Barbie Dogs

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by desertranger, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. desertranger New Member

    A long standing argument between Border Collie owners and the ACK is one of appearance for confirmation in dogs shows. My dog Jin (a Border Collie) would never qualify as a ACK type of dog because his ears do not meet the ACK standard for BCs, he's too long and too tall as well. Then again I've had several dogs turned down by the ACK for similar reasons. Funny that's what we breed BCs for; smart, lanky dogs that can kick sheep butt. Once I found out about that ACK didn't look at intelligence I put them in the same basket as PETA. I won't go into PETA in this post.

    "Your dog," says the ACK, "does not meet the breed standards for a Border Collie". In other words he doesn't look like a BC, his color is wrong, he stands wrong. I'm, sorry BC's are bred for their smarts not looks.

    Who the hell are the ACK, a group of people who believe in a visible standard to take on that kind of attitude. If it wasn't for the ACK we wouldn't have dogs that can't breath properly nor would we have Labradoodles or Pink-a-poos or dogs that fit in tea cups. As recently as 200 years ago there were only general breeds in the world, Working dogs, hunters, guarduians etc. Nw there are hundreds of exotic and specialized breeds many, perhaps the majority, of dogs created so people could have laprats. Note: A laprat is not a dog. It serves no useful purpose except to eat and crap in the yard and provde food for hawks, coyotes and other predators. Many of them have genetic problems and puppy mills keep cranking them out with ACK papers increasing the chances of genetic rejects. I know I have one. A rescue Rough Collie out of a puppy mill that's so screwed up she doesn't even know she's a dog. Abby is beautiful, perfect confirmation and stupid with no interest in anything dog. She was bred that way complete with ACK papers to say she's a Gen-u-wine Rough Collie. It should have also said she was complete with genetic problems. If
    Abby were a properly bred Rough Collie she could tell me where Timmy is. Alas Abby is a Barbie Dog, beautiful, perfect and stupid. Just tryng to teach Abby a down stay was very difficult and after 7 yrs she still doesn't have it down pat. How simple is that to teach; a down stay? Jake the Dobie, another Barbie Dog will at least stay when you tell him to. However Jake too is difficult to teach. He constantly rolls into submission even when rewarded. And don't think I'm comparing them to my BC. That's like doing Apples and PCs.

    Yet there are Barbie BC's. Jin is not one of them although Polly, the BC down the street is one. A blue ribbon ACK best of breed winner. Only I've never met a BC that doesn't do a proper sheepdog lie-down or crouch or was difficult to train and most importantly has no interest at all in sheep. Polly won't chase balls, Frisbees or sheep.

    So beware the Barbie Dogs. Pretty, gentle and often times insecure (both Abby and Polly) don't expect much in the way of them being dogs.

    DefinitionL LapRat A small snarky and yappy dog onh a string with no training.

  2. yoyopoodle Well-Known Member

    It is not just AKC... most kennel clubs around the world are very similar.

    This is a forum for teaching tricks, rather than 'political' views... could you perhaps monitor the tone for future posts on topics that can be inflammatory? Certainly express your opinion (as long as Jean doesn't mind), just in a way that doesn't feel like an attack at anyone whose view differs...
    Some people here do show their dogs in conformation, but they are HERE because they are also interested in tricks and quite possibly other aspects of training.

    My breed's structure has been majorly affected by breeding solely for conformation as well... Poodles seen in the ring typically have ewe necks the length of a giraffe's, fronts so straight that the toes are out under the chin, and rears that are incredibly over-angulated. Not to mention that many judges can't seem to feel the dog under the amount of hair... I wish it was at least acceptable (if not mandatory) to show in a short, basic hair-cut... though it really should not make a difference. Anyone who knows what they are feeling for can recognize a good dog.

    That said, the written standard the AKC has is fine - it describes a lovely, balanced, working dog with a sound mind. It is the poor interpretation that has ruined the breed, not the fact that AKC thinks they should be 'flashy'. Judges can only judge what people bring to the ring... start bringing nice dogs, and the possibility will be there for judges to reward them.

    AKC does not condone puppy mills - unfortunately no one can control the existance of them - and your Abby is very different from any Collie you'd find from a reputable breeder. Puppy mills wreck every dog, regardless of breed.

    Abby is lucky to have been rescued and have a wonderful home now, but she missed critical periods of socialization and learning due to her up-bringing, so even if she had good genetics (very unlikely from a puppy mill background) she would still have a lot of trouble learning and adapting to new situations. Whether or not a dog can ever get over those road-blocks is dependent on that dog, with that owner, and that lifestyle.

    How do you get the impression that -doodles and -apoos wouldn't exist if it weren't for AKC? AKC is quite against 'designer' dogs... they are, generally, open to the possibility of accepting new breeds that were developed for a purpose, and have defined characteristics that hold steady generation after generation without the need for changing the ratios of the breeds that were combined.

    AKC dog quite a bit of good education for people interested in learning about various dog sports, responsible ownership, and promoting spay/neuter of pets.

  3. desertranger New Member

    In the history of dogs todays lap dogs and many specialty breeds all started as designer dogs during the time of Queen Victoria. While the border collie can trace it's lineage back to George Washington who had one modern BCs trace themselves to Old Hemp who was born in 1893 so even the best of thew workinbg dogs is really just over 100 years old.

    No forum is really a forum with out a little controversy if it's kept civilized. Nor is it a furm without humor and the odd bit of whatever.

    Abby is more than fortunate. We got her at 12 weeks. Unfortunately nothing I've been able to do as a trainer and handler has helped. It's taken her entire life to get her barking and whining under control and even that's still a problem. Fortunately she's a very passive dog and listens so I don't have any behavior problems.

    She does recall 110% Fetch 0% Sit 100% Down .001%, Wanna biscuit 100%, Wanna chewie 50%, get off the bed, when she feels like it. :)
  4. fickla Experienced Member

    While I must preface that I am not involved in the conformation ring, it is my understand that the AKC is more of a filing cabinet than anything else. It is the breed clubs who are responsible for writing their standards and rules, not the AKC itself. This is completely different than in the UK where the Kennel Club does write the standards themselves.

    I agree with you that the split between working and conformation dogs is ridiculous in some breeds. But at the same time I do not blame the AKC but the breeders who breed solely for conformation and nothing else. Ideally, conformation is very important in the breed for giving them the proper structure to do their job, but it is also only one piece of the puzzle. The responsbile breeders I have met don't hold up a championship as the be all to end all and will not breed a dog just because he/she has finished. The responsible breeders look at structure, health, temperament, and yes their working ability.

    I agree that what is being put up in the rings has been completely exageratted, but I don't think it's in the breed standard, it's just what the judges and some breeders prefer. Golden retrievers are becoming way too boney and have too much feathering, but I don't blame the AKC. I blame the parent club and the breeders. But then again, I'm not involved in the conformation ring. I don't think that I have a right to complain about the judging of golden retrievers, border collies, or any other breed if I'm not on the parent club or doing anything to change it.
  5. snooks Experienced Member

    Remember too that many people in the AKC, including my breeder, and involved with it are working to STAMP out genetic disease cause by irresponsible breeding and breed to a appearance, function, temperament standard for which the breed was originally designed. The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel of English and American descent look a little different than one another today and very different from the original breed dating back to before Columbus. They still all die from heart defects/disease.

    I have Goldens and am saddened and maddened to see them die of cancer not because of AKC breeding but b/c of back yard and hobby breeders. Without the AKC there would be no record or standard for OFA (dysplastic hips and elbows, heart defect, corneal defect and even more dogs would be bred that should just be altered. I agree all clubs have breed issues but not all. People that buy mill dogs from pet stores and the internet are just as guilty of propagating bad genetic traits because they want a more wrinkly Shar Pei or a more vicious Pit Bull.

    There are good and bad people involved with each breed in and out of the AKC and its contemporaries worldwide. At least some countries outlaw agony breeding (such as merle to merle) and have some positive effects on breed death. Some genetic diseases have been eliminated from some breeds by the AKC with very regulated (some complain stifling) rules. I am not involved in confirmation either.
  6. desertranger New Member

    The problem is if you breed out the bad some of the good goes with it.
  7. snooks Experienced Member

    Too true sadly.
  8. ruffmuttk9z New Member

    I am sure you could get your dog a PAL number with the AKC very easily. He looks like a border collie to me and I think even the AKC would agree. Not sure what yo're so up in arms about.
  9. jazzycat New Member

    I know nothing about show dogs or the AKC or anything like that, but it seems to me that puppy mills and backyard breeders are the ones causing problems. When I watch dog shows on TV (which is rarely), most of the dogs look really beautiful. Some dogs, no matter what the breed, are just not that smart (kinda like people). OR, maybe they are smart, but they have no interest in learning what you are trying to teach them. Also, I think some dogs might not do well with one trainer, but they will do great with another. You know, that whole "not every technique works the same for everyone" thing. And different people have different energy.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Ya know, DesertRanger, there are several remarks in your post that made me wince...For one, i take issue with your severe criticism of small, lap size dogs, and your sweeping generalization of them as useless.
    I don't pretend to know a lot about dog history, but i do know many of the small breeds were indeed bred for very specific purposes, ie: FEET WARMERS! (actually, that is true! we all take our warm feet for granted nowadays but to the pioneers, it was a serious goal!!!) and killing rats and badgers, small dogs were put in people's beds to bear the brunt of flea bites long ago, etc etc. Many, if not most humans around the world have small homes, and a small dog fits in there just right.

    A small dog can be a very effective alert system. Many people prefer a small dog for many reasons. Many dog lovers cannot accomodate a large dog into their lives. There are actual advantages to a dog being small for many people's lives. HOnestly, as a border collie owner, i do admit, sometimes i feel a lil moment envy of those who can hold their dog in their lap!! My Buddy wants nothing to do with that kinda stuff!!

    You obviously have a preference, and you are certainly welcome to it, i just dislike having a preference crossing over into an outright criticism of another's choice.

    There are many excellently trained small dogs, many right here on our website, please scan through our videos and blow your mind with the talent you will see.

    There are also many large dogs who are brats, trust me, i have one!! Okay, he is reforming now, but he WAS a total brat when i first rescued him. He was, as you say, a LARGE "snarling, yippping dog at the end of leash with no training" Buddy is NOT like that NOW, but he used to be. Through the help i got here on this website, sometimes through PMs, (you know who you are!!) i was able to learn how to help Buddy find another way to be. Buddy is still coming along!!!

    A dog who is misbehaved, the fault lies with an unknowledgable or unwilling guardian, don't blame the dog!!

    Anyway, i felt someone should defend the small dogs of the world. I have a patient, whose small dog is her reason for getting up every day, it is the sunshine of her world, the main reason for most of her smiles in her golden years. That lil "usless" dog, (a mix of all things, hee hee) does more for her sense of well being than any pain pill i can give her.

    This lil ol lady could not handle a border collie, nope! But yet, she too, deserves a canine love in her world, yes? And the loyal lil bundle of fur that adores her back, that lil dog deserves to be loved and treated well, yes?

    At any rate, i think we all ought to respect each other's choices and dogs, and try our best to be kind. There is no weakness in being kind.

    Also, on another point, i have learned so much about the AKC, they almost make me shiver now, with their hand in the continuation of health issues in so many purebreds.
  11. snooks Experienced Member

    Don't forget the ratters that helped stem the spread or plague, kept sanitation in check my killing vermin, kill snakes, alert for bird and small mammal hunting, and how many big dogs would take on a badger head on? These little guys were food bringers, superb alert dogs even for lions and bears, fearless defenders, and don't forget the health benefits of companionship. Not everyone can have/handle/house with condo rules a larger dog. That's why the smaller breed dogs go first at the shelter. People in fragile health cannot afford to be dragged along or afford to feed big dogs. I've always had big dogs but look forward one day to fostering some itsy's and rehabbing them. My one itsy was a CKCS but had a fatal MVD so he went back to mom to be cared for 24/7 in his remaining few months. Journey would have been by first therapy dog and he had a lot of heart despite it's defect.
  12. ozibe Experienced Member

    It all comes back to us as the pet owner.

    Through ignorance we choose to buy a certain breed, whether it is from a responsible breeder, backyard breeder. We choose to get a mixed breed, we choose the way we train good or bad, we choose the way we look after our dogs, how they are treated, what they are fed etc.

    If owners didn't choose a particular breed, mix or standard of breed then those breeders wouldn't have a market to sell their dogs too. How can they make a buck if no one buys.

    It is up to us to choose not to buy. It is up to us to become better educated about dogs, and i think everyone who wants a dog of any age should be educated about caring for a dog, recieve a certificate to show they are competent before being allowed to purchase a dog from a breeder or dogs home. Education and responsibility are the key. Vote with your feet people!
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Snooks and Ozibe, i couldn't agree more!!
  14. desertranger New Member

    No doubt some of you may be offend by what I'm going to say. I offer no apology's.

    My mother raised small terriers as show dogs most of my life along with my dogs. working ranch dogs. They were lap dogs, AKC registered, great for showing as long as they were kept away from people and other dogs. My arms and legs bear the scars from being bitten by them countless of times as I grew up. My dogs couldn't come in the house because they would be attack by mothers dogs. Their aggression was second to none and it finally got to the point where I moved out and stopped visiting my mother because she would neither take the time to desensitize her dogs to others or to train them to be passive and non-aggressive. That extends itself to the many many people who have laptop dogs and treat these poor dogs like children today. Pushed around town in strollers I never know when one is going to decide to jump out of its container and go off the twig. It happens all too often from the the pet shop to the main street. Even people who have them on flexi leads can't seem to keep them in control when they are in public and just let them go snarky without doing anything. They pull, and get excited when other dogs walk by. I've seen them jump on Abby who is totally non-aggressive and then the owner gets into a hissy fit because Abby reacted to a direct confrontation from her untrained dog. Too many of these these small dogs feels it's their right to nip and charge my dogs and too many owners thinks it's just too too cute when their tiny dogs do just that.

    The last dog that bit me was a chihuahua that jumped out of it's owners arms through a car window and attacked me when I was on duty as a ranger at a park gate. All I did was make change to the guys $20. I took 7 stitches with that one. The guys lucky I didn't have his dog taken. However the fine for having a dangerous animal on reservation land compensated for that (that citation was issued by the chief ranger who witnessed the incident).

    One last thing. Jin got snarked really hard in April as a pup. A toy whippet held on a flexi lead jumped out of it's owners control and attacked Jin then Abby then turned on another dog also walking with its owner. Thanks to that incident I now have a dog thats reactive to lap rats and it's proving a difficult trick to train that out. It's a problem I didn't have before.

    If people want lap size dogs then do us all a favor, in fact do a couple of them for everyone concerned.

    Your dogs can't socialize if they're kept in a container or carried in your arms.
    Train them to be polite in public so you're not dragging them down the street.
    You're dogs have feet they can walk for themselves.
    Train them to be civilized in public and stop terrorizing the neighborhood.
    Remember a yorkies bite is just as vicious as a GSDs.
    Realize they are dogs not children and treat them like dogs not children.
    Otherwise keep them home and not in your purse or pram.

    There's a guy in our neighborhood who has an untrained and uncontrollable pit bull. Always pulling on his lead. I at least know what to expect from that dog if it gets loose. It's not like Sally's Shi Tszu that will walk by then suddenly turn and attack with no warning. Lap rats scare me. They are too unpredictable and I have to many scars to remind me about them. So now that's I've had my say about laptop dogs go ahead scream and yell at me. It's unlikely that I'm going to change my mind after living and growing up with such dogs.

    One last thing. Gang members. I see you out there carrying your rats on a string. OMG!, have some pride. You're outlaws not little old ladies. :doglaugh: Big tough guys with tiny little dogs. How pathetic.

    OK now you can flame me. :doglaugh:
  15. jazzycat New Member

    heh. I feel the same way about people having kids.

    We have a little dog (silky terrier) and 3 big dogs (chow, husky, border collie). In the past we also had a yorkie, two muts (terriers) that were small dogs, and a chihuahua when I was about 5. They were all great dogs, and the muts were especially smart. None of them were aggressive.

    desertranger, I feel for you and what happened to you when you were young, but it's not the dog's fault, it's the people who own them (in your case, your mother's). If people don't discipline and train and socialize their animals, you can't really blame the animal. I do agree though that there are many, many (far TOO many) people who have little dogs who DON'T act responsibly with them. Because they are so small, people think it's cute when they attack, or they are afraid they'll hurt them if they use discipline. HELLO! ALL DOGS need discipline, just like all kids need it, and all people.
  16. fickla Experienced Member

    I don't disagree with your latest post on what little dogs CAN be like. But I think that can be true of any dog. It's all about socialization and training which you admit that your mom didn't do, and it's obvious the little dogs you have came in contact haven't had. And yes a lot of times the little dogs don't strike until you walk by or are much closer, they act more unpredictable since they have more to be scared of and are coddled a lot more than a bigger dog.

    But just because I too have met a lot of out of control little dogs doesn't mean that I'm going to write off thousands of dogs just because of size. Hey you might even consider that I have 2 little dogs. I have a pembroke corgi who has his CGC and CD and is working on his CDX by the way, and a 31lb duck tolling retriever who also got his CGC at 8months. My dogs aren't quite lap dogs, but even if I had a very tiny dog I have no doubt in my mind that it would be well trained and socialized because I would put in the effort.

    So while I compltely agree with the points you made about needing to train and socialize a small dog and not just treat them like a furry purse, the same is true of all dogs, regardless of breed, size, and even working ability.
  17. snooks Experienced Member

    i agree same rules for ALL dogs. i just feel sad for u that you blame dogs for their owner's shortcomings. ur logic is flawed. why flame u and feed the fire? if feel sorry for u. hope u find a way to work past ur anger. it's no way to live. as for the guys with poodles or pink shirts or mohawks i admire their confidence. not everyone needs status symbols to be happy they just do what makes them happy. with all my challenges I love life and people and do not feel sorry for myself-i wish u learn the same an easier way than life’s fortunes chose for me. be grateful for what u do have and every day of it. some day it will change. if you see challenges instead of roadblocks life can get better. ur obv pleasure at inflaming people is soo very sad. Maybe no one will reward it but accept u instead.

    why be so with people u don't know? the lack of personal nice accountability just b/c ur on a computer is like aggressive driving and bullying. you've been abused/wronged and it wasn't ur fault but sadly u are completing the cycle. my mom wasn't a princess either but I've decided to be anti-her and not recycle mean spirits. i would rather forgive u and encourage u to learn from others here as you seem to hope they will learn from u. we ALL have much to offer. if not i wish u find what u need b/c it's very obv u do need something and i wish you a rewarding journey to find it. i can extend a welcome and peace to u if u can accept it. to give you what u want would mean my mom wins and demeans me. u also deserve and can ask 4 better 4 urself. start today.
  18. ozibe Experienced Member

    jazzycat is right. It is not the dogs fault.

    Okay some breeds may have certain tendencies more to the fore then others, but through training, routine, discipline, knowledge, responsibility and treating dogs as dogs there shouldn't be problems and we can control or limit certain behaviour.

    It is people like your mother desertranger (sorry) who perpetuate the idea that little dogs are helpless defencless creatures and need mollycoddling. They are dogs, no matter there size. They have same dog desires, tendencies as that large dog down the road.

    Again it comes back to education. Educate people before they are allowed a dog and we may just cut back on all the problem dogs out there, through no fault of their own have they ended up as they are. That education includes those who breed dogs to improve the breed. They should be licensed, and tested every year or x number of years, just like having a drivers license. You aren't supposed to drive without a licence.

    A site like this may well just help the dogs out there, and it is heartening to see so many new people join up, so many people seeking the right kind of help and wanting to further their knowledge.
  19. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Snooks, your post blew me away. Well said.

    DesertRanger, your mom could have benefitted so much from this here website.
  20. snooks Experienced Member

    i'm truly glad tigerlily :doghappy: - ur post is like a smile and i prefer to foster those. also why i have goldens. :dogtongue2: very easy to get them when I say "ur an icky dog" they know it's a cue to put their chins on my knee and give me those topaz eyes. :dogrolleyes:

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