggies, and one can raw feed while including some veggies, or not. Either way, i don't think adding or leaving out a small amount of veggies harms a dog.

    NOw, your concern about a homemade dog food being unbalanced is totally valid, though.
    BUT-----Near as i can tell, *most* humans who attempt to make their own dog food,
    and *most* raw feeders,
    seem very open to learning how to do it properly. Many find the idea a bit daunting at first, and actively seek out info on how it's done.
    Many raw feeders become like lil dog nutrition experts, concerning themselves with even fairly mundane details (like which type of calcium is best, etc etc) and not at all what i'd consider lackadaisical about it.

    i'm racking my brain, if i have ever heard of a raw feeder who had any complaints about their dog's health as a result of raw feeding....seems like everyone i have heard of, who has tried it, has become big fan of it and remark how healthy their dogs are, how white their teeth are, how glossy their coats are, how odorless their dogs breath and skin is, etc etc.
    I can't recall hearing of anyone whose dog developed allergies to raw feeding...
    Dogster likes this.

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"Possibly. SOME dogs, but certainly not all dogs, develop aggressive behavior when they are eating a high protein diet. Lowering the protein content in their food may help reduce the aggressive behavior. "//

    This is the opinion of the person who wrote that, and a new one to me!! Zero footnotes on his remark, cuz there is no research to back it up. I'd bet, i could feed any aggressive dog you bring me crackers for a week, or a month,
    and if dog was still alive at end of month,
    he'd still be aggressive. (if no rehab was being done).
    No idea where that person came up with that notion, maybe he watched lions attacking some human on Nat'l Geographic, and extrapolated, "AH HA!! It's eating meat that makes animals 'aggressive'."
    who knows! but rofl, it's a doozy of a theory!

    btw, dogs, like all animals,
    CAN distinguish one species from another, very easily, often at a glance, just like we humans can.

    AGAIN-----THE % OF PROTEIN IN MEAT (often about 22% to 28% for various meats, average for chicken is 26% protein)
    Dogster likes this.
  3. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"I do suspect that its these foods that are rated as "6 star" foods are the ones promoting the website"//

    do you refer to DogFoodAdvisor? website?

    The guy who runs that, a dentist,
    lost a dog to feeding his dog lousy dog food, at his vet's recommendation.

    He is often accused of taking money by ppl honked off he is not into the crappy dog foods sold in human grocery stores,
    but, his DETAILED reviews are right there, to see how/why he rates the dog foods, and how/why he gives various dog foods the rating he give them. He also adds "the problem with dog food reviews" to the bottom of EVERY dog food review he posts.

    still, ppl figure he must be being paid. However, look over how many dog foods he would be getting money from (so many competing brands get good reviews)
    and how many many many many MORE 100s and 100s dog food brands, he must be refusing money from.???? why would he refuse their money?? Purina for example, is way way into marketting, and is a powerful force in dog foods, yet, don't get great reviews.

    even common sense should cause one to suspect that idea that someone is paying him doesn't make a lot of sense....nowhere on his whole site,
    does he give a high rating to poisonous bags of corn and byproducts.

    The site admin of DFA (DogFoodAdvisor) gets that accusation so often, that in several places on the site, he addresses that very question:
    // We never accept money, gifts or free merchandise from any pet food manufacturer in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings. To learn more, please visit our Disclaimer and Disclosure page.//
    Dogster likes this.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"(from a pet food company that has a high protein diet, so I would say thats a pretty reliable source.."//

    the 28% listed in the dog food on that website,
    matches the 28% in many meats. I don't think of 28% as outrageously high protein level. It's about right, imo. not "high".

    i think you may be mistakenly thinking that meat is 100% protein?? is that right?
    it's not.
    Most meats are 21% to 28% protein range.

    some kibbles do list protein % as high as in the 40% range, but, not all protein is bio-available, either.
    Dogster likes this.
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //" another VERY common allergy is a flea allergy. Since he has SO much scabbing around his rump area, I would definitely make sure there is a good flea prevention in the picture."//

    great point!!
    i so completely agree!!

    i just figured, she would have noticed and mentioned fleas by now, but, sure worth looking at!
  6. DaniG Well-Known Member

    I mostly add in the grossed out part of it as a little bit of humor, and oddly enough, I am not grossed out by a lion eating a zebra, in fact I used to work/interned at a couple of aquariums and had to de-beak and de-spine squid, chop raw fish up, filet them, and all that fun stuff. Raw meat in a slab is just gross to me.

    The protein levels in raw dog food is a VERY common misconception, since you have to take moisture into consideration. So while the label on raw food may SAY 13%, 13% with 70% moisture is actually 40-50% moisture (I forget how to do the actual calculation off of my head, but I recall it being in that range from having a similar discussion with other people).

    While the MAJORITY of a dog's diet does need to be meat, they were not designed to eat meat and only meat, like a cat is. They do need things other than meat in their diet.
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //"But she's terrified of how to give it to him. She called me panicing saying. "But it has bones and blood. Its raw meat, he could choke on the bones or get sick and die." I too am still having a little trouble understanding if she just gives it to him that way or does she need to do anything to it first?"//

    Remember RAW bones only, NO COOKED BONES!!!
    scroll down----this very question, "won't my dog choke?" is addressed here:

    and again, there IS some learning involved to achieve a balanced raw diet,
    with 80% muscle meat
    10% bones
    10% organ meat.

    Many raw feeders think each meal does not have to be 80-10-10, but, over the period of the day or two, we should strive for 80-10-10.
    Dogster likes this.
  8. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //While the MAJORITY of a dog's diet does need to be meat, they were not designed to eat meat and only meat, like a cat is. They do need things other than meat in their diet.//

    Yeah, like i said, reasonable people can disagree about whether or not one needs to give a dog veggies. Not my objection at all, i give my dog some veggies now and then.

    Like i said, one can raw feed and add fruits/veggies
    raw feed and use meat only,
    i don't think adding nor leaving out a few veggies much impacts a dogs health either way.
    Dogster likes this.
  9. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    I think an important factor,
    for some dogs switching to new dog foods,
    (but often left out of discussions of that topic)
    HOW FAST the switch was done.

    Some dogs can not tolerate rapid swap outs of dog foods, BUT, if done slowly, swapping out only a few kibbles at a time, over the period of a week or two,
    that dog food can work out just fine.
    but, if done all at once, batta boom, batta bang, here's something entirely different! might upset some dogs digestion.
    Dogster likes this.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //Whoops, and a correction from my earlier post... its dogfoodanalysis that I am not a big fan of! Dogfoodadvisor I have not used much.//

    OHhhh, i misunderstood, like i said, i wonder if the person who runs dogfoodanalysis
    is even still alive???? review updates in years and years now. I think we have to stop linking dogfoodanalysis, as their reviews are quickly becoming outdated...most recent review (that i can find anyway, was back in 2009)

    but, i generally like DogFoodAdvisor. :D I have posted questions there, and got reply from both many experts who lurk there, as well as the site admin himself.:eek::D I have learned a lot there.
    Dogster likes this.
  11. DaniG Well-Known Member

    I have heard this on more than one occasion, but that was the most convenient source I could think of off the top of my head. Another source is Victoria Stilwell:

    "When you feed a high protein diet to a dog that does not do a lot of exericise there can be significant changes in behavior. High protein = high energy and if a dog does not have the chance to exerice and get rid of that energy , he or she can become more frustrated, irritable and more reactive. James O'Heare has done some studies on the affects of high protein diets, but personally I have had so much success helping reactive and/or aggressive dogs by changing diet alone to a lower performance ration. Again the whole discussion wasn't shown, which is an editing problem, but diet should always be addressed when doing a modification plan. Every dog is unique and reponds differently. (". (This is where I actually first heard of this connection)

    It's not that a high protein diet will CAUSE aggression. But if a dog is being fed a diet that is high protein, and they are not being exercised sufficiently to make up for it, and the dog is already predisposed to aggressive tendencies, then the high protein levels can exacerbate that. I believe I have read a published article or 2 on the subject, but cannot seem to find them at the moment. However, apparently James O'Heare DOES reference it in his Dog Aggression Workbook, but I haven't read the book to make any claims on it, or even how good the book is ;)
  12. DaniG Well-Known Member

    You have to take into consideration water content of the food, which is 10%. So the protein level is actually higher than 28% (in this case it would be 28/90* 100 = 31.1%) (
  13. DaniG Well-Known Member

    You actually may never even see a flea on a flea allergic dog. They react to the flea saliva, so a flea can just hop on bite them and hop off and the dog will react. Duke had an issue when his skin flared up, I didn't have Lin-Zee on flea protection at the time since the other 2 were and she is very sensitive, and a couple days after Duke's skin flared up, I found 1 single flea on Lin-Zee. No flea dirt on them, not a single other flea found, just the 1 on her.
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  14. DaniG Well-Known Member

    This IS a very important factor, that MANY people overlook. I have just observed, again, completely anecdotally (or however you spell that, if its even a word! :ROFLMAO:) that when a dog comes in for diarrhea, and I ask if they have recently switch foods, the most common brand I hear is Blue.
  15. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Yes, i have no doubt you can find any number of opinions on what causes aggression in dogs. I can not find the remark you link on the Victoria Stillwell's site.
    I readily agree,
    that NOT EXERCISING a dog, ANY dog, might exaberate behavioral problems!! I am so high-fiving you on that one!!
    but, meat is only about 21% to 28% protein.
    so is most dog kibble.

    so the point is lost on me.

    also, not exercising dogs
    who are fed lousy low protein diets,
    may cause same behavioral problems.

    and i've read tons and tons and tons of opinions on what causes dog aggression,
    i've been studying this for years now.
    I've read blogs and articles (NOT research, but blogs)
    even from top dog authorities,
    that i disagree with. I think most cases of PERSISTENT lifelong inappropriate aggression in dogs is genetic,
    and so do most researchers, veterinary researchers, and geneticists. I need to post new thread with alll the tons of links to actual research in locating the genes which cause both persistent shyness in dogs,
    and persistent dog-aggression in dogs,
    which i have on those two topics, but, it always causes soooooo much outrage and hubbaloo, i kind of postpone posting it....people throw tomatoes when they hear that,
    cuz we've all been told,
    by eveyrone
    that abuse/neglect/improper socialization/etc (and now, eating meat)
    causes dog aggression.
    but, scientists have proven the persistent types of aggression, or the persistently shy dog,
    have a neurobiological disorder, visible in their brains when you scan such dogs.

    yet, we are all told it's cuz the human raised the dog wrong.
    or now, cuz the dog was fed meat.:rolleyes:

    to me, it is almost like "The Emporer's Clothes" children's book---we tend to see what we are told is there. "Persistently Aggressive dogs are raised wrong or being mishandled" when 1000s of rescued severely abused dogs stand there loving everyone and every dog.

    makes no sense.

    Lots of dogs are raw fed, and love eveyrone and all dogs.
    makes no sense to say raw feeding could cause aggression.
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //You have to take into consideration water content of the food, which is 10%.//

    water content in meat is 80%.

    for past 15,000 years, dogs ate meat.
    Dogs were designed to eat meat.

    Wild dogs eat meat.

    Industrial, mass produced manufactured dog food is only in past's NOT what dogs were designed to eat.
    but meat is what dogs were designed to eat.
  17. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //that when a dog comes in for diarrhea, and I ask if they have recently switch foods, the most common brand I hear is Blue.//

    i'd also ask HOW FAST they switched the food. I think for some dogs, that matters. I'm no big fan of Blue, btw, i'm just saying, i bet i could switch my dog to Old Roy or Purina dog food just fine, IF IF IF i swap out only A FEW KIBBLES day by day,
    over the period of a week or two.
  18. DaniG Well-Known Member

    I ABSOLUTELY agree with you that aggression does have a genetic component in some cases of aggression, whether it be dog on dog, or dog on human, or what have you. Duke is a perfect example of dog on dog aggression having a genetic component to it - I have had him since he was 12 weeks old (puppy mill dog from a pet store before I know better :oops:), at the time I worked at a doggy daycare. He was socialized during the critical socialization period of 8-16 weeks (well, 12-16 weeks). I had him neutered at 5 months of age (which some studies are starting to show that early spay/neuter may increase aggressive tendencies, but I'm not ready to say I believe that one just yet since the article I read only had a sample size of 16 dogs I believe). When he was 10 months old, he bit a chunk of another dog's ear clean off, and has since bitten other dogs before I really learned how to properly manage him. I have him well managed, but I know that he will never be "fixed". I DID do a few things (or a lot of things :whistle: .... I was only 20 and he was my first dog that was mine) wrong when I first started out with him, but he is the reason I became a dog trainer to begin with, and since have corrected many of MY mistakes, and yet he is still not trustworthy around dogs that are not Athena & Lin-Zee. Even though he is stimulated, exercised, and WAS socialized during those critical weeks, he is still untrustworthy. His thyroid is perfect, in fact, the only thing wrong with him medically is the fact he has Lyme Disease, but the bacteria levels in him are so low it's not even applicable (I just did bloodwork on him 2 months ago). There really is no other explanation for his dog on dog aggression that isn't genetic.

    Nowhere have I said that feeding meat causes aggression. As you have pointed out, many meats are 21-28% protein (which is actually a number that I did not know, however I did know that they were not 100% protein), so I am not saying that feeding meat causes aggression. What I have been saying, is that in some dogs, who are already predisposed to aggression (very likely because of genetics), may become more aggressive when fed a high protein diet. I do believe the same is true of dogs that are fed a diet of mostly corn, and perhaps moreso (I don't have anything specific to cite, but it was just something that I happened upon while scanning for my other references).

    I, for one, would love to see the articles/blogs you mention. I definitely understand your hesitance about it, but I am very interested. Maybe shoot me a private message with them if you don't want to post them yet??

    I would also like to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed this debate/discussion with you. It is very rare that I can have this conversation with someone without anyone getting angry or defensive. I enjoy this discussion because I have nothing against feeding raw, as long as it is being done correctly, but MY opinion is that it is not necessarily the ideal way to feed. Kibble probably isn't either, and quite honestly if I had the gumption I would probably actually cook for my dogs - but I don't even like cooking for myself :ROFLMAO:.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  19. DaniG Well-Known Member

    I meant of the Taste of the Wild Food has a moisture content of 10% which I was referencing before, which I probably should have made more clear :oops:
  20. DaniG Well-Known Member

    That is always my next question if they tell me they have recently switched foods.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.

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