No Bad Dogs Only Bad Owners
- Thread starter dylana26
- Start date
southerngirl
Honored Member
Yes, dog training is amazing.
I must say I don't agree with that saying. Just because a dog misbehaves doesn't mean that the owner is bad. My dog Missy is reactive toward other dogs(not aggressive), but it I'm not a bad owner. I'm working with her and she's getting better.
I must say I don't agree with that saying. Just because a dog misbehaves doesn't mean that the owner is bad. My dog Missy is reactive toward other dogs(not aggressive), but it I'm not a bad owner. I'm working with her and she's getting better.
Dice Smith
Well-Known Member
I agree with you 100% southerngirl
I do believe that there are tons of dogs who have issues caused by their owners like sadly, the case with so many pit bulls 
But Kodi has aggression issues and I don't think I'm a bad owner. His issues have been caused by my neighbors loose dogs that aren't always properly cared for. And I work with him everyday to get past them. I'm so proud because we have come so far. That saying only applies to certain people and cases. 
I agree with you dylana 26. What kind of dog do you have? And please post some pics!!!
Dogster
Honored Member
I also agree. There are dogs that have problems caused by their owners (owners who abuse dogs, for example) but, there are many owners, like Dice and southerngirl that are trying their best to fix their dogs problems, they didn't cause their dog's problems. Shivon has some feaar issues that I don't believe were caused by me. And I don't think it's a good idea to label a shy or agressive dog "bad" because all dogs are good dogs.
Dice Smith
Well-Known Member
Perfectly said Dogster!!!I also agree. There are dogs that have problems caused by their owners (owners who abuse dogs, for example) but, there are many owners, like Dice and southerngirl that are trying their best to fix their dogs problems, they didn't cause their dog's problems. Shivon has some feaar issues that I don't believe were caused by me. And I don't think it's a good idea to label a shy or agressive dog "bad" because all dogs are good dogs.
Tâmara Vaz
Experienced Member
Yeah ! Go dog training!
But I don't agree with that saying, too...
My dog has fear issues since she was a puppy, they weren't caused by me...
I've been working on this for long and now things are getting better!
But I don't agree with that saying, too...
My dog has fear issues since she was a puppy, they weren't caused by me...
I've been working on this for long and now things are getting better!
MaryK
Honored Member
I agree entirely with everything that has been said. However, on occasions I have used the expression "no bad dogs only bad owners' PURELY to get the point across to some VERY stubborn people who blame the dogs entirely, instead of looking at the issues, i.e. Shivon has some fear issues but Dogsters is working through those with her using Positive Reinforcement.
At present there is a bit of a hue and cry here, as a little dog was attacked and because of it's injuries, had to be put to sleep. Now, as per usual with Governments, there is a knee jerk reaction with all manner 'new rules and regulations' being bandied around. One of which is that ALL pet dogs MUST be de-sexed to stop the issue of Dog Aggression. Dog Aggression is not only caused by entire dogs, many already neutered dogs can be Dog Aggressive.
My personal feelings are that money would be better spent educating people on training their dogs using Positive Reinforcement. That dog's are not trying to dominate etc. etc., rather than arbitrarily pass laws stating that ALL pet dogs MUST be desexed. Not that I am against desexing but I am against making it compulsory.
So to attempt to 'get it through the thick heads of politicians', I have used that expression.
But I agree, all cases should be taken on their merit, there isn't a 'one size fits all' rule of the thumb.
At present there is a bit of a hue and cry here, as a little dog was attacked and because of it's injuries, had to be put to sleep. Now, as per usual with Governments, there is a knee jerk reaction with all manner 'new rules and regulations' being bandied around. One of which is that ALL pet dogs MUST be de-sexed to stop the issue of Dog Aggression. Dog Aggression is not only caused by entire dogs, many already neutered dogs can be Dog Aggressive.
My personal feelings are that money would be better spent educating people on training their dogs using Positive Reinforcement. That dog's are not trying to dominate etc. etc., rather than arbitrarily pass laws stating that ALL pet dogs MUST be desexed. Not that I am against desexing but I am against making it compulsory.
So to attempt to 'get it through the thick heads of politicians', I have used that expression.
But I agree, all cases should be taken on their merit, there isn't a 'one size fits all' rule of the thumb.
MaryK
Honored Member
You're lucky Dogster. Before moving to where I am currently staying, I too mixed with people who worked on resolving issues. But now different story.Yes, if the owner isn't doing anything to help the problem, or making it worse, than I would call him/her a bad owner. But most of the people I've met work on fixing their dogs' issues.
Unfortunately around this area there are a few too many dogs who's owners either don't care, or don't know 'how to'. Like the owner of the dog who attacked Ra Kismet - all she did was say 'so bleep what' and other such expressions. And the second type, the young girl who owns the dog who bit me the other day when I was visiting, this dog does that all the time if you're not quick on your feet. She just thinks 'that's Lucky guarding the house/people'. Saw her grandmother again to day when walking Zeus. Showed her the clicker, offered to help and all I got was a shrug of the shoulders. Oh that's just Lucky - sure and that was just my leg!
I even said, very nicely and politely, after showing her the bruise and broken skin on my leg, that I wasn't offended and not going to report or anything nasty. But if that happen to someone who was of the reporting mind frame, Lucky would be in deep trouble. Shrug of shoulders was the only reply.
Seems in this area to be more the normal thing for people to not care. Out walking see dogs being 'yanked on slip collars' have never seen a clicker or a treat being offered. It is the worst area/place I have ever lived for seeing incorrectly, or not correctly, trained dogs.
Or maybe a lot went to the dreadful school I took Ra Kismet too, where the woman yanked a terrified little one across the ring and they all thought it just so funny.
That's why I've been using the expression 'no bad dogs only bad owners' in the hopes of waking up not only the politicians but the dog owners as well.
jackienmutts
Honored Member
Mary, I feel so badly for you, it must be so hard seeing and encountering what you do daily, and not being able to do a darn thing. I suppose what you can do is to keep working with yours as you do, keeping in mind you just never know who's watching. If even one person sees you working with Rakins and asks "how-to", then you've accompolished a lot - because you know you've made an impact, as that too will spread by that one person. Education isn't always fast, but every little bit helps.
As for the saying itself - I agree and disagree with it. I totally understand what everyone is saying. It always depends on who I'm talking to. When I'm talking to other dog people (like on this forum who understand way more than the average 'joe'), then of course, I don't blame owners or dogs -- cuz things happen, we work thru them, and it's life. But just on any ordinary day when a dog chews a shoe (why was it left out?) and then the dog becomes a "bad dog" and is punished, or the dog was left in the house all day and the owners came hom to a mess .. or maybe were home but never paid any attention to the dog saying "I need to go outside" so the dog just went in the corner, and again - bad dog!! -- I gotta go with the saying and agree ... there are not bad dogs, only bad owners. It all depends on who you're talking to, and how you look at it. I do tend to use that saying myself ... all in defense of dogs (and pointing the blame back at lazy people).
As for the saying itself - I agree and disagree with it. I totally understand what everyone is saying. It always depends on who I'm talking to. When I'm talking to other dog people (like on this forum who understand way more than the average 'joe'), then of course, I don't blame owners or dogs -- cuz things happen, we work thru them, and it's life. But just on any ordinary day when a dog chews a shoe (why was it left out?) and then the dog becomes a "bad dog" and is punished, or the dog was left in the house all day and the owners came hom to a mess .. or maybe were home but never paid any attention to the dog saying "I need to go outside" so the dog just went in the corner, and again - bad dog!! -- I gotta go with the saying and agree ... there are not bad dogs, only bad owners. It all depends on who you're talking to, and how you look at it. I do tend to use that saying myself ... all in defense of dogs (and pointing the blame back at lazy people).
MaryK
Honored Member
Thank you Jackie it is tough and I'm not saying it's everywhere in this city, but around here, bad! Still so far behind that one person actually told me she 'rubbed her puppies nose in his poo' - I was speechless for a moment, I didn't think anyone would do that
. Won't go into details but I did ask her if she would rub a babies nose in its diaper. Her rational was, 'it was what her mother had done', yes right this is the 21st C not the 19thC! Tried staying 'civilized' not easy with that type of person.
That's what I keep hoping for Jackie, that someone somewhere along the line will notice Rakins and ask about his training. You're right, one person asks and takes notice, then tells another. Power of leverage. On the plus side, I have noticed people looking a bit more at Rakins and what I'm doing when we're walking along. They can obviously see the treat bag, Rakins getting treats, hear the good boys and maybe the clicker and they can see I would think, that now the little chap just looks up at me for a treat, no pulling or carrying on, when he hears a dog bark. Plus he looks so happy (well he is happy) tail wagging, tongue hanging out panting, 'silly grin' on his face, all in all one VERY happy dog! His only 'reaction' now to dogs barking maybe a turn of the head then it's look at me. And this has been with dogs visible, barking but behind fences and also other side of the road. Little dog taking its owner for a walk, pulling like mad, and Rakins just looked over then straight back at me. And I am certain those two women saw how I handled Rakins with the click treat. And ALL on loose lead!!!!!!!!
And he DOES make people look, he's just too cute to resist. He'll become an ambassador for Positive Reinforcement Training in this area, especially when he completely ignores dogs all round My dream I guess *sigh* Rakins changes attitude to dog training! Oh and soccer balls, people playing with one in their front garden, took Rakins attention much more than a few dogs barking behind their fences. So cute and so funny but hey I was thrilled with his reaction, or rather non-reaction
I am not being biased but watching other dogs body language around here, I have to say Rakins is the happiest when out on his walk. The other dogs are either pulling like mad, or just plain bored looking.
Still so far behind that one person actually told me she 'rubbed her puppies nose in his poo' - I was speechless for a moment, I didn't think anyone would do that . Won't go into details but I did ask her if she would rub a babies nose in its diaper. Her rational was, 'it was what her mother had done', yes right this is the 21st C not the 19thC! Tried staying 'civilized' not easy with that type of person.That's what I keep hoping for Jackie, that someone somewhere along the line will notice Rakins and ask about his training. You're right, one person asks and takes notice, then tells another. Power of leverage. On the plus side, I have noticed people looking a bit more at Rakins and what I'm doing when we're walking along. They can obviously see the treat bag, Rakins getting treats, hear the good boys and maybe the clicker and they can see I would think, that now the little chap just looks up at me for a treat, no pulling or carrying on, when he hears a dog bark. Plus he looks so happy (well he is happy) tail wagging, tongue hanging out panting, 'silly grin' on his face, all in all one VERY happy dog! His only 'reaction' now to dogs barking maybe a turn of the head then it's look at me
. And this has been with dogs visible, barking but behind fences and also other side of the road. Little dog taking its owner for a walk, pulling like mad, and Rakins just looked over then straight back at me. And I am certain those two women saw how I handled Rakins with the click treat. And ALL on loose lead!!!!!!!!And he DOES make people look, he's just too cute to resist. He'll become an ambassador for Positive Reinforcement Training in this area, especially when he completely ignores dogs all round
My dream I guess *sigh* Rakins changes attitude to dog training! Oh and soccer balls, people playing with one in their front garden, took Rakins attention much more than a few dogs barking behind their fences. So cute and so funny but hey I was thrilled with his reaction, or rather non-reactionI am not being biased but watching other dogs body language around here, I have to say Rakins is the happiest when out on his walk. The other dogs are either pulling like mad, or just plain bored looking.
MaryK
Honored Member
I am exactly the same Jackie, depends on who I am talking to. You've said it all
648117
Honored Member
When people see how well behaved Holly is they nearly always say they should take their dog to a training class .
I always recommend the one I go to but I can pretty much guarantee that they do not even look the trainer up. They sure never ask me any follow up questions like how much it costs, what method is used, what sort of stuff we learn....
I really think that a lot of people think they should have a better behaved dog when they see a well behaved one in front of them but then they put it in the "too hard" basket before they even get home.
If people even looked up dog trainers on the internet they would probably also find training sites (like this one) so they could teach their dog even if they could not attend a class. But a lot of people just don't.
One time at the dog park a lady was trying to get her puppy back and Holly did a perfect demonstration of recall right in front of her and got a treat. I told the lady that it's a good idea to take treats out on walks etc to help with teaching recall and other stuff and she said "I never had to use treats with my last dog", then managed to catch the puppy and walked off
.
Another time at the dog park some one said they were thinking of getting a shock collar to stop their dog barking at the fence and playing too rough with other dogs (the dog is really not suitable for dog parks, the dog has some serious issues) and to help with some other issues. So I explained that the dog will associate the shock with other dogs etc and could become even worse, the owner actually listened and said she will not get a shock collar anymore
You win some, you lose some.
But it is frustrating when you know the solution to some problems is so simple if the owner just listened.
.I always recommend the one I go to but I can pretty much guarantee that they do not even look the trainer up. They sure never ask me any follow up questions like how much it costs, what method is used, what sort of stuff we learn....
I really think that a lot of people think they should have a better behaved dog when they see a well behaved one in front of them but then they put it in the "too hard" basket before they even get home.
If people even looked up dog trainers on the internet they would probably also find training sites (like this one) so they could teach their dog even if they could not attend a class. But a lot of people just don't.
One time at the dog park a lady was trying to get her puppy back and Holly did a perfect demonstration of recall right in front of her and got a treat. I told the lady that it's a good idea to take treats out on walks etc to help with teaching recall and other stuff and she said "I never had to use treats with my last dog", then managed to catch the puppy and walked off
.Another time at the dog park some one said they were thinking of getting a shock collar to stop their dog barking at the fence and playing too rough with other dogs (the dog is really not suitable for dog parks, the dog has some serious issues) and to help with some other issues. So I explained that the dog will associate the shock with other dogs etc and could become even worse, the owner actually listened and said she will not get a shock collar anymore
You win some, you lose some.
But it is frustrating when you know the solution to some problems is so simple if the owner just listened.
MaryK
Honored Member
I agree. I constantly hear 'not enough time', well if you haven't enough time to train a dog, the answer is simple, DO NOT GET A DOG!! Get a cat, or a rabbit or a bird, they do not attack people or dogs in the street.
It is very frustrating that's for sure and again on the news tonight, I didn't watch it, just heard the promo, two more little dogs attacked by a larger dog. This makes it doubly frustrating because these problem (a) would arise less if people took the trouble to educate their dogs properly and (b) instead of the usual knee jerk reaction by councils and government bodies, they put in place a constructive advertising campaign focused on the benefits of Positive Reinforcement dog training.
At present all that is being bandied around is that it will be mandatory for all pet dogs to be neutered. Whilst I am not against neutering at all, this does not always resolve the issues.
Neither have any figures, to my knowledge, been produced to show that the dog attacks have been committed by entire dogs.
Further the only financial assistance available regarding the cost of desexing is only for those on a pension, and whilst I applaud this, there will be many low income families who, while being able to afford the cost of keeping a dog, may not be able to afford the added cost of having their animal neutered. Although now of course, all dogs coming from shelters are automatically desexed, there are still far too many 'back yard breeders' who do not bother to neuter the puppies.
The 'two dog limit' was brought in as a means to stop back yard breeding but, sadly, has failed totally. Just recently I saw advertised "in a block of flats" a sign saying puppies for sale. As the only 'grounds' where the car parks, I fail to see how anyone could legitimately breed dogs. It was a knee jerk reaction by councils and governments, which like all knee jerk reaction laws passed to pacify the public, ill thought out and doomed to failure.
The only incentive to get any form of dog training is at present a reduction in dog licenses for dogs which are (a) neutered, costs about half the amount and (b) a further reduction if a certificate saying the dog has attended and passed obedience training. The type of school/training appears to be irrelevant.
The latter falls short as so far I have not been able to locate a Positive Reinforcement School in this or immediate areas. There is one about half an hour by car. This makes it very hard for anyone without a car or who doesn't drive. Especially as the law here does not permit dogs on public transport.
And as everyone on this Forum knows, the old style dominance method is not successful and more likly to cause problems rather than avoid them in the first place or rehabilitate dogs with issues in the second.
It is only by education, as with the smoking bans and laws, that maybe governments and councils can really make a difference to these sad cases of dog attacks. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening in the immediate future.
Sorry for the rant but it does make me angry and sad to see what is apparently an escalation of dog attacks and nothing positive being done to remedy the situation. I am going to write a letter to the newspapers to this fact.
It is very frustrating that's for sure and again on the news tonight, I didn't watch it, just heard the promo, two more little dogs attacked by a larger dog. This makes it doubly frustrating because these problem (a) would arise less if people took the trouble to educate their dogs properly and (b) instead of the usual knee jerk reaction by councils and government bodies, they put in place a constructive advertising campaign focused on the benefits of Positive Reinforcement dog training.
At present all that is being bandied around is that it will be mandatory for all pet dogs to be neutered. Whilst I am not against neutering at all, this does not always resolve the issues.
Neither have any figures, to my knowledge, been produced to show that the dog attacks have been committed by entire dogs.
Further the only financial assistance available regarding the cost of desexing is only for those on a pension, and whilst I applaud this, there will be many low income families who, while being able to afford the cost of keeping a dog, may not be able to afford the added cost of having their animal neutered. Although now of course, all dogs coming from shelters are automatically desexed, there are still far too many 'back yard breeders' who do not bother to neuter the puppies.
The 'two dog limit' was brought in as a means to stop back yard breeding but, sadly, has failed totally. Just recently I saw advertised "in a block of flats" a sign saying puppies for sale. As the only 'grounds' where the car parks, I fail to see how anyone could legitimately breed dogs. It was a knee jerk reaction by councils and governments, which like all knee jerk reaction laws passed to pacify the public, ill thought out and doomed to failure.
The only incentive to get any form of dog training is at present a reduction in dog licenses for dogs which are (a) neutered, costs about half the amount and (b) a further reduction if a certificate saying the dog has attended and passed obedience training. The type of school/training appears to be irrelevant.
The latter falls short as so far I have not been able to locate a Positive Reinforcement School in this or immediate areas. There is one about half an hour by car. This makes it very hard for anyone without a car or who doesn't drive. Especially as the law here does not permit dogs on public transport.
And as everyone on this Forum knows, the old style dominance method is not successful and more likly to cause problems rather than avoid them in the first place or rehabilitate dogs with issues in the second.
It is only by education, as with the smoking bans and laws, that maybe governments and councils can really make a difference to these sad cases of dog attacks. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening in the immediate future.
Sorry for the rant but it does make me angry and sad to see what is apparently an escalation of dog attacks and nothing positive being done to remedy the situation. I am going to write a letter to the newspapers to this fact.