Please Read Before Considering This Training!

Discussion in 'Protection Training' started by karleee, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. karleee Well-Known Member

    Ok-I DEFINITLY WOULD'T recommend this training for INEXPERIENCED dog trainers. Schutzhund is a German word meaning "protection dog". The sport was started in Germany around the 1900's. It's purpose was that, if a German Shepherd DIDN'T pass the shutzhund test, it wasn't allowed to breed. This was done to continue quality working German Shepherd. This method is still in practice to this day in Germany.

    The sport consists of three parts:

    1. Tracking
    2. Obedience
    3. Protection

    I am now going to raise awareness of the dangers of training in protection and/or protection:

    If not trained in protection correctly-it may have BAD,BAD consequences. If you consider doing ANY shutzhund work,your dog should be very obedient.It needs to learn to attack ON YOUR COMMAND and release ON YOUR COMMAND.If not,Your dog could SERIOUSLY injure, or even KILL a person!

    If you are INEXPERIENCED at this type of dog training, please consult a PROFESSIONAL TRAINER to help you!

    You could also train in person protection,this is VERY handy,you never know when you need to be protected by your dog, break-ins,assaults etc. BUT PLEASE READ ABOVE RULES!

    And, if your going to use a person decoy, use protection padding!

    karleee :)
    MaryK likes this.

  2. karleee Well-Known Member

    Also-your dog DOESN'T have to be a German Shepherd to take part-but they do the best ;)
    MaryK likes this.
  3. running_dog Honored Member

    Maybe this forum should specifically exclude posts on the protection dog aspects?

    Any protection dog training should be carried out only under an experienced instructor. Schutzhund clubs are inundated with people who want to take part mostly in the protection dog aspects. Good clubs take care to vet prospective participants.

    There are good reasons why Schutzhund training is not publicised.

    Have a look at the DTA current visitors page, there are dozens of visitors who never become members. They could be any kind of dog owner. There are 1000's of members who visit that we know nothing about.

    I'd love to train a dog in Schutzhund, a massive Airedale terrier or doberman would be my preference. BUT I don't think it is a good idea to freely publicize methods of attack dog training, it is not a sport to be dabbled in. Let this forum focus on the other aspects and any protection dog threads that are started be moderated out.
    Dlilly, MaryK, mewzard and 1 other person like this.
  4. running_dog Honored Member

    Any responsible person involved in Schutzhund is MOST unlikely to want to frequent a forum that makes freely available information on the protection dog aspects of the training. Those who do frequent that kind of forum will be just the sort of dabblers (or even children) that the clubs make great efforts to vet out.

    Schutzhund protection dog training is NOT about teaching a dog the trick of grabbing a human by the arm. With a little thought any trainer can teach a lap dog to do that.

    Schutzhund is about conditioning/training a dog to know that it is sometimes desirable to threaten a human being, to attack a human being - the dog does not have to instinctively feel any threat.

    It is impossible to post enough disclaimers for making that sort of information freely available.
    Dlilly, MaryK, Lexy88 and 1 other person like this.
  5. charmedwolf Moderator

    Running_dog- I will presonally moderate this forum to make sure nothing dangerous is posted.

    Unknown to a lot of people on this forum, I am a helper in Schutzhund which is the person that actually gets bit and motivates the dog to continue.

    It is a sport if the suit is not on the person it is highly unlikely that the dog will attack. It is not a sport that trains Personal Protection Dogs (That is something highly different and insanely dangerous) but a dog that is a game with it's handler.

    These dogs when trained are in mostly a prey drive and rarely defense drive. Most people would say these dogs are basically police dogs this is NOT true. A police dog can become a Schutzhund dog but it is almost impossible for a Schutzhund dog to become a police dog without extremely entensive training towards attacking without a bite suit.

    Remember, protection work is only one part of Schutzhund though a highly flashy one, there is also obedience (which is incredible to watch) and also tracking.

    If anybody needs help or wants to know anything more they can personally come to me if they don't feel comfortable posting here. I'd be willing to send people to other clubs and forums where people are willing to help others join there sport.
    blacknym, MaryK, Lexy88 and 3 others like this.
  6. running_dog Honored Member

    That is great Charmedwolf and your moderation answers my concerns 100%. :)
    MaryK, mewzard and karleee like this.
  7. karleee Well-Known Member

    lol-i was the one who sudgested the idea,so if anyone DOES post anything that could be considered dangerous,I'm sure we'll ALL set the straight ;)
    MaryK likes this.
  8. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Yes, i understood RunningDog's concerns very well, we do have many children coming through DTA.
    We already HAVE forums here
    on obedience,
    and some on tracking, too.

    So the only part left is the "attack on cue" thing, which i think should be left to professionals. So far as i know, we have few if any members here, who have attack dogs, nor would be willing to help another member learn how to do this in their backyard....

    Also, most dogs are naturally protective of their owners anyway. The average typical dog owner does NOT need a dog specifically trained to attack on cue, the dog will naturally do what he can to protect his owner, so i also have concerns about this thread, even if well moderated.

    Any child or teen
    or even an adult who is not great at dog training
    could come along,
    read the posts,
    and decide, "How cool would i be, if i trained my dog to attack on cue?!"

    What would stop a child from reading the posts?

    WHY would any average dog owner want to do this? Certainly police dogs need this training, and some security service dogs, but THOSE groups have their own forums and websites, professional trainers, certifications, and criteria.
    THIS website is for dog tricks........


    signed,
    "still concerned" and hopes no one ever ever begins to post "how to train your dog to attack on cue". I think even putting the idea out there is not good idea for a bunch of just average dog owners, with pet dogs with all types of dispositions and issues.

    For people interested in owning attack dogs,
    there are websites dedicated to training attack dogs. I'd even be concerned about legal liabilities, of adding in how to teach "attack" into a tricks website.

    Ideas on "obedience"
    and
    "tracking"
    could be added to existing threads,
    or new threads on that could be started.
    Dlilly likes this.
  9. running_dog Honored Member

    I still like the idea of this forum - with strict Moderation as is planned...
    but...
    could I clarify whether methods used to train a dog with a suited person could maybe be applied by an unscrupulous/immature person to train a dog with an unsuited person?

    I remember as a child training our family dog the "trick" of grabbing a cushioned arm, it was a horrendously stupid thing to do. Thankfully that dog was a pacifist but other dogs might not be so forgiving of human stupidity :eek:.
    storm22 and tigerlily46514 like this.
  10. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    //'It is a sport if the suit is not on the person it is highly unlikely that the dog will attack."//


    This is probably true, of carefully screened and selected dogs trained by professionals.
    Not sure if it would apply to some stranger, with a pet dog of unknown temperament, reading these threads and thinking, "I, too, could properly teach attack, and my dog, too, would perfectly understand and follow my cues. It says right there, the dog will only attack on cue, to a person wearing a bulky, fiberfilled coat,OOPS! I meant a dog suit. And certainly, my dog will correctly understand the cue perfectly, every time."



    Because all of us here,
    can testify
    that our dogs always always always
    perfectly
    perform and understand their tricks, right?
    evvvvvvvvvvvvvvverytime!! right?
    :rolleyes:


    and i think back to, when i was teaching the cue "speak", several members here tried to warn me,:rolleyes: "Once you reward a behavior, that behavior can become more common and spontaneous."
    STill, i thought, "I'm only teaching Buddy to bark on cue! Not just bark all the time, randomly, on his own."
    However, my dog did indeed,
    as predicted by so so many others here,
    become a much barkier dog in general
    than he ever was prior to being rewarded for barking.
    Not just "on cue".
    and wowza, it was a lot more work getting him to learn the stop cue!! lolz.

    Certainly, others could post, "but i taught my dog to bark on cue, and *my* dog did not become a barkier dog in general." cuz,
    all
    dogs
    are
    individuals.


    What would stop a child from reading the posts?
    Or a fool?

    why take this risk?

    Why dont' others interested in learning this,
    go to a real schitzhund dog site? or even better, a professional who is experienced with this type of "attack" training?

    "Attack" is not a "trick"
    and we already have forums for obedience,
    and some tracking threads, too.


    Could this "attack on cue" forum be locked out, SO IT CAN'T BE SEEN by just every passerby,
    and maybe have admission to this forum,(?)
    by CWolf's permission only? (or, some similarly sensible, knowledgeable dog trainer like Cwolf is?)









    With some type of questionnaire being filled in first,
    like age of owner,
    personality type of dog-------does this dog have any behavioral issues?



    and have owners submit displays/descriptions of how well this owner can control their dog in general,:rolleyes:
    etc etc,
    similar to how dogs and ppl are screened to join in the real schutzhund training???

    Will there be any legal consequences, to someone thinking they are training their dog to "only attack ppl wearing dog suits" from encouragement and videos in this thread,
    and doing it wrong? and someone gets hurt?

    (i know, picture one of us having problems getting our dog to perfectly understand a cue, i know, sooooooo hard to picture!!):ROFLMAO:
    Dlilly likes this.
  11. storm22 Experienced Member

    my problem also is people will train there dogs without the arm pads and safety gear that dogs learn to ONLY ATTACK
    also if some idiot could read it use it on humans whenever they want to whats to stop them applying it to train there dogs to attack other dogs, it would probably be the same principals im sure morons probably google ' how to get your dog to attack'
    we had a rescue pit fighting dog i have seen the issues these dogs go through after being released from the hell of pit fighting and we could never fully trust her with other female dogs even at 18years old she had a go at a female pup, (she never got close cause we always thought the danger was there even at her age and we were right) she was awesome with people and male dogs but never round female dogs as thats what she was trained to do,

    if you are really keen on the protection side of it im sure you could ask C/WOLF and if she thought you were capable of owning and training such a dog she would most probably send you in the right direction or help you with queries
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  12. GEORGE'SDAD Well-Known Member

    I think that "teaching" a dog to bite on cue is kinda sketchy, BUT...since the dog has an instinct to protect the owner and/or pack (children, etc.) I think it would behoove all responsible dog owners (especially those of "bully breeds") to train the dog to let go or "OUT!" on command. My buddy sugguested this at one time (he is an Air Force Military Working Dog handler and has a Belgian Malinois*sp*) and said that a well trained and obedient dog that will let go and return to the owner/handler could avoid a potential lawsuit. Makes sense to me but I could be wrong.:ninja:
  13. Dice Smith Well-Known Member

    I have always been fascinated by the sport of shutzhund. I've watched many shows where they have shown trained dogs performing at shutzhund rallys and I think it is a beautiful sport FOR PROFFESIONALS AND WELL TRAINED, WELL BEHAVED DOGS ONLY. I will admit I have always wanted to take part in shutzhund and hoped to one day be able to work and train a german shepherd in this under the guidance of a trained proffessional. And while it is a dream I still hope to one day come true, I know it is way off in my future, if at all. I personally believe this best left to the proffessionals and law enforcement officials. No everyday dog owner should ever train their dog to do this, NEVER EVER, there is simply to much risk and danger involved.
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  14. Dice Smith Well-Known Member

    And if someone wants to train their dog in shutzhund because they believe it will keep their family safe in a dangerous situation, than that is just plain stupid. I believe that every dog will fight to protect their family, regardless of whether or not they were trained to. THIS IS A DANGEROUS THING TO TEACH. IT IS NO "COOL TRICK". DON'T DO IT!!!
    juliexox and tigerlily46514 like this.
  15. JazzyandVeronica Experienced Member

    I know several folks from other forums that are very active in shutzhund. I do have an interest in it; but first of all it requires the "right" dog; not breed wise but mentally/emotionally...and that's not my dog.

    Second, it also requires training with a professional and incredibly rigorous, time consuming training - not something I could commit to at this point.

    Some interesting tidbits I have picked up along the way though - listening to folks that are involved...include that shutzhund really is not considered to be protection training, it's a sport. Shutzhund trained dogs are not "attacking" they are "biting and holding"; it may not sound like much of a difference but there really is one. Law enforcement and personal protection dogs are trained quite differently or so I have been told.

    The other interesting piece about Shutzhund is that many dogs are initially worked in prey drive; which reinforces the idea that they see the whole bite and hold as a big game. I understand that they do try to move the dogs over to defense drive - but that requires an already well trained, very stable dog - because working in that drive is very stressful for the dog.

    I find it all fascinating and I would love to learn more about it!
    Dice Smith likes this.
  16. Lexy88 Well-Known Member

    Interesting thread. I would love to just go along and watch or help out with Schutzhund but the only club in our country - is at the top of our country, long way away from me.

    I thought I might just add a note to this thread for people who think it would be cool to teach dogs to bite or attack on command - this is ILLEGAL in a lot of countries. And also a very bad idea unless you are very, very experienced.
  17. lil joe Active Member

    wow and i thought this would be a good place to learn tricks and stuff but after reading this thread i see people with very little facts and a lot of opinion . why include this on your forum when its obvious that its not wanted , there are bad people and bad training in any venue but to thrash something with no experience is exactly the reason guys like me are hesitant about trying something new . if anyone is in northern california and would like to come out and see first hand about any of these protection sports please feel free to contact me i will set it up and buy lunch
  18. SuzanneSB Well-Known Member

    Why on earth would anyone want a dog that attacks on demand...I certainly don't. I also think this idea is why we have so many badly treated bull type dogs filling shelters and rescue centers.
    Dlilly likes this.
  19. southerngirl Honored Member

    It does not make dogs vicious. The dogs who participate in this sport are very well trianed and loved. They don't go around biting people on the streets. People who do this with there dogs love their dogs a lot. This sport is not the reason why bull breads fight and are in shelters. I believe the majority of dogs that do this sport a German Shepard. You can look up youtube videos of people doing this sport, I find it very interesting how well trained these dogs are.
    Dice Smith, DevonW and karleee like this.
  20. srdogtrainer Experienced Member

    I got to see a schutzhund club practice when I was going to school in CA. It was very interesting. I loved the attention the dogs have on their owners. They do some amazing heeling. We met the dogs after they were done training and most of them were just so excited to come say hello. They whined excitedly and couldn't get enough petting. A few were rolling on their back and just so happy. It was great for these high energy dogs to have an outlet for their energy and also be well socialized and under control. Schutzhund has a lot of control aspects to it as well.

    southerngirl likes this.

Share This Page

 
 
 
Real Time Analytics