Using The "ah" Sound To Pinpoint When Dog Has Gotten Up Without Permission... Your Thoughts?

It depends on the association your dog has made with humans and dogs. I know a dog that goes barking mad when he sees a poodle because he was bit by one when he was little. But, natively, they aren't supposed to make such a difference.

Umm well I know people who treat their dogs like humans and basically the dog treats them like dogs however in my experience if you treat your dog as a dog then it will treat you as a human.

LOL my dog can recognise species no problem, he knows that frogs jump, he knows that hedghogs don't run they prickle, he knows that rabbits run, he knows that sheep are different to deer, cats are different to squirrels, a NEW species is fascinating to him. I don't see why he can't figure out that humans are different to dogs and relate to them in an entirely different way to other dogs. My dog also recognises not breeds of dogs but shapes. He loves any other dogs with long legs because they run fast. He is interested in poodles of any size because his best buddy is a standard poodle.

lol, i'd also written a reply to some of the remarks on this thread, and then hesitated to disagree, but, since it is being discussed, here's my two cents, as well. We all can see things a lil differently now and then.
//"While I don't agree with Cesar Millan, Dogs do imprinting like every other animal, including humans. Humans raised by wild animals imprint on those animals. I fight against imprinting every time I get a baby bird. They imprint easily and you can't let them go if they do. Same goes for dogs. They are constantly surrounded and cared by people when they are young, so they imprint on humans. I'm pretty sure they just see us like a different "breed", they don't handle the "species" concept."//


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I so share your dislike of Caesar's methods. I liked much of what you said, but i do slightly disagree with a few of your remarks.
Birds who imprint on humans can be released to the wild. This is done often by bird rescue orgs, who raise up baby birds and set them free.


I think if you stuck a puppy into a litter of kittens or geese, he'd still grow up to be a full fledged dog, although, there's a great chance, he'd tolerate the presence of cats or geese, very very well....but, he'd still be a DOG in every way.


A fit, hand-raised dog who is of a breed of natural shape and ability, could be set free in the wild to fend for himself in an area where there IS a suitable climate and sufficient prey for him to hunt. (some breeds, who have been bred to have very extreme and sometimes disabling mutations, would not be able to hunt or survive on their own).

Dogs are drawn to humans, even if they've never seen one before. (not counting abnormal dogs, like the extremely shy dogs, and some breeds who have concentrated a more reserved nature into that breed)The reason dogs are drawn are to humans is 50,000+ years of evolutionary development and, in more recent centuries, selective breeding.

mDNA suggests dogs broke away from wolves as long ago as 100,000 years ago.

Dogs are descended from wolves, and for 50,000+ years, have evolved alongside of humans. Dogs have puppy like traits compared their wolf ancestors, and adult dogs do things that wolves only do as puppies, (like barking for example.)
It is unclear whether the humans lured over/fed wolves who had puppy like traits/no fear of humans, or, more likely, that wolves who were unafraid of humans hung around campfires for scraps, but how exactly dogs began to evolve away from the wolves and develop a co-existance with humans is not 100% known. But it was a mutually beneficial relationship for both species.
There are other co-existent mutual species cohabitations throughout the animal kingdom, as well.


Evolution can occasionally happen quite rapidly, (with germs, it can happen within hours of being exposed to an antibiotic)
--------> when there is a CHANGE in the lifestyle, environment, diet or prey, or predators/threats around a creature. (evolution almost never happens without a gradual change in one or more of those factors) Living beside humans, and the accompanying diet and total lifestyle change, may have helped pushed along the change in these wolves, as well as mating with other wolves who were also not afraid of humans, to further concentrate and propagate that trait in successive generations..
.
Amazingly, most breeds of dogs, if returned to the wild, within a surprisingly few generations, begin to assume a more dingo-like shape than the extremes we humans have mutated them into. The human-caused extremes in some dog breeds soften out and ultimately disappear in the wild.
Domesticated pigs re-assume more boar-like features within mere generations of being re-introduced to the wilderness.


.//" They handle "this is a prey" and "this could kill me" and "this is my kind", but I doubt they make a difference unless it's needed for survival."//



My dog does not need to hunt to survive, yet, he has a strong prey drive, and often kills local wildlife that he can catch, bunnies, gophers, squirrels, moles, small raccoons, hedgehogs, chipmunks, etc etc., although it is "not needed for his survival", my dog knows and kills prey when he sees it. IF he had grown up around pet bunnies, raccoon, etc, i think he would be less inclined to always kill them.

//". A dog makes no difference between a poodle and a great dane, and he doesn't make a difference either between a dog and a human."//



I think a dog can indeed, easily distinguish between another dog, and a human. Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!. My dog in no way responds to humans in sameway he responds to dogs, at all.
My dog also seems able to distinguish many other species, as well, he does not react to cats in the same way as bunnies, and he does not seem to think horses are the same as geese. Buddy can tell species apart.
Other species can also tell other types of animals apart, a deer will run from seeing a lion, but not a monkey. Being able to distinguish animals apart is req'd for survival.


I think probably most dogs DO treat all breeds of dogs the same, but mydog also distinguishes between certain breeds. There are a few breeds of dog Buddy always always hates, always, no exceptions. There are a few breeds he almost invariably likes, now.


I know a few other dog owners who have noticed their dog also has a preference, or aversion, to a few certain breeds, as well. I have also heard of owners whose dog was unsure about large breeds or small breeds.


dogs ARE FASCINATING arent' they???


I love one thing about Caesar Milan, and this is his emphasis on the importance of exercising dogs----------but i so so so share your disapproval of many of Milan's methods of managing dogs. I wish more ppl saw that the way YOU do, but, because of his tv show, we now have millions of ppl yanking their dogs around, kicking them in the sides, shoving dogs down to the floor, intimidating dogs, etc etc. Makes me sick, too, Pawbla.

Ever since starting this topic, I don't watch Cesar Millan anymore, nor do I want to!!

Yeah, me either, MissyBC, many of us now know better, you are not the only "reformed ex-milan fan" around here!!

and instead, we watch "It's Me or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell.

Don't forget kikopup!

Running_dog, that's okay, I guess we won't agree, haha!
I think, however, that it's pretty useless trying to figure out exactly HOW a dog sees us. We may never know!

Can, with a great deal of rehabilitation. They have to counter-condition imprinting.
But many bird rescue orgs don't release imprinted birds, they PREVENT imprinting. I should know, I'm in one.

I'll have to disagree here. I've seen enough dead, starved dogs because they couldn't learn how to scavenge or hunt.

Agreed there. And I think those 50,000+ years of evolutionary development are the reason they see us as part of their species, or their packs, at least.

I know. We have a bunch of those as strays. Usually they're black and white or brown, medium-sized, straight ears, etc. The natural dog is like a dingo.

I don't see how this is against what I said, hahaha. I agree with that. Dogs that grow up with cats don't kill cats and dogs that grow up with bunnies don't kill bunnies. That's pretty much my general idea .

Like I say, it depends on the association a dog makes. What I'm saying is that they don't handle CONCEPTS. They know this animal that walks in two legs and has a hairy head, and this other furry animal who hops around and has long years, etc, but I hardly doubt they handle the species CONCEPT. That's the reason some dogs live with a cat, with no problems, and then they chew off another cat's head. They recognize individuals and groups of species. I'm pretty sure a bunny can't tell apart an eagle from a hawk. They only know they hunt in the same way. However I think they'd recognize a lion from a monkey, because one is harmful and the other isn't.

Yes, totally agree with you there - we're lucky to have this forum, even if I came here kickin' around stuff and making discussion (hahaha, I'm a sucker for debates, sorry if I'm wreaking havoc in the forums) I still find that even if we don't agree in the finer points, we have a bunch in common and I enjoy these discussions a lot. They enrich us! I'm specially enjoying the debates with you, we seem to differ in so much and yet, so little! Haha.

Wow, I didn't know the show. I'm going to check out if they transmit it in Latin America. Does she use positive reinforcement techniques?

EDIT: Shoot, I checked it out, and it's Wednesdays and Thursdays at 1AM! . Can't watch it, at least not when I start Uni again.

//"Can,(release hand raised rescued birds) with a great deal of rehabilitation. They have to counter-condition imprinting."//
Nah, they can have the wild birds as pets, holding them from birth on, and still release the birds into the wild. Much of the behavior of any animal, is on our DNA.

I'm sure there are various local orgs who have their own methods, but, it's not uncommon at all, to feed a tiny baby infant wild bird, care for intensely, by hand, love it, have as a pet in one's home, til it reaches the age it can fend for itself, and then release it into the wild to fend for itself.
Is it your belief, that hand raised birds would somehow lose their innate knowledge and instincts of how find prey, what to eat, how to mate and how to make a nest, etc? if a human raised them by hand??? or if a human was the first thing they saw? what?

//"I've seen enough dead, starved dogs because they couldn't learn how to scavenge or hunt."//

true, true, there is a severe dog overpopulation crisis in most countries. Like i said, if released where there is a proper climate and sufficient prey, a dog who has not been mutated to an extreme disabled breed, can hunt and kill to feed itself. Urban areas may not be ideal hunting grounds for dogs, nor most other types of predators, either.

//"And I think those 50,000+ years of evolutionary development are the reason they see us as part of their species, or their packs, at least."//

No, i do not in any way, think dogs see us humans as being the same species as they are. I disagree that dogs see humans as a "different breed" of dog as you had said.


//"I don't see how this is against what I said, hahaha"//
My comments were about your remark that dogs could only distinguish one species from another, "only if they needed to, to survive".(?)

//"........nd and has long years, etc, but I hardly doubt they handle the species CONCEPT."//

OH, i was replying to your remarks that dogs can't distinguish one species from another, that dogs see humans as same type of creature they are. The word "concept" may mean different things to different ppl, but, my point is, i do not think dogs see humans as the same as they are.
Much of animals behaviors and ideas about other animals are set into the brain by genetics. We can alter that to an extent, there are stunning stories of creatures who usually don't get along, learning to get along. But animals can tell one species from another, innately.
which is the main point i was making.

Yes, thinking and questioning are always good for one's brain.
What behaviors in dogs do you see,
that lead you to the conclusion, that dogs think humans are dogs?

LOL we can agree to disagree. I guess Buddy and Zac don't read books so they haven't realised they aren't supposed to know they are dogs!

I Googled imprinting in dogs, they reckon it happens between 3 and 10 weeks - pups spend a lot of that time with their mum and other pups. If people are around and looking after them it still doesn't mean that the pups will imprint on people. If you had a mum and pups in a barn with other animals for that period I think the pups would still know they were dogs though they would learn to accept the other animals as furniture. Hunters sometimes raise lurcher pups with lambs to make them stock steady, the pups still don't think they are sheep and the sheep don't think they are dogs.

But dogs haven't been domesticated by sheep, it changes everything. It's the same reason why pigeons imprint easily, yet you have a hard time having other animals imprinting on you even if you want to. Because pigeons were domesticated for years, even if it's dormant in their genes, they still have this easy imprinting. Especially where I live, since all pigeons here are descendants of domestic pigeons rather than rock pigeons.

Yes, Rdog, i agree, is just how i see it, too.
i said //"I think if you stuck a puppy into a litter of kittens or geese, he'd still grow up to be a full fledged dog, although, there's a great chance, he'd tolerate the presence of cats or geese, very very well....but, he'd still be a DOG in every way."//

but, i suspect, possibly, that Pawbla was just trying to comment on the affinity of humans and dogs, as it IS a very amazing relationship, the whole dog + human bond. It really is an amazing, enduring, worldwide phenomenon, for 1000s and 1000s of years, a very remarkable bond of two species not only learning and living together, but even learning to "read" each other's signals....

i just love dogs.

Yes, Pawbla, i guess you and i will have agree to disagree, too, i disagree entirely with almost every word of your last post, and i could post rebuttals endlessly, but, i doubt i could persuade you to reconsider your decisions about if birds can recognize and find prey without being taught how, that wild birds are indeed, cared for and released all the time, even if hand raised and fed with eyedroppers,
that some of your remarks seem to be confusing wolves group hunting of Large prey with dogs, (dogs and wolves are NOT the same) that dogs can and do survive without humans, although many are rounded up and put into shelters, and dogs can hunt in packs, dogs do sometimes go for larger prey, if they can catch it, and dogs can and DO hunt alone,(? i just explained how mine does all the time)
and yes, even a dalmation can hunt and find many small creatures to feed himself, as he does have natural body shape, NOT an extremely mutated body shape, that cattle are a fairly recent mutation on the evolutionary tree, and that dogs being more closely linked to wolf dna does not mean they are more likely to be good hunter, like the Pekinesse, although closely related to the wolf by dna, might have hard time hunting because it has a severely mutated body shape,
(btw, you share 78% of your dna with a daffodil, and >96% with a chimp, even a slight tweak of DNA makes a huge difference...)
and
that i could not understand your remarks on how you decided that dogs can't tell we humans are not dogs as well, i did not spot even one specific behavior, that you listed as being a sign a dog uses to indicate he thinks humans are some breed of dog.....but, even if you did list one,
i could list many that show dogs do NOT treat humans the same way as dogs,
but,
whatever, we can agree to disagree. I am glad a thinker like you is here, (even if we disagree! ha ha) and i am glad someone who has 3 dogs in her life that all need training has found DogTrickAcademy, as i think you, and the 3 dogs, will all benefit from DTA!!! and i hope, with continued effort, you will be able to train that one dog that your parents care for, to learn how to not pull on a leash so he CAN get his walks, i feel real bad for that dog, and, no doubt, your posts will be good opportunities for all of us to think about many topics, as well!!
Thinking is always a good thing..

It is all just fine,
not all of us around here see all things the same way, and that is fine.

I think I have a couple of books that reference the study on bird imprinting and survival chance after releasing, when I feel a bit better I'll look for them.
You can say to me I'm wrong about EVERYTHING in dogs and I will believe you (well, not before I see the research - on that topic, any good ethology books on your ideas? Because so far I haven't been reading much variety) but I DO work with birds and I AM updated on the latest studies on bird survival. The belief that birds were 100% instinct is pretty old (as old as the "dogs have no feelings", at least), and latest research shows that most of the stuff FLOCK birds do is learned. Of course birds of prey are a whole different topic . I might be about a year late on the latest research, but the stuff you are mentioning is oooold and allowing imprinting is only mentioned in the oldest book I have - in the others are AVOID AT ALL COSTS! Hahahaha. Seriously, I gotta search for them, but I think I left them at home.

Dogs can and do survive without humans, but, how many? I live in a 3rd world country, I'm pretty sure there is no research on the topic, but being involved here I know abandoned dogs, unless abandoned in downtown where people feed them and all, have a pretty high mortality rate. That does include farms and all.
Confusing dogs/wolves... maybe, if you say so, but wouldn't they hunt like wolves if the way they hunted was 100% coded in instinct? They haven't hunted since thousands of years. I'm pretty sure they learn how to from their basic prey instinct - catch that moving thing, and that's all their strategy. And a dog with not much prey drive will most likely die.

We all come from a pretty common genetic ground, just guess that we all came from a couple of bacterias. A Pekingese may be closely related, but like you said, it was waaaay too modificated. I think we both agree that those breeds, even if they had the instinct, couldn't be able to survive, because of their lack of body shape. I'm not saying a dalmatian can't survive - I'm saying it's less likely. Try any breed with not much prey drive (dalmatian is not a great example of that, though, I sort of randomly picked another breed xD) and they will most likely perish.

Yeah, I guess it's true that the tendency is that dogs do NOT treat humans like dogs - but we'd have to do a couple of experiments in controlled conditions to be able to see if what I'm saying is right or wrong. What I'm saying is that natively, in a zero point, they don't, and we MAKE them associate humans in a certain way that they don't associate dogs - because we don't treat them like dogs, to a lesser or greater extent, we treat them and love them like members of our own species. Because we don't treat them like dogs treat them and that's why they make a different association. Like I said, different associations WILL get done between different dog breeds, for example this Dogo that has dog aggression ONLY towards Poodles. You are observing dogs from non-controlled growth conditions and making deductions from what you see, but it's unlikely your observations show what WOULD have happened in a controlled growth condition. Unless you are basing your arguments in more than anecdotal evidence (click for a good comic about it) it's still a matter of opinions. Which brings me to the point, I did said scientific research, by the way . I think it's more trustworthy than just our opinions.

Thinking is pretty good and I see you love to do it too, hahaha!
We can always agree to disagree, really! But if you send me some titles of research, books, or something else, I'm always grateful to have more books to read .
Yeah, poor Hosen! At least he is going for walks now, haha, and I already ordered a no pull harness. Maybe it will make my parents be more fond of training him - who knows. We all love gadgets, huh?
I think we all benefit from DTA - this is a GREAT forum.

<---still baffled, you say you have scientific research on dogs treating humans as dogs?

is that what you said?
I readily admit, i do not completely follow your thoughts well.

BUT STOKED that you are working towards being able to get the dogs walked! THAT WARMS MY HEART to think that dog will get walked! YESssssssss!! Especially since you are going to be a dog trainer, is great place to start, is with the family dogs!!!!!!!

Lolz, the comic was lame, no scientist would be impressed with that. someone who either does not even remotely understand the scientific method, or just hates science, (there are a lot of ppl who do)
or has a world view that could be threatened by science, is the type that made that cartoon. "The Scientific Method" is an actual research method, and worth a google, to anyone who is not familiar with the concept of science and reliable assessing data and doing research testing, not a joke at all.

Nah, birds who border on extinction, are even hand raised and released, and have been saved from extinction by human interventions, and still hunt, mate, nest, etc. but whatever. If you still want to believe that humans raising birds and releasing them fails, go for it. In my country, i think it is even illegal to permanently possess a native wild bird.

Many species are very successfully released by humans, and their numbers were raised. Even the condor, one of the birds most difficult to raise, did better if kept longer by humans, than the condors which were given puppets as parents(to prevent imprinting) and released when the parents would have released them.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3801266 Most of the bird rescue sites i looked at claim about a 70% success rate at releasing wild birds when raised by humans, but, it varies by species. Some species are very easy to raise up, and others, not so much. who knew?

Birds, like dogs, can recognize prey when they see it, and know how to mate without being shown how, and build a nest and raise their young, even if no bird showed them how "to parent", etc. When birds build their first nest, they've never seen it done before, yet, their brains are wired with this innate knowledge.
but whatever. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe!!

The idea that much of a creature's behavior IS neurobiologically driven, and innate, and on the DNA is not necessarily "an old idea."
but, if you swap out the words a bit, it IS an old idea----even 100s of years ago, farmers knew, that mating up 2 dogs great at herding, did produce better herders than 2 dogs who were terrible at herding...although the farmers had never heard of dna.

they knew it was an inherited (and complex) behavior, on the dna, even though they didn't know what dna was. So it is both an old idea,
and a new idea, once we knew about dna.

There are plenty of dalmation owners, or many breeds of dogs, whose dogs much LOVE a good lively squirrel or bunny chase, who'd disagree that a dalmation has no prey drive.


but, back to the main point, that i disagree with,
Dogs do not see us humans as some type of dogs. Species of animals can tell other species apart,and make distinctions. I'm happy to see this research you have on that! that dogs think humans are other dogs.

no wait, you do agree: (sort of)

//"Yeah, I guess it's true that the tendency is that dogs do NOT treat humans like dogs"//
the rest of your remarks after that remark, seem to indicate a willingness on your part to suspend knowledge of innate neurobiologically driven behaviors. Dogs who have never seen a human,(no "associations") and were never raised by humans, would still know, upon seeing their first human, that it was not a dog.

maybe i just think dogs ARE more smart than you do?? lolz!! But, like i said, you can put a baby dog into a goose's nest, and he'd still be a full-fledged dog because of his innate knowledge of how to be a dog.. but, he'd be a dog who tolerates geese very well.

here's a thread you might find intersting:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/make-some-popcorn-great-dog-video.4453/

Re: good books on dogs: (it's hard for me to find one i completely agree with every word, as most still put forth the notion that dog aggression is "caused")
Calming signals, by Turid Rugass
the other end of the leash, by Patricia McConnnell
any video by kikopup
the blog section of DTA by the site admin--many topics there.
click to calm, by Emma Parsons
Watching tv show "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stillwell.

just off the top of my head. Great places to learn about training dogs!!

Yeah, there was a guy (one of the ones I couldn't get to read the book, actually, because we weren't able to get it, but the teacher summed it up for us) that did a research of imprinting, I think that with birds and other animals. Sorry for the vagueness, if I find it in my notes I'll be clearer.

Been training him since November, with daily walks, but without a clicker. Seriously, I didn't remember how hard was to train a dog without a clicker! My timing is already a bit clumsy WITH the clicker, WITHOUT the clicker is just AWFUL! So I haven't been able to use any reward, but environment-based.

Lol! You didn't get the joke, then, it was about that, precisely. SMBC is a comic about science, haha, maybe if you are not familiar with it, the joke is hard to get. But it's making fun of people using anecdotal evidence when it actually proves nothing.

If the bird is native and not an introduced species, yes it is there, haha. But yeah, have you seen HOW they breed them?
1st point. They are usually prey birds who are nearer the 100% instinct thing than flock birds who are absolutely nowhere it.
2nd point. Those birds never actually see humans. They are bred with fake bird heads and usually released in groups. That changes absolutely everything, haha.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it has to be with keeping them home longer. There's no way a bird who is naturally breeding would get to 70%. That's why they keep them longer. I never release birds when they are supposed to be released, if you keep them for about a month more, it usually upgrades their survival chance, as long as they don't imprint more.
Like I said, it depends on the species! Been saying that all thread long! xD. FLOCK birds have FEW instrincts. PREY birds have LOADS of insticts.

BTW: Your link betrayed you!
"Condors have several traits that seem to make their release more difficult: [...] special foraging techniques that have to be learned, and acquired social behaviours that are needed in interactions with other individuals."
This is supporting my claim that MANY behaviours are LEARNED, even in PREY birds, and MUCH MORE in FLOCK birds.

But what you are naming is ALL the instinctive behaviour they have. Recognizing predators (not prey), learning to find food (again, not PREY, prey is instinctive), etc is usually learned. Sexual behaviours are absolutely wired in ALL species, which is pretty much the only aspect you are mentioning. You only mention all sexual behaviours and prey drive. Which is pretty much what all dogs show.

You are mixing things up here. Capabilities are one thing, and learned behaviour is another thing. You can have the BEST homing pigeon in the world - yet if you don't train it and the first time you release it, you release it in the other end of the country, well... poor pigeon, I have to say.

I said a dalmation is a pretty bad example of that and that I picked a random breed that came to my mind - dalmatians actually have a high prey drive.

You are just making my point there. No associations IS an association. Never having seen a human would be the same as never having seen another dog. As a matter of fact, how healthy, mentally, in "our opinion", would a dog that was removed from his mother at 1 day old and never seen a dog until he was 2 years old? Reeeeaaally doubt he'd wag the tail and be all happy at that other random dog. It's the same kind of experiment, if you wish to try it out. I doubt he'd recognize a dog, actually. Same goes for kids that were raised by wild animals - kids supposedly from the smartest and whatever species of the planet, couldn't see that the humans they had in front of them were just like them. Why? Last time they saw one, they were only a few months old.

But like you said - dogs have thousands of years of domestication with HUMANS, not with geese. And yeah, you can't make parallelisms there, because HUMANS are the ONLY species that domesticates animals. You can't really experiment in this area. Sadly, because I'd LOVE to!

I read calming signals and I've seen the blog section and the videos by kikopup.
"The other end of the leash", I was planning on buying it.
Click to calm, never heard of it, I'm going to investigate.
And the show - I wanted to watch it, but horrible timetables

//". As a matter of fact, how healthy, mentally, in "our opinion", would a dog that was removed from his mother at 1 day old----------"//

well, that would be cruel to do this, and im' not sure of all the health damage that could be done there.
even breeders clearing out that litter box at 8 weeks old, is too soon imo.

//"and never seen a dog until he was 2 years old? Reeeeaaally doubt he'd wag the tail and be all happy at that other random dog. "//

I bet he could. no way to know, but, i bet he could and would, IF he had normal dog neurobiology. There are other creatures on the planet, that rarely see their own kind, yet interact appropriately when they do.


i sense i may put more store into inherent behaviors and the power of one's neurobiology than you seem to. Not that training and conditioning don't matter, but when nature is left alone, there are innate bits of knowledge already there.