Hello There

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself' started by Robert Stewart IV, Jan 27, 2012.

  1. Robert Stewart IV New Member

    Hello. My name is Robert, I'm 16 (17 in two weeks), and I am an upcoming trainer in Wichita Falls, Texas. I have been working at a dog kennel for nearly two years and learning training techniques from my boss, who is a former Marine dog handler.
    Now, I mix his Marine Corps and positive reinforcement training (Which seems aggressive*, but is highly effective and not aggressive at all) with a subtler way of training. Whereas he uses one method, I have several I know.
    Once I work a little more with training with my boss, I'm going to start training on my own, keeping all my training "styles" in mind. I think I would be successful if I adapted to the owner, along with the dog. Whereas the "aggressive" style might work for some, a more quiet person may work better with ways known from Victoria Stilwell (It's Me Or The Dog)
    I am fascinated by the mind of the dog, which is why I choose to train. Working at the kennels, I have met several dogs. Some have been pains and others have been joys, but I love all of them.
    Thank you for reading :)
    *the "Aggressive" style does not harm the dog, just startles. The dog is not taught through pain. It's just the tone of the voice and actions that make this an "aggressive" style.

  2. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Welcome! Aggression is NOT needed, nor helpful, for any dog, by any human trainer.

    Getting dogs to do what you want, can be done 100% effectively, without hurting the dog, scaring the dog, intimidating the dog, or any such nonsense.
    YOU'VE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE, please stick around, see how we do it here.

    Almost everyone here, if not everyone here, is positive only, for all of our various types of dogs,
    and all of us have various types of human personalities,
    no one here is using force, intimidation, aggression, fear, punishment, or any such thing, ever, on any of our dogs,
    at least, not that i have noticed. Occasionally, a newcomer might arrive, thinking scaring dogs is the way to get them to "behave" but soon enough, most of them come to a new understanding.

    It's neither helpful, nor necessary. And it can even be dangerous and damaging to the dog's personality or body, or to the human, too.

    If your dog is not doing what you ask, the problem is the trainer needs more knowledge on how to train and motivate dogs,
    and force wont' help at all.
    not at all
    at all.
    Brute force is no substitute for knowledge.

    PLEASE STICK AROUND!!! Do peruse the tricks training and obedience and other dog training forums here on this site, please do stick around!!

    "There is nothing so strong, as gentleness......and there is nothing so gentle as true strength."
    Dlilly likes this.
  3. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Feel free to ask questions! ANY question! If this is a new idea to you,
    that dogs do NOT need force, fear, intimidation, punishment, etc,
    you may have questions, like, "but what about when a dog does this ? or that?"
    kind of questions.

    i've learned a LOT here, bet you can too!
    Dlilly likes this.
  4. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Do you use a clicker yet?
  5. Robert Stewart IV New Member

    I call it aggressive style, but it is not aggressive at all. I thought I had made that clear. It just uses a deep, commanding voice. When the dog is doing something you don't want it to do, you should "Out" and clap your hands. It simulates the mother dog's air snap and warning bark to tell the puppies to "back off"
    I hope this makes things clearer
  6. Robert Stewart IV New Member

    It does not harm the dog at all. No physical harm. After you startle the dog, you reward it for obeying the command of "Don't do that"
  7. mewzard Experienced Member

    Hi Robert!

    It's great that you are going out on your own. This is a brilliant forum and members here use many techniques to teach thier dogs things, most of us have to adapt our methods to our dogs.

    You will find that anything with the word "aggressive" Alpha" "in charge" etc will make people here wary. I totally understood what you were saying but i'm sure you will understand that as dog lovers (as i'm sure you are) we will be wary until we fully understand! :);) There are shocking people in this world and many humans are not nice to dogs!!

    I am more likely to use redirection in the situation you describe, but i can see your method working too. The problem i see with it is that my dog wouldn't think i was "being the mother" just a human making a loud noise....i hold no belief in the idea that my dog sees me as a dog/alpha/mother subsitute.... rather a guide/leader. Thats not to say it doesn't work for other dogs!
    I do X, human makes loud noise, i don't like the loud noise, i won't do X (whilst human can see me).
    It does create results but does it increase the bond with the dog?

    So, Welcome!! Please ask questions and talk to us about things you've been doing.... (y)
    Dlilly likes this.
  8. tx_cowgirl Honored Member

    Welcome Robert!
    Also do please understand that most of us here like to discuss methods, so when we question your methods or our own methods, or suggest another method, please don't feel judged or bombarded. We really are just discussing here. :)

    That being said...
    Even your "out" is somewhat of a correction. Purely positive trainers avoid corrections of any kind, so "bad" behavior is corrected by either redirecting(showing the dog the right behavior to replace the wrong behavior) or being 100% ignored(you get absolutely nothing for doing the wrong behavior). With purely positive training, we attempt to reward the behavior we want 100% of the time and ignore or redirect the behavior we don't want. The behavior that is rewarded gets offered more and more, and the behavior that is not rewarded fades away.

    If you tried your "out" with my dog Zeke, you would get literally nothing out of him. Z would shut down on you and have major stress. Although Z was thoroughly socialized and had no bad experiences with people, he is extremely timid and shy by nature. The day I met him at 3 months old, he would flatten himself to the floor and soil himself if another dog came up to him, and he completely avoided people. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that he started actually greeting strangers of his own volition. Zeke is a lifelong project. :) "Old school" teachings typically tell you that no dog is born with any issues, and that proper training will always create a normal dog. But, it is actually not so in some cases.

    Check out Kikopup's videos on YouTube. Kikopup(Emily Larlam) is a YouTube sensation and is in demand all over the world for her training. She has travelled to several different countries just to train dogs. She has a couple of different videos explaining 100% positive reinforcement training, but unfortunately, I can't find the exact one I'm looking for to show you. :ROFLMAO: Lol. It might be in her introduction video, not sure. Anyway, do check out her videos. She uses no corrections of any kind--nothing physical, verbal, or otherwise.

    Again, don't feel judged or as if we are arguing with you. We're really not. :)
    Welcome to the website!
    Here's Kikopup's intro video...
    Dlilly likes this.
  9. mewzard Experienced Member

    This made me smile Tx, i literally just found and read this article; "normal dogs"
  10. tx_cowgirl Honored Member

    LOL good timing. ^^ Great article! Thanks for sharing.
    Happy to be an "abnormal dog owner." :ROFLMAO:
    mewzard likes this.
  11. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    OH, sorry if i misinterpretted when you said "aggressive style"
    i thought you did mean the word aggressive when you used it.

    And to me, using loud noises to train a dog, is a form of scaring the dog...as is yanking dogs around by their collars, kicking them, grabbing them with your hands, etc etc. (all the dog whisperer's style of rubbish)

    Yes, the stern sound/startling or scaring the dog,
    would not be nearly as helpful to my dog, either.
    WHY would anyone want to do that? When you can get same or better response from the dog without scaring the dog?

    I think it is unnecessary. A dog stopping doing something because he fears being punished with fear-inducing sounds,
    is not the same level of trust you can get with a dog who understands and chooses to go along with the rules without fear. I myself think nothing harms a dog MORE than fear itself.

    Scaring a dog does not teach a dog what it is you DO want them to do instead.

    A happy, well adjusted dog with only 3 legs, is better off than a dog with a mind full of fear.

    My dog has never ever been yelled at, and does anything i ask of him, IF he is able to, and IF he understands what it is i want.
    Most dogs DO want very much to please their human. Getting dogs to do what you want them to, doesnt' really require aggressive "style". It doesn't. DO STICK AROUND, and do check out KIKOPUP on youtube, Tx is right, THAT IS very effective, 100% positive only dog training.

    Here is another way to approach unwanted behaviors in a dog, worth mulling over anyway. This works for my dog. Inducing FEAR in the dog, is not needed. I LIKE THAT YOU ARE FASCINATED WITH THE DOG MIND, :) i am too!!
    and the more you do learn about the dog mind,
    the more you will probably realize,
    scaring dogs:eek: is not helpful to the dog mind.

    Dogster and Dlilly like this.
  12. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    Have you tried a clicker yet?
    I did not want to get "tied to a gizmo" for a long time, others here encouraged me to try it. Wow, was i impressed how much FASTER i can bring my dog to understand what it is i DO want him to do, once i ever tried using a clicker. It wasn't too hard to learn how to "click" properly.

    Most of us here, just reward what we DO want, and ignore or distract away from what we don't want. That's it. It works. Most service dogs are trained this way, too.

    CLICKER training is also how they train the killer whales at SeaWorld............ killer whales would so NOT be impressed with any attempts to 'scare them'.:ROFLMAO: wouldn't work, at all. If you can get a 1 ton giant creature to do what you want with a clicker,
    it's worth trying on a 50 lb dog, too.:D

    mewzard and Dlilly like this.
  13. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    loved that link, Mewzard!
    mewzard likes this.
  14. Dlilly Honored Member

    Welcome to DTA!

    I use Progressive Reinforcement Training with both of my dogs, and my foster dog. Progressive Reinforcement Training simply is where I reward good behaviors, and ignore bad behaviors. I don't use any force or intimidation. Since you are interested in dog training, I would suggest learning more about all positive training. It really does work, and I have a story to prove it! ;)

    Before I started training Shiloh, my 6 year old German Shepherd mix, we could never walk, or bring her anywhere! She was scared of men, and of being in the car. :( After only 1 year of training, using all positive methods, I can now walk her with her barley pulling, I can bring her to Lowes and have her heel, and she isn't as scared of men anymore!! And, she's learned a bunch of cool tricks! :D

    We go to agility classes every Monday, and she is totally focused on me! (Agility classes are nuts. There are dogs barking like crazy in crates, dogs running around on equipment, and there is even a handler in our class who is a man!) Shiloh and I now have an amazing bond, which would never be if I used force and intimidation to train her.

    For more information about Progressive Reinforcement Training, click here. Kikopup, a.k.a, Emily Larlham, created the term. (She is really an amazing trainer!)

    Don't worry, I'm not judging you or anything. I just thought I'd tell you a little bit about my experience with all positive training. :)
    tigerlily46514 likes this.
  15. Robert Stewart IV New Member

    Yes. The whole process helps with the "Co-species line of communication"
  16. tigerlily46514 Honored Member

    How do you know this is true? How do you feel fear increases a dog's bond with a human? Could you at least admit the fear-tactics could be seen as "optional"? That there ARE other ways to approach teaching things to a dog????

    Dogs are almost invariably willing to please his human, if only he knows what it is he should do,
    if only the dog is helped to develop the self control or skills necessary to do what is being asked of him?
    Can you be brought to admit that using "fear" is indeed, "optional"?

    How could that agressive style of "co-species" communication be applied to killer whales?

    Robert, have you yourself trained any dogs? What all tricks do you plan to teach your own dog?
    Have you tried a clicker yet?

    Robert, how do you suppose those humans at Seaworld manage to train those 1-ton killer whales to do what they want the killer whales to do? There's just no way to scare a killer whale...no way at all...still, the killer whales will do what they are asked to do. Interesting to think about, yes?

    Still, i sure hope you do stick around, i sure hope you do!!:)
    Dogster and Dlilly like this.
  17. running_dog Honored Member

    There are some things that you cannot startle or even punish out of a dog. I tried lots of ways to stop my dog chasing deer. I made no progress at all until I tried completely positive redirection. Any correction on any level just reinforces to my dog that he could be having a lot more fun high tailing it over the horizon after the deer.
    Dogster and tigerlily46514 like this.
  18. Dogster Honored Member

    SOO TRUE!!!:ROFLMAO: When my dog counter surfs (sooo annoying) the only thing that works is rederection+positive reinforcement.
  19. Dogster Honored Member

    By the way, intimidations and punishments don't increase the bond with you and your dog. It's true, you have to have authority, but you don't earn it using intimidation techniques. You may find that your dog "listens" more to you, but it can be fear-based. Simple commands, like recall, and even practising tricks, give you authority with your dog. You should try, like Tigerlily said, using a clicker and positive rewards (treats, affection).
    Dlilly likes this.

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