fickla;18823 said:
Now when I watch Cesar's show I usually watch it on "mute" first so I can really observe and try to decipher what I'm seeing, and then I watch it with the narrator and Cesar's perspective.
That is a
really smart thing to do. I admit I've never tried it, but I know that actors will use this technique when watching another actor for research. That way they see nuances that they otherwise might miss. I will have to try it on his show.
Now I am going to disagree with you
There is a ton of research now showing that wolves do not live in heirarchial packs! It is mom, dad, some older children, and babies. So the term "alpha" is only accurate if dad is alpha over children. What we used to think we knew about wolves was based on captive wolf studies, a whole bunch of unrelated wolves thrown together equalled a ton of dominant displays. So basically the whole being dominant over your dog thing has been thrown out the window. I suggest reading a very wonderful article written by a member of DTA :
I will check it out. Thanks bunches! I am very interested in wolves, and I did know that they lived in family units, and only the alpha male/female mate. I believe that is true of various wild pack animals. Possibly for order?
I highly believe in being a leader for your dogs, but never through intimidation. I have a lot of rules and I may have my dogs wait before going out of doors, but I could care less if they went before me. Waiting is just could practice in impulse control and safety. My dogs have to earn their meals by doing stuff for me to, mainly tricks since I like tricks
And as a trainer I have worked with "dogs with issues" but I have found that I personally have never needed to bully a dog into giving up a resource, or choke one because it lunges on the leash at other dogs. Granted I have not worked with most of the serious cases cesar has, but a ton of positive trainer have successfuly done it without alpha roles, or stringing the dog up.
hmmm. I have been watching the show for a while, and it sounds like you have too. It's interesting to see things from another perspective. When I watch him, I don't see him bullying or using intimidation. I see someone who seems to intimately know dogs and dog behavior, and who also understands the use of energy. As someone who has worked extensively with energy, I completely understand what he is saying when he talks about it. I have not, however, worked with dogs a lot, so maybe my perspective will change over time. I have never seen him "string a dog up" or choke a dog either. I have seen him hold the leash high in the air in order to keep from being bitten. In a situation like that, I don't what else one would do.
If you read Temple Grandin's new book (amazing!), she believes that Cesar is right about dealing with his big group of abandoned dogs at the Dog Psychology Center as that might be comparable to the captive wolves. However she believes that dogs in the home see us humans as more "mom" and "Dad" and therefore our dog families are more like the wild wolf families. Dogs need a "parent" more than a "pack leader." Someone could just say this is a difference in words, but I believe that it really gets at a difference in methods. Parents have rules and enforce them, but they don't use physical force and intimidation (at least not anymore!). I also believe that if you have to use positive reinforcement on wild animals for training, or you'd get eaten!, then it should be no different with our dogs.
I will have to check it out. Thanks for the recommendation.
I will say, Cesar does say there are other methods, and the show always has the warning not to use these methods on your own, and to consult a professional if you're having problems. He also asks people all the time if they have rules they enforce with their children, and why do they not with their dogs. I also think in situations where a child is completely out of control, a parent might need to use more drastic measures than just positive reinforcement. (I say that, because when I was a teenager, I was COMPLETELY out of control!
) For instance, you might
have to physically restrain a child if they are causing harm to themselves or others, or if they are bullies, or if they are aggressive or abusive. In cases like that, a parent would have to use something more, shall we say controversial, in order to help the child, and also to help the people he is focusing his rage/anger/whatever on. Some people even send their kids to military school because of bad behavior. Military school certainly uses intimidation.
I have no idea how wild animals are trained. I did have horses when I was younger though, and in dealing with horses, like when you break them, or even when you're riding, some of the techniques are similar.
I don't think Cesar physically hurts most of the dogs on the show. A quick "touch" should startle a dog, but I don't think it hurts them. I do however believe he scares the crap out of most dogs on the show. When he forces them to the ground, when he holds the leash tight in the air so the dog is on it's hind legs choking, etc. I don't see submissive dogs, but I see very scared dogs with tons of stress signals (tounge flicks, whale eye, head turns, etc).
I had never seen anyone put a dog on the floor like he does. He seems to only do it in really bad aggression cases, like the ones he calls "red zones," or in dominance cases. It does seem to calm the dog down though when he does it, once they relax. I believe he is using pressure points, like in accupunture or accupressure. There is a lot of scientific evidence of the meridian points on the body, and how they affect the flow of energy. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. Sometimes the dogs do look unhappy, but I believe that may be because they are used to having their way, and now they aren't. It reminds me of a sulking child. In episodes where he goes back and revisits cases a year or two later, the dogs do seem much happier to me.
I still watch Cesar since I believe I can learn a lot. He does have a natural way with dogs and I love his philosphies of exercise, discipline, affection and rules, boundries, limitations.
So that's my view. I know that this arguement on Cesar can go round and round forever so I probabally won't say much more. I usually don't go on about him anyway, it's just been a long time since I have so I had the energy this time
I am new here, and I haven't really had the discussion about Cesar before. So thanks very much for giving me your point of view! I am here to learn, and I welcome different points of view, because I believe every animal is different, and what works on one may not necessarily work on another one. Since I am a new dog owner, and I have chosen to have what some consider a difficult breed, I will need all the information I can get my hands on. So thanks again!
