What's up with Labradoodles? Is it a Roll of the Dice?

I'm training a very smart 8 month old Labradoodle to be a Service Dog, but he seems not to meet any but the most basic of the 'breed standards'--- he's got a fantastic temperament, and learns new behaviors as fast as I can come up with them-- but he doesn't LOOK like a doodle.:doghuh: He looks like a fluffy Flat Coated Retriever; solid black, short, 'Lab-type' coat on his face, head, and lower legs, medium length, straight coat on chest, belly, and upper legs, and big, fluffy, curly, long-ish coat down his topline. That's a link to one of my groups, so there are other dogs pictured there, but you'll KNOW Jet when you see him!:dogrolleyes:

My question is, however: Just what can one expect from a hybrid breed? Jet is an LO2, meaning that his parents were both doodles, but his grandparents were Labs and Poodles... I think.
Is it normal to have this great a variation in a breed that comes from two such well-established breeds? (Most doodles that I've seen are very scruffy-looking all over).

This is, forgive me for saying, the price you pay for selecting a breed that is still very much a "work in progress". There is a reason that the Labradoodle isn't recognised as a pure-bred dog, (and thus isn't recognised by the KC), and that is because the pups give such inconsistent behaviour and appearance results.

Labradoodle FAQ

Well, the ones that I've worked with have had a fairly consistent temperaments, just goofy retriever stuff, but the range in appearance is what I was thinking about. I did some research on the coat types and was surprised.
http://www.sunsethills.biz/australian_labradoodle_coat_types.shtml

Thank you for bringing this up, I have wondered about the same thing myself. I have a blk and wt Portuguese Water Dog with a wavy coat. People are always asking if she's a doodle-dog. She is actually much shorter than the doodles I've seen. I feel like wearing a shirt that says something like, "No, it's not a doodle, it's a PWD.

That's kind of weird that Jet's coat is like that.... the curly/harsh Poodle coat should be dominant over other genes, so a doodle to another doodle should have even curlier/wirey hair - more Lab/Golden/whatever needs to be added to future generations to get anything near a consistent coat texture... meaning the ratio of each breed can't stay the same, meaning they can never be recognized as purebred. This seems to be true for any/all of the Poodle mixes.

The guide dog people in Australia who originally decided to cross the breeds realized that what they were getting wasn't better than either breed by itself, and there was too much inconsistency in looks (and therefore maintenance), and temperaments. They decided the idea didn't work, and stopped doing it so heavily... but not before backyard breeders and puppy mills heard that Labradoodles were the perfect guide dog, and therfore the perfect pet dog, and they became a designer breed
What also strikes me as weird is that guide dogs and service dogs need to have a very different temperament... guide dogs generally have higher drive, initiative, intelligent disobedience - they are in charge. Service dogs should be soft and mellow, fading into the background until they are working... having a dog that takes initiative or has any strong drives can become fatal to someone who is paralyzed or has weak balance, or can only whisper commands.

Since I love Poodles so much as they are, I am certainly biased, lol. I also really like Labs, Goldens, Cockers, etc even though they aren't breeds that I feel would be right for me to own long term. I have met a couple of nice doodles, but most of them have been off the wall hyper and some have been aggressive (granted many of the ones I've met were impulse purchases by people who wanted in on this new fad, so obviously the dogs were not raised in ways that may have helped bring out a nicer temperament). But the ones I've met are nothing like Poodles, and nothing like Labs/Goldens/etc --- so who doesn't like the temperaments of the purebreds enough to get a Poodle or Golden, but instead decides to get a mix of both breeds? :msniwonder:

Obviously Jet's coat isn't as high maintenance as a Poodle's but he seems to be an exception rather than the norm... a Poodle with a correct coat doesn't mat quickly, and some lines the hair grows very slowly (I know a Standard who's owner has been trying to grow a show coat for over 3 years and the longest part is only about 5"... this is using supplements, lot's of banding/wrapping, keeping it clean, and tipping the ends!). Most of the doodles I've met require more grooming up-keep than Poodles, and they look strange if you shave their face and feet, so food and mud is always getting stuck, making them really stink...

On top of all of that, their risk for inherited diseases expands to include both breeds. The recessive traits won't show up in the first generation, but they can appear in the second, third, fourth. Unfortunately, many of the doodles are bred for money, so $$$ isn't spent on testing the parents, and often the parents are from breeders who also don't really care, otherwise they'd have screened buyers more thoroughly.
'Hybrid vigor' is something that occurs when parents are from different species - all dogs are the same species, just different breeds. Dog to wolf/coyote/jackal, or lion/tiger, or horse/donkey are hybrids. There is also usually a price to pay... some hybrids may be stronger and bigger, but have much shorter lives. Others live longer but may be very hard to train/control. Most are infertile...
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/NoPup...Designer_Mutts/Hybrid_Vigor/hybrid_vigor.html


Ultimately, I have nothing against the dogs themselves (unless they have individually earned it through displaying an inappropriate temperament), but rather the people who breed them for money or just because "they are such nice dogs"... enough shelter dogs (including many doodles! :msncry: ) are put to sleep every week that I have trouble appreciating any breedings that aren't done with a specific purpose intended for each litter. IMO, 'bettering the breed' isn't good enough by itself.

Agree with CollieMan...we get alot of Labradoodles through work (pet groomer) and some are crazy and the most frustrating dogs to do anything with but yet a few are lovely, calm dogs who are a joy to handle. You just never know!

I just have to break in here - there is a MASSIVE difference between the Australian Labradoodle and American Labradoodle.

The original creator of the (Australian) Labradoodle used Labradors, Poodles... and other breeds in his mix to produce a dog that would work consistently for customers with allergies.As a whole the examples I've seen of Australian Labradoodles (all but one were imported directly from Australia) were very fixed in conformation, temperament and coat type. They were truly curly coated, and had no shedding that I could see.

The American bred version is typically F1- F2 or occasionally F3. The range in temperament, hair type and size is staggering! Many of them shed a small amount, too.

To the OP - I don't consider this a "breed" by any means ... being a well established breed (sadly) has nothing to do with the outcome of the cross.

IMO a Labradoodle is a mutt like any other two breeds bred together, it is not recognised as a breed in and of itself. Same goes for goldendoodles and cockapoos. It became a 'designer' dog and now they are everywhere. There is nothing wrong with mutts! The only thing wrong with the whole picture is the BYBs who market their dogs as 'purebred labradoodles" etc.

An interesting article on the guy who invented the Labradoodle, and how he regrets it:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...27063591_1_labradoodle-allergy-free-guide-dog

But, of course, both Labs and Poodles are extremely smart, so I imagine Labradoodles would be equally as smart?

(ps: the original picture won't load for me)

Even before they became fashionable I preferred mixed breeds. But today it's important to have a fancy name.

20 years ago we got a Doberman/Rottweiler mix - this was a fantastic dog. She looked more like a Rottie, but slimer than the pure breed Rottweiler. Luckily she also had all the best traits of both breeds.
The other one was a Labrador/Doberman mix. He was cheeky as anything.
And the third of our big dog family was a pure Rhodesian Ridgeback - oh my god, this dog was so stupid. EVERY morning he tripped down the 3 steps at the front door and when he barked inside he got so excited that he forgot that there was a wall at the end of the window. All legs, no brain we used to say

Nowadays if I meet a dog in the park I just ask "What kind of a doodle is this"

Well from my pic you can tell we have a doodle at this time. Harley is a Goldendoodle and we have found him to be a very quick learner in all commands except struggle with his hyperness when greating new people. He is still a puppy and is a work in progress. All my past dogs have been purebred dogs (GSD, Beagle, St. Bernard), but decided on this cross due to daughter having Asthma and I have allergies. Our first choice was a Portuguese Water dog then an Australian Labradoodle (completely agree with Liz) but pricing put these dogs out of our reach. Unfortunately, the popularity of these "mutts" have created a lot of greed and the buyer must be extremely on guard as to what they are getting and who they are buying from.

I'd guess that as with lurchers (basically a historic hybrid) the benefits of a Labrador poodle cross can be best predicted in the first cross, and after that (unless the breeding is specifically to fix "good" traits by back crossing as in the Australian Labradoodles) the F2 is basically a mongrel and you lose many of the benefits and predictability of hybridisation. Any recessive genes may be expressed in the offspring (allergy plus).

Lurcher breeders/owners have thrashed out the hybrid versus mongrel argument for years before designer dogs became popular. For example in the UK, F1 Bedlington terrier X whippets and Bedlington/whippet X whippets are popular and hunters pay a premium for them, Bedlington/whippet X Bedlington/whippet are bought more cheaply as they may express the recessive hereditary condition of copper toxicosis from the Bedlington terrier.

Why get a mutt at all. Why not just get a std. poodle. They are very smart, definitely nonshedding, and an all around nice dog? I just don't get the point of making mutts on purpose. I guess you can say it's one of my pet peeves. I have nothing against mutts, I've had my share, but none of them were on purpose or bought!

Love it love it love it !

Look at my neighbour... she has a female Maltese Poodle and when I brought home Smokey (Cavalier King Charles x Poodle) she said we should make them breed. Just like that .. not knowing anything about the background of those dogs. That's the typical scenario of disaster about to happen. Those cute looking pups would have ended up at some home with kids - once pup turns a year old nobody would be interested in the dog any more and the dogs would have ended up at the pound - just like their mother will be in 6 months time.
Their dog is 6 months old, like mine. She hasn't been for a walk EVER. Is not allowed in the house and has now resorted to barking in the evenings. Nobody could be bothered with training her.
I give the dog another 6 months - by that time puppy will have ruined the backyard out of boredom, will be barking constantly and eventually get a smack for that. Anyone looking for a fear driven, untrained and unsocialised Maltese in 6 months time, let me know ...

BUT they would have happily run along with a plan to produce puppies <GROAN>

............ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffttt............. sorry, let of some steam here

im afraid i have to disagree with that, the f1 of lurchers produces alot of 'litter wastage' . This is due to the genetics of dogs and shape difference. some breeds such as beddy/whippets its not so obvious due to the good shape of the bedlington and the only thing that would possibly be considered waist being a dog under say 17tts. however other breeds such as colliex and bullxs the wastage is obvious almost from birth as a dog to heavy or to light would be classed as wastage. however if you get a two f1s of a good racey shape and breed them together the wastage is dramatically increased to the point where it is nye on nil.

this is the same with labradoodles, the 2 original breeds are drastically different there can be alot of litter wastage but should you breed two f1s together that are of what you require the genes they pass on will be further away from either original.

as far as hybridisation is concerned, alot of dogs are referred to as hybrids but unfortunately true hybrids are produced from crossing two different species and are sterile.

johnny

"Hybrid" can be used in genetic and livestock breeding terms to simply mean the offspring of an outcross of different varieties (genetically dissimilar parents) not just as a species cross.

It depends on how you measure the benefits, my comment was dealing primarily with the predictability aspect. I used the specific example of Bedlington/whippets as they have demonstrable benefits in the F1 and potential drawbacks in the F2 caused by simple dominant/recessive expression of genes

Traits controlled additively by multiple genes at multiple sites on the chromosomes (height for instance) are fairly predictable by just looking at the appearance of a dog and you don't need to worry about whether the dog is F1 or F2 or bitza . However the F1 is more predictable when we are looking at traits controlled by a few specific genes which have dominant and recessive alleles.

For Example:

If you breed two F1 labradoodles together the offspring may carry any combination of genes from the original breeds... So suppose a labrador carries the alleles that we designate "cc" and a poodle carries "CC" if you cross the two dogs the F1 will get one allele from each making all the pups carry the gene as "Cc". For the sake of argument the "C" allele might as well be dominant, so all the pups express the poodle gene but they all carry the labrador gene as well.

if you cross two of the F1 labradoodles the pups may get the "C" or the "c" allele from either parent. So this gene in any one of the offspring may be CC, Cc, or cc (in the probability ratio of 1:2:1). This means that for this gene a few of the offspring may express the labrador gene although neither of the parents expressed it.

Have you ever seen many bulXgreys running dog? Even though they are a cross breed they breed true to type be it halfX, 3/4 1/4 (both straight and reverse) and the same for 5/8 3/8.