Won't Stand Up For Step Up

Discussion in 'Training Challenges' started by tylerthegiant, May 11, 2013.

  1. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    JJ has no problem putting her feet on a book, however she prefers to do it laying down! Down is a default behavior for her, so the first times she put her feet on the book she was laying down, so I clicked and treated. Now she's chained that and I can't seem to get her higher than a bow with her feet on the book with any consistency. I can't really approximate standing from a bow very well, should I just hold out until I get standing and foot on the book and start only rewarding for that? She shuts down pretty easily if she gets frustrated so I want to avoid that if possible. Suggestions?
    MaryK likes this.

  2. Mutt Experienced Member

    Can you let her walk over it, maybe use something a little higher?
    Maybe learn her 'stand' first and ask that when she bowes/lies down on the book (that way it is clear what you want).
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  3. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    Gotcha. I like! Feel unstuck, know a few things to try. :)
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  4. sara Moderator

    Sometimes the only way to become "unstuck" is to get opinions :) I used to get stuck alot, especially with Oliver, but I eventually learned to look at it from a completely different standpoint... I can usually unstick myself now :)
  5. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    :D:D:D Used an ottoman instead of a book so she has basically no choice but to stand to put her feet on it and she got it in all of about 3 minuets. I LOVE free shaping with this dog! On our way to the elephant trick, and then many more!
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  6. Mutt Experienced Member

    Good job :)
    MaryK likes this.
  7. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    Thank you for you help. Now that I got the behavior I just need to reinforce it a bit more and then I'll add the cue. Once the cue is added, will I need to generalize this to other items to stand on like I would generalizing and proofing any other cue (meaning start from scratch in a new situation and then add the cue once I'm getting the behavior consistently)?
    MaryK likes this.
  8. brody_smom Experienced Member

    Careful with generalizing "paws up " with a big dog. She might start "offering it" in all kinds of interesting ways! I know Brody does!
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  9. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    Good point. I am often careful about what tricks I have taught them because of their size.
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  10. sara Moderator

    LOL! Yeah, teaching her "paws up" on your arm for "pray" (like I did with Oliver), might just be a horrible idea! LOL Though she shouldn't generalize to you (or the cabinets) if you always put an object down in front of her then ask for it.
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  11. MaryK Honored Member

    LOL I was thinking the same thing Sara, I use my arm for Ra Kismet with 'pray' and he's heavy enough!:rolleyes:
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  12. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    I was going to work with her on this more last night but I just got too tired. I know I have to generalize this to some objects at least because I can't just put an ottoman out in front of her every time I want her to do it. LOL I did try it on a coffee table I have and I'm struggling to find items tall enough that I actually don't mind her stepping up on, but then again, may be it's solid enough that she's stand on something smaller now without laying down.

    Yeah, I don't think I'll be teaching her "pray" on my arms guys! :LOL: This girl has given me two black eyes hitting me with her head, I like four on the floor with her (one black eye though she wasn't jumping-have to give her credit for that one)! I have purposely never taught the danes roll over, because I was working on it with JJ and it just looked so awkward, and uncomfortable for her I decided not to teach her it, or standing up on two legs, that makes both the danes taller than me, no thanks. LOL
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  13. brody_smom Experienced Member

    I haven't gotten any black eyes, but a couple of times I have been bending over at the same time as Brody was about to jump up onto something. The first time, he hit my chin really hard with the top of his head and I bit my tongue so hard it hurt for days. The second one he hit my nose square on with the top of his head. Man, did that hurt. It didn't break or even bleed. I just kept thinking how much it must hurt to actually have your nose broken, if it hurt that much without it breaking.
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  14. MaryK Honored Member

    We should start a thread on 'How Many Times Have You Suffered An Injury When Training". I think it's par for the course for the trainer to suffer injuries, like horse riding, they happen!;)

    My recent injuries have been, same as yours Brody's Mom, hit on the nose and had the same thought what it must really feel like to actually break your nose. Along with being 'flattened' just recently when trying the jump over me trick. I was on all fours and his Lordship was distracted - the soccer ball of course - and came flying up full pelt dribbling (if that's the correct soccer term) his ball and bumped me hard and fast laying me flat on the ground!

    Tyler the Giant, something tells me a Dane doing roll over would look all legs, not the most elegant position for a girl:rolleyes: And standing on hind legs, apart from the height issue, I personally feel would put too much strain on their joints etc. all that body weight on those, for their size, slender legs. I would avoid any of those tricks.

    You could try large books stacked up for the elephant trick. Or maybe a crate with a good solid book on top of it.
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  15. brody_smom Experienced Member

    I'm having a hard time finding something suitable for the elephant trick, and Brody is only 24 inches tall. It has to be roundish, smooth on top, but sturdy enough to support his weight. I have been searching my house. The only thing I have is a little plastic step stool we keep in the kitchen for reaching high shelves. The top has grooves on it, though, so it makes it a little difficult for his paws to rotate smoothly as his back legs walk around.
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  16. Mutt Experienced Member

    For Mazzel (35 kg) I used a wooden block. Not very high but that isn't nessecary as it is about the movement. A kids stool (the kind you use in the bathroom) are also very suitable.
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  17. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    You guys are so helpful and creative.

    @MaryK, wait until the first time I post a video of JJ in a training session (I left my camera at my parents house otherwise I'd have taken one for you guys). She is SUPER enthusiastic :cool: and ah, animated because of it and a pile of anything would be knocked over in a second. Haha. I wish I had a crate, may be I have some boxes that might work......

    @Brodysmom, Brody is a big boy, isn't he? I bet he's strong as an ox too, pound for pound dogs are much stronger than we are, more muscle density. I got to tell you, the more you talk about Brody the more I like him, I bet seeing all that potential in him is very motivating and endearing.

    @Mutt, last night I got her to put her feet on a oh, I don't know what they're called, it's an external fan that keeps your computer from overheating that goes under the computer, so it's thin and the size of a laptop. DH's was broken and I thought it was perfect size for where we're at, so it's going well. Your post made me think, I could also use a bathroom scale. Don't have any bricks, blocks or kid's stools around. But with a little imagination one can be resourceful.

    She is no longer lying down for more than a moment or two initially when I put something in front of her, but now the current challenge is getting her to keep her feet up there until she hears a release word. She puts her feet up, I wait a few seconds, click, throw the treat on the hot spot, keeping clicking and treating as she keeps her feet up, keep throwing the treats on the hotspot, the moment a piece of chicken falls off the prop, she's moving to eat it and taking her feet off the prop before she's released. LOL So I end up bent over the hotspot and trying to get sticky, not-very-thowable cooked chicken right on the prop. Awkward........

    I think though if I start waiting longer and longer periods when she first puts her feet up before I click and reward and then release before the click I think we'll get past this. To JJ, The Treat Is Not The Release! LOL
    brodys_mom likes this.
  18. Mutt Experienced Member

    If you want her to stay on it untill you give the release word I would only give a treat after you release her :)
    I often trow a treat away from the dog (so they have to break their position which I'm rewarding) to ''reset'' them.
    Here a click/treat also means that they may stop with the trick.
  19. tylerthegiant Well-Known Member

    I usually use a touch command as the reset and she comes over and targets my hand. There's always more than one way to do things, isn't there? :)

    I definitely need to step it up to treat only when released or we'll never get there!
    Mutt likes this.
  20. 648117 Honored Member

    I used a phone book with Holly.
    Ok, Holly is little (6.5kg, 28.4cm at the shoulders), but in class we were using ceramic tiles that are the same size as a phone book and all the dogs used them (I think the biggest dog in the class was a tall lab X), they are not round. I don't think the height is important, you could probaly even use something that's completely flat on the floor as long as the dog understands to keep their feet on it.
    brodys_mom and Mutt like this.

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