Just Tossing This Out There...

Discussion in 'Dog Health' started by threenorns, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. threenorns Well-Known Member

    given the new research out of UC Davis confirming some of the rather horrifying consequences of spay/neuter, and given that pyometritis is still a darned good reason to spay non-breeding dogs but there is no equivalent reason to neuter,

    can anyone explain to me why it is that whenever i ask about a vasectomy for dogs (no unwanted pups from the sire, his endocrine system isn't cored out, AND he can potentially prevent pregnancy in an intact female since *they* don't know he's shooting blanks!), everybody
    acts like my head has started doing 360s while spewing pea soup and chanting the lord's prayer backward?

    summary of known negative consequences: http://dogtorj.com/main-course/neutering-misconceptions/the-negative-aspects-of-neutering-your-pet/

    AVMA article from 2005 citing increased likelihood of adverse reaction to vaccination in altered dogs: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2005.227.1102?prevSearch=

    rutgers university study from 2007 on negative consequences of spay/neuter on dogs regardless of breed: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

    UC Davis study published feb 13, 2013 showing negative consequences of spay/neuter in golden retrievers: http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498

  2. threenorns Well-Known Member

    PS: any replies stating that neutering/spaying "calms aggression" or "prevents aggression" will be completely ignored and treated like the myth it is. a badly-behaved dog will not be corrected by spay/neuter - they'll just end up a badly-behaved sterile dog.
  3. Maura Well-Known Member

    I could only open one of the links. But, I have been reading of other studies that show a negative association with neutering, especially early neutering. I always advise people to let their dog finish growing before having it fixed. This is especially important in a working dog that is stressing his body. Of course a yorkie is finished growing at nine months and a St. Bernard at 3 years so you can't really give a specific age. I'd rather see a yorkie fixed at six months than a Lab. My current dog is eleven and a half and is still intact. I doubt I will neuter any future dog either.

    As to the vasectomy, your dog can still tie with a female and get a venereal disease. If your sterile dog ties with a female in heat this is not going to prevent the bitch from breeding with another male.
  4. threenorns Well-Known Member

    the studies all show that neutering has a negative impact regardless of the age it's done at, which is why i won't be doing it at all. i'm still trying to find out if partial hysterectomy for females is doable (one vet told me that due to the way they're built, it's not possible to remove the uterus without also removing the ovaries).

    dogs can get diseases from all kinds of things, including their food. multisire litters are not hugely common, since male dogs tend to "stake out a claim" and try to prevent other dogs from approaching the female. it was just a thought - more what i was thinking of was along the lines of the TNR program for cats in places where stray and feral dogs are a problem.
  5. sara Moderator

    Honestly, I won't ever neuter another male dog... unless he acts like a sex-starved maniac and it affects his well-being. Spay yes, after full emotional maturity. (usually between 2nd & 3rd heat is often considered the best time to spay) I also would look into a vasectomy for any future males. Some vets will do it, some wont.
    Dogster and fickla like this.
  6. Anneke Honored Member

    I haven't heard about a vasectomy here in Holland, but I do know with the bitches they can snip the tubes leading from the ovaries, leaving uterus and ovaries in tact.
    But having said that, we hardly sterilize dogs at a young age here. Youngest is 6 months, mostly it is done between 9 to 18 months of age.
    Mutt likes this.
  7. charmedwolf Moderator

    I've always waited for my pups to grow up if I decided to neuter them. Then again I'm used to dealing with females in heat and males being idiots around them. And yet, I still have NEVER had an unplanned pregnancy because of it.

    Kratos is about 6-7, intact-ed and has been around intact-ed females his whole life. The big joke around the kennel is that he has no idea what the boys underneath are for :LOL:.
    hannah_mylo, southerngirl and Anneke like this.
  8. southerngirl Honored Member

    Personally I will always Spay and Neuter my dogs once they are full grown. I didn't get Missy fixed until she was about 4(I had to save my $ and Chase is still intact. Missy has had two accidental pregnancies by Chase the first one we didn't know she was in heat the second one we tried keeping them separated but it failed. So I don't want to chance one of my dogs ever getting pregnant or getting another pregnant. I have known a lot of people who neutered their dog and didn't have a problem with the dog.
    Dice Smith and Pawbla like this.
  9. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    Hmm well this seems like your post was meant just to vent, not to discuss, but I'll add my $0.02 anyway. I would personally wait till my own male dog was full grown before neutering him; I think the growth plate issue is probably not a big issue for most dogs, but it could be for some so I'd wait since I'm a responsible person :) and will keep my dog from impregnating another dog. I'm interested in preventing testicular cancer in my dogs, and dramatically decreasing the chances of prostatitis, prostate cancer, and perianal hernias/fistulas (non-fatal but extremely ouchy). I have personally watched two men cry over a dog who died of metastatic testicular cancer, and their guilt and regret made an impact. They had both spent years scoffing at the need to neuter. There's also the matter of urinary tract infections and complications caused by

    Re: "all the studies", unfortunately not only are some studies summarized improperly by others (willfully or not) but every study has to be looked at carefully. In the U.S., dogs who are well cared for tend to be dogs who are spayed or neutered. Saying "of XYZ amt of dogs who died of hemangiosarcoma, only 28% were intact" tells me only that, of XYZ amount of dogs who presented to a veterinary hospital with hemangiosarcoma, 28% were intact. [I just made up that statistic and example BTW.] There are no routine autopsies done on animals, so the neighbor's intact dog who died suddenly one day may have had hemangio--who knows? We only have info on those who presented to an animal hospital and had enough diagnostics done to determine cause of death.

    Probably because most veterinarians don't learn to do all types of surgery. In the US/Canada, consult a DACVS and you can find someone to do it.

    This is a horrible mishmash of studies which the author did not understand, or is misconstruing for the most part. She needs to cite references if she wants to cite statistics.

    Gee, maybe because the neutered dogs were older, meaning they'd previously had vaccines. You get your big reaction upon repeating exposure, not upon initial exposure. Note the link with age:
    "Risk was 27% to 38% greater for neutered versus sexually intact dogs and 35% to 64% greater for dogs approximately 1 to 3 years old versus 2 to 9 months old."
    I betcha more of those older dogs were neutered, vs the ones who were a few months old i.e. more neutered dogs had repeated vaccine exposure.

    I'm also sure the authors would be startled to know their article was being "summarized" in this way.

    I can't open this one for some reason, but I think I know the article. It suffers the same problem as others, in that we don't have autopsies on all dogs, and we only have numbers from those who get care for their animals. I do think the evidence for certain things -- like the growth plate closure's link with sex hormones -- is cumulatively growing, but the evidence elsewhere is weak.

    Studies like these --in which old records are examined-- are great for figuring out new lines of inquiry, but should be treated warily as the sole basis for a health decision. These were all dogs attending one hospital in one area, and given that the gene pool of purebred dogs is incredibly narrow, it'd be nice to know if the dogs who developed lymphoma early had a genetic link rather than just had 'neutering' in common. Lots of breeders have s/n contracts, and some don't--could be the dogs had a s/n in common along with a genetic predisposition to lymphoma, something that is already recognized in this breed. Heck, maybe they hit on an environmental hotspot for cancer -- only a further, carefully done prospective study would give more information here.

    In the end, we have the incontrovertible fact that in this country, the #1 cause of death in dogs is overpopulation. More dogs die from lack of homes than die from hip dysplasia, lymphoma, or any other disease. I can't fault shelters and others for choosing the fastest and most foolproof way of making sure that more unwanted litters aren't born.
  10. Adrianna & Calvin Experienced Member

    Bah, sorry, there is a weird unfinished sentence in my first paragraph. It takes much longer to clear a urinary tract infection in an older unneutered dog, with the thought being that the infection 'nests' in the abnormally enlarged prostate that comes with age. So rather than 10-14 days of antibiotics, knowledgeable vets will prescribe up to 6 weeks for intact male dogs. Sorry about the cliffhanger in my first post ;)
  11. threenorns Well-Known Member

    lol - no problem!

    i see what you're saying - but i still do not agree.

    the number one solution to control the pet population is owner responsibility.

    i think pets should be left as intact as possible while removing the possibility of unwanted reproduction. that whole "less is more" thing.
  12. Dogster Honored Member

    Shivon was spayed when she was 2 months old.:( I know, I know, it was way, waaaaaay too early, but there was nothing I could do about it. Shelters here spay and neuter as soon as the dogs come in. So, I didn't have a say.

    I think dogs should be spayed at 8 months and up.
  13. Linda A Experienced Member

    Licensing fees in my town are enough to make you neuter/spay. It's $96 vs $19 a year. And, would you believe, we even have doggy police who go door to door checking? Rediculous!!
  14. Evie Experienced Member

    It's never going to happen. While anyone can obtain a pet, there are ALWAYS going to be irresponsible owners.

    And as Linda said, spayed/neutured pets are so much cheaper to register lol.

    I would never keep a male dog in one piece because I'd always be on edge every time I let him off lead. Too many 'what ifs' involved and far too many consequences. I was always on edge when taking Evie to the dog park before she was de-sexed and I would NEVER feel comfortable taking a full male to a dog park. The fact of the matter is that you can not rely on everyone else being responsible no matter how responsible you are and that's never going to change.

    And with so many irresponsible pet owners out there, I would definitely not be advocating for people to keep their pets 'whole'. We're fighting an uphill battle already, so unless there is overwhelming evidence, from multiple peer-reviewed studies, over a period of time, which can all support the claim that for health reasons male dogs should not be neutured, I for one will continue to support the de-sexing of pets who are not being kept for breeding purposes.

    Just my two cents..
  15. Mr-Remington Experienced Member

    Remi isn't neutered, I won't be doing so until he is fully grown. I think it's better for his health to wait. My roomy and I share ownership of Nash. My roomy is planning to get her fixed as soon as she turns 6 months. I would rather wait until she's fully grown but I respect my roomy's choice. A lot of owners here don't spay/neuter like they should so when we start taking Nash places where other off leash dogs are it will be better to know that she can't get pregnant if something happens.

    Same here! But we don't live that far away from each other lol It's a $100 in my county for unpayed/ neutered dogs to be licenced, and that goes up each year! I believe it's only $16 for animals that are spayed and neutered. We also have the animal control that drives around and goes door to door to see if your pet is fixed.

    I know one person came into the shelter when I was volunteering and they had over $400 worth of fines for just 2 unaltered dogs! It's crazy.
    Dogster and threenorns like this.
  16. threenorns Well-Known Member

    in our town, it's $14 - period, male, female, intact, altered, doesn't matter unless you leave it too late bec after april 1st, it goes up to $19.
  17. southerngirl Honored Member

    Where do you guys live? I don't have to register and pay for my dogs in Georgia(USA)
  18. threenorns Well-Known Member

    i'm in minden, ontario - buying a dog license is SOP; don't worry, your town will get around to it before long lol
  19. Mr-Remington Experienced Member

    I live in Riverside, CA (USA). I'm surprised you don't have to register your dogs. I do agree with threenorns that you will eventually have to get them licensed. Is your town/city small?

    Oh and here in Riverside it's also law that you're pets are microchipped. But they don't enforce that one as much.
  20. Amateur Experienced Member

    AS far as I know in this "Lazy" society of ours - the benefits of early neutering outways the benefits of waiting. Even with responsible pet owners keeping their dogs in check so they dont add to the over population problem - I have been told that even Europe is now having problems due to the variety of cultures and "thoughts" on owning dogs. Some dogs ( Usually pure breds ) may benefit (long bone development etc) from waiting but then again other problems like mammary cancer are more prevalent)

    Zoe was spayed at 8 weeks - and is probably a little taller for that. reason. I really dont have a preference on waiting and would rather not have the inconvenience of "frisky" dogs

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