A Small Brag And Some News

Discussion in 'Off-Topic & Chit Chat' started by charmedwolf, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. running_dog Honored Member

    That was what I found... LOL it is hard to explain in our civilized world how a dog can kill something without being "aggressive".

    Could it be that dogs don't dislike prey but they do dislike/fear things they aggress towards?

    But even using "dislike" seems to be humanising the dog behaviour too much? :confused:

  2. charmedwolf Moderator

    My Schutzhund friends are basically the ones that I bounce ideas off of and I can call upon them to act calm when the dogs are trying to look scarey and everybody else is afraid. They figure more obedience training (positive of course) would be able to help me control her so that if, god forbid, she does get loose and there is something I'll be able to call her back.

    And let me clarify what happened with Tre. The only time that Isis was able to see him was when I first let them meet through the porch fence. Her on the porch and him in the yard leading to the nursery. She didn't growl or make any noise but eyes sharpened (It does look like a border collie type thing. That's the only way I could describe it without ever seeing another dog do it in person) got into a stalk position and followed him til she realized she couldn't get him then growled when she tried to get him through the fence. So, it may have been frustration that caused her to growl. I wish I had gotten it on video so ya'll could see.

    Though yesterday, I did hear her growling at the construction workers.Which I've never heard her growl at humans (maybe I always thought it was Jinx growling because usually they're right next together. Jinx does growl though), it's always the stare and crouch. So, I don't think humans for her are prey anymore or if it is an overspill reaction just Jinx like Tigerlily was saying. If that's it even better!

    I'll check out the book Tx. If I have the money in my account I'll buy it today. That way I'll have it for future reference as well. I definitely know what you mean by it being hard to describe.

    Tigerlily- I wasn't able to take the dogs for a walk yesterday. Construction worker almost wouldn't let me go to work never mind be able to get the dogs out and moving. So, I had to do recall games which my room mate down stairs in the basment on one side of the house and myself on the upstairs on the other side. But about 20 minutes of this Jinx was conked out and went to lay in her bed. I played tug with Isis for another 10 minutes before she went and laid on her bed to sleep. I like tired dogs:D. Kratos though still had energy to spare and was trying to get Jinx to play with him. She just gave him a look like "...no!" before going back to sleep. I keep it up and see if there are any improvements. Hopefully, the construction workers won't be back for a while.
  3. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Cwolf, i am so liking the scent of hope i detect in your words, YESsss!!! I think, of all things you will need to help rehab your dogs--------knowledge, patience, persistence, etc etc, i do believe feeling HOPE is important!!! YAY!! I love your emphasis on exercising these dogs, too, that can only help!

    Tre is a human? right? If so, if it was from Isis, it may have been just some spillover excitement or spillover aggression, or even normal dog "Ey! What's this sneaky looking stranger doing right beside my house!!??" kinda thing. Fences can be triggers for some dogs, too, is very weird thing.

    Yes, i really do believe, i really do,
    that you will find rehabbing Jinx to accept unknown dogs, and getting Isis to accept unknown humans will be pretty successful, even though, their living together, does complicate their picture as they can feed off of each other. And i do think you will also successfully be able to reduce both dog's overall aggression, as well, i do have huge hopes for your progress and success.:D:D:D

    and yes, good point, my dog never growls at squirrels, he just chases them.:ROFLMAO: Buddy's approach to a squirrel,
    and what he does to an unknown german shepherd,
    do not even remotely resemble each other.
    His attack on the squirrel, is sometimes begun with a brief silent freeze, a stare and crouch, and then full speed run, never ever growls at the squirrel, never. sometimes, it is an immediate full speed run, and no silent freeze/crouch first.

    his attack on an unknown dog,
    is chockful of so many escalating warnings, it is almost a dance.

    There are multiple warnings, which escalate as he gets nearer and nearer to the unknown dog,
    from crouching, lip lifts, growls, hackles up, hard eyed stares, postures, changes in ears, i hear even changes in their whisker positions and nostrils, but i can't spot those.

    Never, ever ever
    have i ever once ever seen Buddy just spot a dog and silently run at it full speed the way he does for squirrels.

    Most shy dogs also give off some signals, that they are uncomfortable, even if they are not aggressive shy dogs...but, if the shy dog has been repeatedly corrected for growling, it may just bite rather than growl.

    I really agree, prey drive, and what a dog chasing prey looks like,
    and dog-aggression,
    are two different things.

    Yes, recall is a VIP thing to work on, good plan. buddy's recall is awesome, but Buddy and i have settled on, he will freeze for me, but will not turn his back on the unknown dog and RUN to me. But Buddy WILL freeze, and wait for me, and allow me to releash him, and lead him away. Everytime.

    Asking my particular dog, to turn his back on an unknown dog, and run to me, is asking too much for *my* particular dog, and Buddy running, after he has sent his "evil signals" :ROFLMAO: over to the unknown dog,may even ignite a chase from unknown dog and full on attack/fight.

    For a normal dog, it'd probably be fine if they turn their back on an unknown dog and run to their owner, as they have not been crouching and hard staring(or worse) at the other dog first, but, for buddy, not a good idea. I'm happy with his "freeze & wait for mom" thing.

    PLus, Buddy has always HATED having the uknown dog behind him, really bothers him. Now, Buddy and i can follow a dog he dislikes on a walk, but Buddy prefers to be the one in the back, not the other dog.:rolleyes:
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Yes, Cwolf, i can so see how your schutzhound trainer pals, could be great calm ppl for your dogs to work around. and they may know a trainer in the area who specializes in rehabbing aggressive dogs, who knows? Because you *may* have a shy dog, and a DA dog, living side by side, you may want to consider getting a seasoned pro in there to help you get started, cuz you have two dogs with issues, it's more complicated..

    btw, Buddy now LOVES all humans, but once went OFF when he found an unknown human right beside his house looking into a screen window,
    that Buddy did not believe should be there. (Buddy was right, btw)
    It looked way way worse than even his his worst dog reaction, whole lotta flashing teeth and snarling, really frightening display. Buddy's teeth looked 5 inches long at that moment, like a shark or something.

    Was Tre carrying anything? at the time that Isis crouched and watched him, and then growled? Are the construction workers carrying items? That might change how a dog reacts, if he perceives these strangers have "weapons"???:ROFLMAO: Even their activity, if they are hammering, and yelling back and forth to each other, may be confusing to the dog.

    but, it might be a wonderful opportunity for you to do some calming signals and desensitizing work, and a chance for you to elicit and heavily reward any calm behavior from the dogs, as they watch these large noisey strangers making scarey loud noises in their own yard??????

    when we first got Buddy, he used to duck away and crouch somewhat, when we carried anything stick-shaped.
  5. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Re: obedience training, yes, i think that would help,
    i also think just general tricks and cue training would help,
    both YOU and the DOGS!!! :) i don't necessarily think it has to be holding a perfect sit for prolonged periods of time, etc.
    Training these dogs to follow any cue or trick,
    will help.
  6. running_dog Honored Member

    Tigerlily - I think Tre is a dog that Isis wasn't allowed near when he was a puppy because she doesn't seem friendly to smaller creatures.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  7. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    ohhhhhhhhhh. duh. sorry.:rolleyes:
  8. running_dog Honored Member

    Some dogs do confuse dogs with prey so if the growl WAS frustration it could maybe be prey drive :confused: .

    What is really tough for you is that even if you are looking at prey drive not aggression it sounds like Isis is set on chasing everything :rolleyes:.

    BUT I do believe prey drive can be harnessed into working for you. Teaching your dog to be aware of you all the time (it doesn't need to be a formal "look at me") and having reflexive obedience to a few commands is helpful. Desensitisation does work... but sometimes soooooooo slowly. Distraction techniques can work too. High prey drive dogs often love active recall games that involve chasing rewards. Instead of recall now I often squeak a kong tennis ball for Zac then only when he's heading back to me I call him :sneaky: and if possible let him run on into a fetch rather than stopping. I'm also (like Tigerlily suggests) working on a "down" or "wait" that I can use to anchor him if necessary.

    All that said... Zac's recall is still a work in progress... don't get me wrong he's not bad... just he won't yet recall from a chase (or opportunity of one) and only unwillingly (with me sprinting in the opposite direction) from a hot scent. But he has made progress and I'm certain that with you on her side Isis (and Jinx) will too.

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