And Cesar Wins Again!

Discussion in 'Dog Behavior Problems' started by threenorns, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. threenorns Well-Known Member

    today i was running a garage sale at my sister's house. naturally, i was scoping the street on the lookout for potential vict--- passersby. an elderly gentlemen was coming our way with one of those little yappers - i didn't have my glasses so they were pretty close before i could determine it was a shi-tzu. when the man saw me, he jerked on the leash - little light quick pops, over and over, saying "no, buster, no. no, don't you dare. buster, stay here". he'd been doing that all the way up the road but when they got close, i could see the little dog flicking toward him every time he leash popped or spoke and the behaviour would get that little bit worse. sometimes it was the whole head making a quick jerk to the side, but more often it was the right ear or the eyes giving a sidelong glance.

    as they drew up, the man said "oh, i love garage sales - i see some very interesting things here but i don't dare come in - he'll bite you."

    i said "i'm very experienced with dogs - if you want, we can talk."

    he said "i don't think there's any hope - we've been to three obedience classes and he's been kicked out of every one because he just won't listen." all this while, he's hauling back on the flexileash and popping it at the same time and his dog is rearing up and choking himself.

    "tell you what, just ease off the leash there. just give him some breathing room. it'll be fine." and i sat down on the ground facing sideways to the dog.

    "i don't want him to bite you - i'm very nervous of that."

    "if he nips me, he nips me - but i have to tell you, i don't think your dog is aggressive. he's loud and he's got bad manners, but he definitely does not want to eat my face. ease off the leash and let him come over. he'll give me a good sniffing over and either he'll rub into me and ask for pets or he'll ignore me and go his own way."

    finally, i convinced him and the minute the tension was off the leash, the dog fully relaxed. his ears went down, his fur went down, and his tail dropped to neutral. i kept facing sideways, not looking at him, but made my voice warmer as i talked to the owner. the dog came up to me, gave me a righteous sniffing, then licked my forearm and carried on to sniff the tree.

    "i don't believe it! it's exactly as you said!"

    i told the guy that it's not about "fixing the dog". i asked him if your car was not doing what you want it to do, what would you do? he said "take it to the mechanic". i said right - the mechanic repairs what's broken or replaces a part or adjusts some settings and the car will return to proper performance.

    "would you take your 2yr old to the doctor if he was not doing what you want?"

    he said "no, i would find out why he is behaving that way."

    i smiled and said "same thing. you cna't take the dog to classes when you are convinced the dog will attack and you don't trust him. he knows you are worried - everything about you says you are frightened. he knows he isn't the problem but you are afraid, so he goes on high alert bec obviously there's a threat somewhere near by. when you haul back on the leash, you are telling him THERE is the threat and he responds."

    we chatted some more and all the while his dog was perfectly normal - sniffing here, piddling there, and rolling in the grass snorting like a little piggy and his tongue lolling out.
    Dlilly, Mutt and brodys_mom like this.

  2. southerngirl Honored Member

    Thank You for helping this guy out. You just made this dogs life and his so much better. I'm not mad at the guy he obviously did not realize how to train the dog, the places he was taking the dog probably had him training her like that. Plus Cesar is on T.V so people see him the T.V makes it seem like it works so they use it. Everyone should be watching Victoria Stilwell Not Cesar!!
    Mutt and brodys_mom like this.
  3. threenorns Well-Known Member

    on the contrary - he was warned away from Cesar so never even gave him a try. I'm a huge Cesar fan.
  4. 648117 Honored Member

    I don't really see where Cesar comes into this at all. Doesn't seem relevant.
    Dlilly and brodys_mom like this.
  5. threenorns Well-Known Member

    bec everything i did and said is what i learned from cesar.

    i'm very familiar with tamar geller, cesar, and brad pattison. couldn't stand victoria stillwell - her attitude put me off plus i found it a bit hypocritical that she didn't own dogs herself (she only just recently got one).

    tamar geller is wonderful - but not if your dog has serious issues like biting ppl.

    brad pattison, i wouldn't pee on if he was on fire.

    cesar is what worked for me and what worked for mister bitey.
    Mutt likes this.
  6. southerngirl Honored Member

  7. threenorns Well-Known Member

    i read that thread and the majority of bashing posts are actually and factually wrong.

    the dog jonbee, for example - this is from the owners followup:

    iirc, the owner was not in good health and just controlling the dog was a problem. if they couldn't get the dog under control, they were going to have to surrender him to a shelter and bec of his violence, he would've been put down.

    cesar is not appropriate for teaching tricks or basic obedience in a normal, non-issued dog any more than a drill sergeant is needed to teach gym to a class of normal school kids.
  8. threenorns Well-Known Member

    the guy with the shi-tzu, he's been to three different training classes but bec his dog kept going after the other dogs and after the trainer, they were kicked out. walks are very short bec the owner is so afraid of his dog going after someone, which happens *every time* so naturally this increases the dog's frustration.

    the reason the classes didn't work (i told him) is because they're all about "fixing the dog". there's no point teaching the dog a new way of being if you're going to treat him the same old, same old. the dog's not broken - the relationship between you is what is damaged and when you fix that, the dog will settle down.

    THAT is what i learned from cesar.
  9. 648117 Honored Member

    I disagree. That is not the reason I would offer for the class not working.
    I would suggest he was in the completely wrong class in the first place. From my experience (although admittedly, so far limited, but I feel still valid) is that "training classes" are generally not appropriate for dealing with behavioural problems at all. Just because a trainer can train a dog to heel, do tricks, sit etc etc does not mean they are qualified to give any advice or direction regarding behaviour (dog behaviour and dog training are very different things in my opinion).
    Most training classes deal with "normal" dogs with owners that just want to teach a few basic commands so they can live peacefully with their dog. This is not right/enough for all dogs. Some dogs need to see a behaviourist rather than a trainer. They need someone who understands dog behaviour (not just how to train them) and is qualified to help owners work with their dog through behavioural issues.

    I still don't understand what this has to do with Cesar though.
    There are many excellent dog behaviourist that would also deal with that dog differently than the "training classes" did, he is not unique. And I don't understand why someone would keep taking their dog to a similar situtation ("training classes") and expect a different result when nothing has changed. Of course if the dog couldn't handle being in a room with so many dogs (was over threashold) it would not be able to handle it the second or third time if the owner had done nothing to help the dog, it could even make the dog worse.

    But good on you for giving that little dog the time and space that it needed (y)

    PS. Please don't have this attitude towards little dogs : "an elderly gentlemen was coming our way with one of those little yappers". Just like people take offence if you judge Pitbulls by their breed, you should not judge small dogs by their size either.
    Dlilly, Dogster, Mutt and 3 others like this.
  10. threenorns Well-Known Member

    i wasn't referring to the breed - i mean literally "little yapper", as in "bawawawawa!!!" all the way down the street. lily, too, is a little yapper otherwise they're little fluffballs or floor mops. unlike the big dogs, it's virtually impossible for me to tell the small breeds apart (plus so many of them are "designer" mutts these days).

    i totally agree - i can't help but think it was bordering on fraud to take his money if they knew his dog was going to have issues in the first place (and he told them what the problems were he's having and was assured obedience would fix it).

    because cesar isn't about "fixing the dog" - he's about fixing yourself so you can guide the dog to a more appropriate behaviour. other trainers focus on the dog, the dog, the dog - gotta fix the dog, teach the dog, discipline the dog, reassure the dog. cesar is the only one that points the finger at the owner and says before you go cleaning up the dog's back yard, you have to fix your own first. i could take that guy's dog and have it happy, secure, and non-bitey - but as soon as he goes back to his owner, he'll revert if the owner is still acting/reacting in the same old ways.

    because nobody told him he wasn't doing the right thing - he saw it as more taking the car to the mechanic to get fixed than taking the child to the doctor to find out what is wrong. when i told him it's not about "owning" the dog like you own your car or your couch, it's about parenting a toddler, he immediately saw what i was getting at.

    brodys_mom likes this.
  11. threenorns Well-Known Member

    he came by again, this time with his wife, asking if i could "do that thing again". she won't walk the dog at all - she's a bitty thing and every time Buster goes after someone, she panics.

    i could totally see the difference in the dog - he was WAY more tense today than sunday, probably due to Anne's emotional turbulence and maybe also because they have to walk so slowly when she's along (she uses her husband's arm for stability).

    it took longer this time, too - i told them that was to be expected and no worries - but after a few minutes, Buster came over and sniffed me a good one, then leaned up against my side. this time, i brought my hand in from the side and gave him a good chest rub. he didn't do the leg-jiggy-flop-on-the-back thing which would've been cool, but he sat there with his eyes squinting and his tongue lolling out of a happy smile.

    Anne got all weepy - so i suggested they look up an actual behaviourist "not just a trainer - a trainer is for tricks. what you need to build communication between you and your pup. later, you can make with the tricks."

    i had him sit, lay down, and shake a paw (used luring for sit and lay down, and capture for the paw thing, since they're all natural dog behaviours anyway). i said "he hasn't learned those tricks - they're all things he does anyway. i just was able to communicate to him what i wanted from him."

    a kid went by on a skateboard and i could see Buster was going to go after him so i just lightly touched him on his butt and said "hey". when he whipped his head around to look at me (they thought he was going to bite) i said "good boy!" and gave him a treat.
    brodys_mom likes this.
  12. Mutt Experienced Member

    Oliver from sara doesn't completely agree on that :D (sorry totally of topic but I immediately thought of this one)

    (at 0.24)

    I also completely agree with 648117 (I guess cesar is involved as threenorns used the following title: And Cesar wins again).

    Also I'm one of those anti-CM people, but that is for another time (arguments can be read in the thread posted by SG).

    Glad you could help this man and his dog out though.

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