Targeting Vs Luring

[sara]

I found an article that TOTALLY explains why Mouse cant learn while being lured, but CAN learn when following a target stick! I thought they were basically the same thing, but they're totally not.

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/301

 

[Anneke]

Yes it does make sense, doesn't it? Food is a good motivator, but can also be a big distraction...
Good article!! Gets me thinking too. Not that my dogs don't learn from luring, but I am working on a new trick and I can't get it to work. Now I'm thinking, she might be trying too hard, too focused on the food.
Hmmm, I'm digging up my targetstick, tomorrow...

 

[TiflovesBCs]

when it came to teaching spin luring didn't work for me but hand targeting did. a good read.

 

[Dogster]

Explains a lot.

 

[Tâmara Vaz]

OWW!!
Really informative!!Never had read or tought something about that !!
I always used luring, I don't think a change NOW would help MY dog, but if in future I start train another dog I will remenber that!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

GREAT READ!!
Makes a lot of sense.

Of alll the tricks and cues i've taught Buddy, i think the two i had most trouble with, were
"shake your head no"
and
"cross paws"
Both of these tricks took much longer than it usually takes Buddy to perfectly nail a trick.

both were taught by targetting, and wow, those tricks were hard for *my* dog. (compared to tricks he learned by luring)
but, it could be, those are just harder tricks.
I later taught him a different head-turn trick, "show me your good side" by luring, he got it right away, but, it is a much simpler trick.


But, Buddy can find keychain/pick up the keychain/find his Daddy/, and give keychain to his Daddy on cue,
and
open the fridge, get a beer out of the fridge, and bring that to his Daddy,
both are multiple step tricks, that he got pretty quickly.


I wonder why *my* dog nails tricks so quickly when lured? Guess all dogs are unique! He can learn targets, too, it just takes *my* dog so much longer that way.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Tamara, i think one dog CAN use all various methods.

I do think i use all various methods, luring, shaping, targetting, and capturing, and a few i don't know what category the method would fall under,.

When i hit a road block, doesn't happen too often, but, does happen now and then, i just shelve the entire trick,
wait about 3 or 4 weeks,
RE-introduce it,
and WA-LA, for reasons i can not explain, suddenly, my dog NOW "gets it".

 

[Tâmara Vaz]

"When i hit a road block, doesn't happen too often, but, does happen now and then, i just shelve the entire trick,
wait about 3 or 4 weeks,
RE-introduce it,
and WA-LA, for reasons i can not explain, suddenly, my dog NOW "gets it"."

This happens with me, too!

 

[Tâmara Vaz]

"Tâmara, i think one dog CAN use all various methods."

I'll remember that on next tricks!

 

[charmedwolf]

I've never thought about it that way but it does make sense when I think about the dogs. Kratos is very much a lure dog. He loves it much more than targeting but he will target if that's all I give him. Jinx is a target dog. She never has grasped the concept of following food but will paw target anything. Isis, always the odd one, doesn't care for targeting or luring but leave her alone and she is a master at shaping.

All dogs are definitely different that's for certain!!

 

[Dogster]

Shivon is a luring dog.

 

[tigerlily46514]

It's interesting,
how some dogs can and will still learn and perform the trick,
even when the lure is faded,
and some dogs apparently can't.

When i fade the lure,
despite what this article says,
my dog must have been "thinking about the task", and must have "been engaged in the behavior"
and my dog must have been noticing what positions he IS in, or what behaviors he was led to do,
cuz my dog still does the cue,
even when the lure is faded.
and still does the cue, even for years after the food is gone.....

If my dog was NOT "thinking",
---then-----------when i fade the lure,
he would stop doing the behavior.

but, that doesn't happen that way, at least, not for my dog.

I have noticed a few remarks, here and there, all over DTA, or other sites, like the article here,
which seem to suggest, that a dog trained to follow a post-it paper, or a stick,
is somehow doing more "thinking"
than a dog who is following a treat<---yet still somehow noticing and memorizing what position he IS being led into,
that a lured dog is not "thinking".


If the lured dog "doesn't think" or "only focuses on food"
the dog would not be able to notice what he is doing with his legs, or head, etc etc..

If the lured dog is not "thinking" as the article suggests,
then When the lure is faded,
the dog would not be able to do the trick, cuz the food is gone. Seems like the lured dog WAS thinking after all.

but, it's great there are methods and approaches for all types of dogs. Using different methods also makes training more fun for us humans!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

the hardest part for *my* dog,
is
about a week after he has perfectly performed a trick or cue,
he speeds the whole trick up to warp speed.

Then, i have to do a follow-up lesson,
and insert the word "waaait......waait..."
into the part i want him to slow down again. to let him know, "ey, i want this trick slowed back down again."

some tricks, it does not matter if he does it super fast,
but, some tricks, the speed he moves DOES matter,
and my dog is Mr ZoomZoomZoom.

this "Next Week Speed It Up" thing happens whether i've lured it, shaped it, targetted it, captured it, whatever...........my dog always tries to speed it up .........a week later.

Buddy also embellishes most tricks,
soon as he has finished understanding the trick i want,
he also offers up some extra step of his own, and looks up at me, to see if i like his addition,
sometimes i do, CLICK/TREAT! We now have a unique, different type of trick!
And sometimes i ignore his addition, and then, Buddy just does the trick i wanted.

 

[sara]

See, and Mouse is completely opposite... She CANNOT learn by luring, AT ALL. She goes completely OCD when food is in front of her nose, BUT if she is learning through shaping or targeting, she remembers and uses her brain, BIG TIME! I used to think she wasn't very smart... until I figured out WHY she wasn't learning... goes to show, every dog is different! And the article wasn't using absolutes, I dont believe. Oliver learns just fine with luring, too, though he does well with all three types of training

 

[sara]

See, and Mouse is completely opposite... She CANNOT learn by luring, AT ALL. She goes completely OCD when food is in front of her nose, BUT if she is learning through shaping or targeting, she remembers and uses her brain, BIG TIME! I used to think she wasn't very smart... until I figured out WHY she wasn't learning... goes to show, every dog is different! And the article wasn't using absolutes, I dont believe. Oliver learns just fine with luring, too, though he does well with all three types of training

 

[tigerlily46514]

Maybe it is like we humans, we humans do learn in all different ways,
some of us learn best by reading, or by doing, or by watching, or hearing it,
etc etc.
Makes sense individual dogs may also have different ways of learning. I just object to the hints in the article suggesting that lured dogs "don't think" cuz they do, imo, or else, the dog would stop doing the trick when we fade the lure.

 

[Tâmara Vaz]

Yes!! They DO think!!
If they don't, they wouldn't learn!!

 

[running_dog]

I just object to the hints in the article suggesting that lured dogs "don't think" cuz they do, imo, or else, the dog would stop doing the trick when we fade the lure.

Great thought! You just made me realise there are probably different ways to use luring and one works with Zac and the other doesn't .

The traditional methods of luring did not encourage the dog to think and the reason a dog continued to do the trick once the lure was faded was often more about conditioning a response and muscle memory than thinking. These dogs did have the ability to "think" but often never learned to employ that "thinking" for their owner because they waited to be told what to do. Probably this is what the article refers to.

I think using luring as part of an explanation is different because it does involve "thinking" - the dog knows you are trying to tell it something and it is always trying to work out what you are saying - this kind of lured dog does "think".

I used to use the traditional method of luring (and Zac hated it because it involves a lot of repetition), I hope I now use the second method .

The article does make sense in a lot of respects, for me the clicker was fantastic partly because it created a little distance between the trick and the treat. It opened vistas of possibility (which I mostly used with capturing and shaping). I haven't used targeting much but probably Zac WOULD prefer targeting to luring for the same kind of reason.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Rdog, your post makes a lot of sense, and i've often heard you mention you feel "traditional" luring is not Zac's favorite, so it's great you are so creative, and you can find ways to train him to do so many things anyway!!


The more i think about it,
i think luring is more MY favorite,
than Buddy's, as he is open to anything i try, really. He loves tricks training. Nope, Buddy does not love boring repetition over
and over
and over, nope!!!!!!! I hear you on that one!!
NOt my dog's favorite thing either!! But, moving the lesson to new location, or breaking it up with other stuff, i can get longer lesson out of Buddy by doing things like that. And when all else fails, my dog is total sucker for praise.

but, i guess, i like luring the best, cuz it usually seems 'fastest" for my dog. But i also find shaping and capturing and targetting fun, too!! It makes a nice break in routine to switch it up now and then.

//The traditional methods of luring did not encourage the dog to think and the reason a dog continued to do the trick once the lure was faded was often more about conditioning a response and muscle memory than thinking.//

And a dog trained to follow a piece of paper or a stick,
(instead of following a bit of food).....and getting rewarded when dog is in correct position
or made correct move, from following a stick around,
is not also "conditioning a response"??

The dog is still being 'lured' if he follows a piece of paper that he has been trained to follow, right?
The dog is still being 'lured' if he follows a stick that he always been rewarded for following, right?

 

[tigerlily46514]

I can still usually spot the moment my dog "gets it".
Even if he followed a bit of food to get there, i can almost see the lightbulb moment, "AH HA! mom wants me to do THIS here! ohhhh..."


He is thinking. He is.