Benefits Of A Shaped Dog In Everyday Life!

[sara]

So I have to tell you all this. Mouse is almost exclusively trained through shaping (since I figured out she wasn't learning anything through luring anyway )
and she is the only dog I've done this with. Oliver's still a "crossover dog" expecting to be told what to do, though he does ok at free-shaping, he's not great at offering new behaviours without encouragement (verbal or physical). But Mouse has flourished with shaping, and is EXCELLENT at it .

Well a couple of weeks ago, I took her to my friend's house. We were cooking a big dinner for us and her roommate. Mouse was being VERY annoying with getting underfoot (maybe/possibly/perhaps you might drop something?) so I took her to the entrance between the kitchen and the dining room and told her to stay, then periodically fed her tidbits (yes my dogs get stuff when I'm cooking ) She then stayed there everytime we were in the kitchen

Well tonight we did the same thing, and as Mouse and the cat are fantastic entertainment for us, I brought her along again! As soon as I started cooking, she again came underfoot, but as it wasn't annoying me, and my friend wasn't helping in the kitchen at the moment (DUH SOMEONE had too keep an eye on the 2nd game of the Stanley Cup finals!!! What if we, heaven forbid, missed a goal???) So I just ignored Mouse, and stepped over her, as I'm apt to do in my own home (you do get used to stepping over 7" doggies on the floor when you have 2 that like to be underfoot! They might miss something, don'cha' know!).

So my brilliant and awesome little munchkin decided to try something else to get a piece of pork chop/broccoli/rice! She WENT AND SAT AT THE ENTRANCE!!!!! My perfect little free-thinking dog!!!! She offered a behaviour that previously worked to get her some dinner!!!

Every other dog I know, would have to be told so many times, before learning that was where they were supposed to be! I have NEVER seen ANY of my dogs (past or present) OFFER to move away from food! they have ALL had to be given a command!

You can bet your a** I rewarded heavily!!!

Clicker dogs are AWESOME, and dogs trained purely with shaping? UNREAL!

p.s. I thought I should stress this point: Mouse is SERIOUSLY OBSESSED with food! Food is her reason for living, breathing and well, living! LOL She is worse than any Lab or Spaniel I have ever seen! She spends every waking minute looking for food. For her to actually move away from food (big kitchen btw) WILLINGLY, is a herculean feat!

 

[Dogster]

That is cool. WOW Shivon's always at my feet, LOL. She's sleeping soundly but as soon as I open the fridge, and rustle that packet of meat or cheese, she'srightthere, LOL She loves our kitchen more than any of us do

 

[jackienmutts]

Isn't that just so cool????? And now, I bet she's gonna try that more often - cuz that slot machine paid off!! Woo-hoo! Dogs def do what works for them, and they think (and remember) a whole lot more than we think they do (or sometimes give them credit for). I love hearing that!!! Go Mouse!!!

 

[Dogster]

By the way, you wrote it soo funny. Hilarious, Sara!!!! Very cute story!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

That is great, Sara!! YAY FOR MOUSE!!
my dog also figures out best place to be, too, and is also food obsessed. (he is NOT the underfoot kind at all, is very considerate dog, although, just almost never underfoot unless we turn around too fast when walking through house).

My last dog was an underfoot dog, drove me nuts when we were bringing in groceries, we could not see him since the bags blocked our view, and tended to trip over him a bit now and then when we carried in bags,
so i told him one (1)time, to sit over here, rewarded that, praising him, and giving him a series of treats for sitting over THERE, just like you did, Sara,
and it worked like a charm!!
and he did sit over there, ever after, for all grocery unloading.
My dog, and my last dog (not a whiz by anyone's measure) both could get some stuff on one instruction.

dogs really DO make powerful associations to stuff they get rewarded for, whether lured or free shaped, or never formally trained at all----------dogs often seem to make mental notes of stuff they got rewards for doing.
I sort of think, ^that IS the basis for positive only training.
Many of us can testify, that one (1) wrong click, can sure take a lil while to "undo"!! Dogs really do notice what IS rewarded!!! and i really really think, dogs DO want to please us, i really really think that.
I think dogs are soooooooo much smarter than we give them credit for.

 

[tigerlily46514]

// periodically fed her tidbits (yes my dogs get stuff when I'm cooking ) //


oh, so do i!! and as much as possible, my dog licks bowls, pans, beaters, too!!
but, i do ask for a trick, for each and every bit, even if it is only a "smile" (lol, Buddy now has a default "smile" if i am in kitchen )
or a "look at me" while food is by his face,
or a "stand" or whatever------------- doesnt' have to be big fancy trick ,
but since i DO have to limit the number of foods per day for *my* dog to keep him slim,
i try to get something back for every single one of those limited bits of food.
I also make my whole family do the same. It's okay if they share their food, but Buddy has to earn it. It's a good way to keep Buddy sharp on his tricks, and help family remember how to ask for this trick or that trick, too.


my inlaws think that is "mean" to ask for a behavior for each bit of food, but, Buddy is happy to do them. ........and my inlaws dogs are all fat, and won't even come when called, and know zero tricks at all.

 

[Dogster]

// periodically fed her tidbits (yes my dogs get stuff when I'm cooking ) //


oh, so do i!! and as much as possible, my dog licks bowls, pans, beaters, too!!
but, i do ask for a trick, for each and every bit, even if it is only a "smile" (lol, Buddy now has a default "smile" if i am in kitchen )
or a "look at me" while food is by his face,
or a "stand" or whatever------------- doesnt' have to be big fancy trick ,
but since i DO have to limit the number of foods per day for *my* dog to keep him slim,
i try to get something back for every single one of those limited bits of food.
I also make my whole family do the same. It's okay if they share their food, but Buddy has to earn it. It's a good way to keep Buddy sharp on his tricks, and help family remember how to ask for this trick or that trick, too.


my inlaws think that is "mean" to ask for a behavior for each bit of food, but, Buddy is happy to do them. ........and my inlaws dogs are all fat, and won't even come when called, and know zero tricks at all.

LOL, I do this too. Can't resist the temptation.

 

[tigerlily46514]

hee hee, i do think it's sooooo fun to watch a dog "doing the dishes"!!

 

[Amateur]

I love shaping behaviours ... I always thought it was the lazy persons way of training but its the end results that count. Smert lil' dog there

 

[tigerlily46514]

this wasn't really a "shaped" behavior, was it? as Sara told Mouse where to sit, and then rewarded Mouse for sitting there, repeatedly praising him and giving treats for sitting THERE. And then, Mouse remembered, "Mom wants me to sit HERE"
right? He was told/lured whatever to sit there, right?

but it does sure sound like Sara is making a lot of progress with Mouse in the last half year of training Mouse,
and i really kind of think,
the more tricks and cues a dog DOES know, and the more often one trains a dog, and rewards a dog,
the EASIER it gets for some dogs to "get it" faster, to focus more on US, to learn stuff easier. i think brains like any other muscle, use it or lose it. and Mouse is def using her brain with all the training in past 6 mos!! (Sara once posted she mostly only just started succeeding with Mouse in past 6 mos, as she says that luring won't work on Mouse cuz he is food obsessed, so i'm assuming the bulk of his tricks have been learned in past 6 mos, so now, i'd bet that Mouse's brain is really ON!! ). WAY TO GO SARA!! YET ANOTHER DOG WHO IS "WEARING HIS THINKING CAP"!!!

 

[sara]

No it wasn't a shaped behaviour, but Mouse has learned through shaping to think for herself, not just react to me. That's the point I was getting at

My childhood dogs weren't allowed upstairs at my Grandma's house, when we were cooking or eating. They had to stay on the porch. but they had to be told, every single time, for the 15 years we had them, that they had to go downstairs. they did first command, every time, but they still had to be told...

Mouse is the first dog that I have ever seen, that didn't have to be told!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yes, this seems like a lured behavior. You lured Mouse to learn where to sit. (btw, not all luring involves FOOD, we can lure with fingers, coaxing, target items, toys, etc)
and Mouse must have been thinking, as she was lured.

cuz she remembered the lesson, even though she was lured, Mouse must have been THINKING!!!!! SEE?
Everyone says lured dogs do not "think" but, i say "yes, they do!" Even Mouse, the dog who can't be lured, learned in one lesson, when lured!!
(or, was it just "muscle memory" that Mouse went to sit in area she knew her mom preferred her to sit? i say no, no it was not just "muscle memory"!! i say that cute lil Mouse WAS "thinking"!!) even though Mouse learned this behavior from being lured AND rewarded.


//They had to stay on the porch. but they had to be told, every single time, for the 15 years we had them, that they had to go downstairs//
did the dogs get rewards for being downstairs? telling a dog to do something, but never rewarding dog when he DOES do it, is probably a waste of time for some dogs. Wasn't that long ago, that rewards weren't really seen as commonplace way to teach a dog a behavior, and instead, scolding wrong behavior WAS wayyyyy more common. but, of course, i don't know your grandmother---------she may have been a progressive dog trainer, way ahead of her time.

And if you were a child were put in charge of training the dogs yourself, well, even you have said in recent times, as an adult, you, like all the rest of us, are still learning, and have learned, as an adult, some new ways to teach a dog things, that are better than old ways were. Dawg, i loved dogs as a kid, OH I DID!! but what i understood about dog training could have fit in a thimble!! We had no internet, we had limited access to ideas (besides books) outside of our lil world back then.

Even to this day, there are still scragglers from the "old school" of thought, still left around, for "punishment" based dog training, and ppl who are STILL skeptical about "positive only" dog training. It's been around, but wasn't the mainstream way for most ppl, not that long ago.


Scolding or moving dogs downstairs every day, or during visits, is not probably luring. nor freeshaping.
I am not sure what that is, really, but, i can see where it wouldn't probably work.

My grandmother, being of those times, also took a long long time to potty train a dog. Most unnnnnbelievable thing, was, back then, it was commonly thought, as most training was punishment based not that long ago,
(both for dogs and for kids)
so in punishment based potty training, if a dog potties in the house, you rub dog's nose in the poop, and put him outdoors. The way my grandmothers house was built into a slanted hill, she put dog out window (ground ws right there at windowsill).

the dog learned, to put his own nose into the poop and jumped out the window.
for real.

the "dog training" used by the average dog owner has come a LONG way in recent times!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

see, although i like free-shaping okay,
now, Sara, maybe you can see why i love luring, cuz it DOES make a dog think,
and it DOES get fast results, when properly rewarded!!

Dogs DO pay att'n to what they are REWARDED for.
I think it is as simple as that, really.

and that is why, one wrong click, one reward given for 1 wrong move,
causes a dog to do that behavior, over
and over. (see video above) DOGS REPEAT what they are REWARDED for. Like Mouse, she was rewarded heavily, and praised, for sitting where her mom lured her to sit. Mouse remembered that, "Mom wants me to sit here., and i get treats and prizes if i sit here, where i was lured to sit."

 

[sara]

Yes, this seems like a lured behavior. You lured Mouse to learn where to sit. (btw, not all luring involves FOOD, we can lure with fingers, coaxing, target items, toys, etc)
and Mouse must have been thinking, as she was lured.

cuz she remembered the lesson, even though she was lured, Mouse must have been THINKING!!!!! SEE?
Everyone says lured dogs do not "think" but, i say "yes, they do!" Even Mouse, the dog who can't be lured, learned in one lesson, when lured!!
(or, was it just "muscle memory" that Mouse went to sit in area she knew her mom preferred her to sit? i say no, no it was not just "muscle memory"!! i say that cute lil Mouse WAS "thinking"!!) even though Mouse learned this behavior from being lured.

Nope Mouse was not lured in any way. I picked her up, put her down in the spot I wanted and told her to stay. No food anywhere near her.

Seriously, you really don't get how much luring does not work with Mouse. Targeting, yes (and I only knew that was any different than luring after that article I posted, which made alot of sense ) I have never, nor will I ever say that dogs cant learn or dont think with luring. But SOME dogs have a harder time with it. and Mouse truly cant learn through luring. I truly did think she was dumb. It would take forever for her to learn a trick (Roll over took MONTHS! and eventually required me pushing her over) She just didn't get that her body movements and behaviours were getting her the food, all she could think about was that there was amazing and awesome FOOD, right THERE in front of her NOSE (oh happy day!!!)

 

[tigerlily46514]

Tif has just recently taught her Bella to do the cue "shy",
and Tif mentioned somewhere, on some thread, that Bella is now offering her "shy" trick even without Tif even asking for it.
Dogs tend to notice, and repeat, what they have been rewarded for......even if lured to do the behavior, it is the reward, i think, that really makes a dog notice "ah ha! this HERE is much liked by my human! well, all righty then!"

 

[tigerlily46514]

//Nope Mouse was not lured in any way. I picked her up, put her down in the spot I wanted and told her to stay. No food anywhere near her.//


well, i am not sure what picking up a dog and putting them somewhere, and then giving them food for being there, IS called. You are right, it sounds like, if you did not lead Mouse to the area you want her to be, probably not luring...not sure what this is then. But, it's not freeshaping.


see, i misunderstood, i felt you were giving Mouse food for staying where you told her to stay.

//so I took her to the entrance between the kitchen and the dining room and told her to stay, then periodically fed her tidbits (yes my dogs get stuff when I'm cooking ) // <----see, to me, you were rewarding Mouse for staying in that spot, or maybe Mouse thought so, too???

 

[sara]

You missed something:

No it wasn't a shaped behaviour, but Mouse has learned through shaping to think for herself, not just react to me. That's the point I was getting at

My childhood dogs weren't allowed upstairs at my Grandma's house, when we were cooking or eating. They had to stay on the porch. but they had to be told, every single time, for the 15 years we had them, that they had to go downstairs. they did first command, every time, but they still had to be told...

Mouse is the first dog that I have ever seen, that didn't have to be told!

I never said that that behaviour was shaped, I said because she's used to thinking for herself and offering behaviours, she offered me a behaviour last night.

 

[tigerlily46514]

// and Mouse truly cant learn through luring.//

I bet,
if you did this:

//so I took her to the entrance between the kitchen and the dining room and told her to stay, then periodically fed her tidbits (yes my dogs get stuff when I'm cooking ) //
only instead of carrying Mouse, called her over to the spot,
this would have been a luring success for Mouse........but, since Mouse didn't walk over there on her own power, it's probably not luring....but, i bet it could have been.

but yeah, i think if dog doesn't walk themself over to the spot, it's probably not luring. but, it's not freeshaping either.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//I never said that that behaviour was shaped,//


oh, i misunderstood by the headline and when you said stuff like THIS,

//Clicker dogs are AWESOME, and dogs trained purely with shaping? UNREAL!//

that you felt, rewarding MOuse, (in fact, teaching Mouse) to sit over HERE, was result of shaping, whereas i see it as result of you have been training her recently and regularly EDIT, sorry i now recall you said you only do weekly lessons or something.
Sara, you might find, that short, quickie DAILY lessons, even 5 minutes per day, might help Mouse have a breakthough with luring. Even Buddy, who adores tricks, can't get a trick with once a week lessons. Worth a shot anyway.


And i think the more tricks a dog has been learning recently, the more their brain is ON, kinda thing. But, hey, it IS your dog, and if you want to see this as a form of freeshaping, or as result of freeshaping, it's your total right to think that, it IS your dog!!
but i think it's just result of having been rewarded for sitting where you told her to.
Sara, you might be darn surprised, if you get a clicker, and some treats, you CAN teach your dogs a default place to be when you cook, (IF you wanted to) It's not hard to teach a dog this IF YOU REWARD the dog for being where you want him to be.
And yes, you can even carry your dog and place them where you want them to be for these lessons whenever you cook, rather than lure them to the spot, if that would help Mouse.

and btw, i still see targeting as a form of luring a dog into a behavior. ONe can also lure with toys, fingers/pointing, coaxing, whatever item lures the dog to do what you want.

All my dogs have or had a default place to sit during cooking(i have no patience for dogs under my feet and tend to run about while cooking) cuz it is so easy to teach, IF YOU REWARD the dog for sitting there. Just "telling them", might not work.

Who knows, maybe cuz of MOuse's limited sensory input, if tricks training might help bring her food obsession (a sense Mouse can fully enjoy and indulge in) down just a notch, as her brain has more stimulation, etc with all her lessons??


and it only takes a short period of time to teach a dog stuff like this. Even a food obsessed dog, can easily be taught where i want you to sit, IF YOU REWARD the dog for sitting THERE..
dogs remember and repeat stuff they get rewarded for.

 

[tigerlily46514]

but, either way, whether Mouse learned that spot gets me food from luring, freeshaping or whatever, IT IS STILL SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE that Mouse can be taught a safe place to sit while you cook!!!
this can even be a safety bonus for YOU, Sara, as i imagine, you use knives, hot pans, etc, when you cook.